Belgian Pannier Tanks

[844fan]

Again not 100% on weather this is the correct area to post this. Let me know and I'll move it if needed.

 

Ok I have been looking for information on these locos for nearly ten years now and I've found out a bit more about them.

 

First one I've been looking for is of Etat Belge No. 811. This engine I found in the back of a old Molding book I used to check out of my Library as a child (Now own a copy of it) and I know it was modeled by Dennis Allenden in O scale. From what I gather it was featured in Model Railways magazine back in 1974. I live in the US so I'm not sure how to go about getting back issues of the publication. Anyone by chance have a link to the full article?

I don't know if Allenden gave the plans out but I really want to find out more on this class of engines. One of the main reasons is it's a Pannier tank not of the GWR and two she at first glance looks like a 0-6-0 but between her middle and rear drivers there is a Pony truck that gives added support to her Firebox.

I found this if it helps: http://anarchadia.blogspot.com/2011/02/confusing-hell-out-of-white-notation.html

The other Pannier isn't quite as hard to find out about nor is she quite as oddball since she is a true 0-6-0. This little loco is a Type 51 shunter class. Their is one in preservation No. 1152 and I think she is in a museum in France as she was sent there during the war.

Beyond the pictures of the two engines I still can't find any info on her like tractive effort or wheel diameter. So any help in finding this would be very welcome.

[EddieB]

Sorry, this is a little rushed, I should be able to give more information when time permis.

 

As you're finding the GWR didn't have a monopoly on pannier tanks.  Aside from Belgium, panniers could also be found in Spain and Turkey (and probably other places too).

 

I well remember the Dennis Allenden series of articles - "Ay, Marieke" being the title of the one which I think relates to the loco in question.  I have it somewhere and will PM you a scan when I can find it.

 

The preserved class 51 0-6-0PT has, for a long time, been kept in the museum store at Leuven.  I think I saw it there on a rushed tour in 1997, when it was hemmed in and screened off making photography all but impossible.  The Belgians are creating a new railway museum at Brussel-Schaerbeek (except that the opening date keeps getting pushed back), so hopefully it will be put on display there in a place where it can be inspected and photographed.

 

No. 1152 was built by Evrard (which became Franco Belge) in 1879.  It spent some time in industrial service at Carbonisation Terte, before being set aside for preservation.

 

No. 811 was also built by Evrard, in 1873.  Originally E.B. type 3, it was rebuilt with a trailing carrying axle in 1878, and reclassified as type 4.  The notation tends to be problemmatic - I've seen it styled at "1+Ct" ("1+C1t" after rebuilding) or "Cat" in the French system.

 

If you can bear with me, I have some dimensioned drawings of types 3, 4 and 51 that I can look out for you.

[844fan]

Sorry, this is a little rushed, I should be able to give more information when time permis.

 

As you're finding the GWR didn't have a monopoly on pannier tanks.  Aside from Belgium, panniers could also be found in Spain and Turkey (and probably other places too).

 

I well remember the Dennis Allenden series of articles - "Ay, Marieke" being the title of the one which I think relates to the loco in question.  I have it somewhere and will PM you a scan when I can find it.

 

The preserved class 51 0-6-0PT has, for a long time, been kept in the museum store at Leuven.  I think I saw it there on a rushed tour in 1997, when it was hemmed in and screened off making photography all but impossible.  The Belgians are creating a new railway museum at Brussel-Schaerbeek (except that the opening date keeps getting pushed back), so hopefully it will be put on display there in a place where it can be inspected and photographed.

 

No. 1152 was built by Evrard (which became Franco Belge) in 1879.  It spent some time in industrial service at Carbonisation Terte, before being set aside for preservation.

 

No. 811 was also built by Evrard, in 1873.  Originally E.B. type 3, it was rebuilt with a trailing carrying axle in 1878, and reclassified as type 4.  The notation tends to be problemmatic - I've seen it styled at "1+Ct" ("1+C1t" after rebuilding) or "Cat" in the French system.

 

If you can bear with me, I have some dimensioned drawings of types 3, 4 and 51 that I can look out for you.

This is a nice supprise. Take your time I'm in hurry I'm glad that the infor mation wasn't as rare as I'd thought.

 

Hmm Sad you couldn't get any photos when you went to Leuven.

 

I'll have to check out the Spanish and Turkish ones as well.

 

I fully understand on the rushing I'm a bit busy helping my father so no rush can't wait to see the articles and drawings.

[EddieB]

As far as that period of experimentation under Belpaire, the Type 3 with its extra carrying axle was perhaps one of his more conventional designs.  For further and extreme oddities check out this page: http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/belgian/belgian.htm particularly loco no. 1452.

 

The rebuilt 811 differed from the other Type 4 locos in that it appears to have retained its pannier tanks.  The Type 4 new builds had elongated side tanks that looked like pre-dated Lego. 

 

For a standard work of reference on Belgian steam, I would recommend "Vapeur en Belgique" (2 volumes) by Phil Dambly.  These books are an enlargement of the author's earlier "Nos Inoubliables 'Vapeur'", with volume I covering the Etat Belge and absobed companies of the pre-WWI period.  The books are full of illustrations (French text) and well worth hunting down at a resonable price.

 

On the subject of exotic pannier tanks, here is a more conventional example.  It was built in Belgium, by Haine St Pierre in 1910 (and displayed at the Brussels Expo of the same year) and supplied to FC Langreo in Spain.(Asturias)  What is perhaps most unusual - for Spain - is that FC Langreo was laid to standard gauge (the only steam-worked standard gauge passenger carrying railway in that country).  It is seen in its preserved state at the Asturias Railway Museum, Gijon.  (Great Western followers will no doubt be reassured to see that the fronts of the pannier tanks are painted black!)

[bbishop]

There is a photo of 51.024 on page 22 of The Last Steam Locomotives of Western Europe by P Ransome-Wallis.

 

Bill

[844fan]

As far as that period of experimentation under Belpaire, the Type 3 with its extra carrying axle was perhaps one of his more conventional designs.  For further and extreme oddities check out this page: http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/belgian/belgian.htm particularly loco no. 1452.

 

The rebuilt 811 differed from the other Type 4 locos in that it appears to have retained its pannier tanks.  The Type 4 new builds had elongated side tanks that looked like pre-dated Lego. 

 

For a standard work of reference on Belgian steam, I would recommend "Vapeur en Belgique" (2 volumes) by Phil Dambly.  These books are an enlargement of the author's earlier "Nos Inoubliables 'Vapeur'", with volume I covering the Etat Belge and absobed companies of the pre-WWI period.  The books are full of illustrations (French text) and well worth hunting down at a resonable price.

 

On the subject of exotic pannier tanks, here is a more conventional example.  It was built in Belgium, by Haine St Pierre in 1910 (and displayed at the Brussels Expo of the same year) and supplied to FC Langreo in Spain.(Asturias)  What is perhaps most unusual - for Spain - is that FC Langreo was laid to standard gauge (the only steam-worked standard gauge passenger carrying railway in that country).  It is seen in its preserved state at the Asturias Railway Museum, Gijon.  (Great Western followers will no doubt be reassured to see that the fronts of the pannier tanks are painted black!)

Oh indeed I've seen that site and do enjoy the oddities that are discussed over there. The Blue Angel Single was a interesting sight to see in a OO model.

 

Lego like tanks huh? May be a thing I take a very close look at. Collecting Legos is another of my hobbies. But not as big as Railways.

 

Hmm I do wish I had had more than a semester of French in Junior High. It wasn't offered in any form in High School so that was out. I'll see if I can find a copy of these books. May come in handy to detailing at least.

 

Thats a adorable little engine there. Reminds me of a few LGB models I've seen though I suspect those are of Narrow Gauge and not Standard. Still a nice looking little engine.

 

Oh I forgot to ask in my Pm do you by chance have any front and back views of the locos we were discussing there?

 

There is a photo of 51.024 on page 22 of The Last Steam Locomotives of Western Europe by P Ransome-Wallis.

 

Bill

I'll look into that one. Thanks Bill. I do hope I can actually get it last book I wanted from the UK couldn't be shipped over and unless I miss my guess this was first made there.

[EddieB]

 

 

Oh I forgot to ask in my Pm do you by chance have any front and back views of the locos we were discussing there?

 

Afraid not - the drawings only cover side elevations.

 

[Edit]

 

The web doesn't seem to have many old photos of Belgian locomotives - however this site looks promising (with a E-B Type 4 - complete with "Lego" side tanks on the page linked): http://rixke.tassignon.be/spip.php?article461&lang=fr&artpage=3-3.  (It appears to be excerpts from Dambly's "Nos Inoubliables 'Vapeur'").

[844fan]

Afraid not - the drawings only cover side elevations.

 

[Edit]

 

The web doesn't seem to have many old photos of Belgian locomotives - however this site looks promising (with a E-B Type 4 - complete with "Lego" side tanks on the page linked): http://rixke.tassignon.be/spip.php?article461&lang=fr&artpage=3-3.  (It appears to be excerpts from Dambly's "Nos Inoubliables 'Vapeur'").

Sad but not a problem. Thanks I'll try my best to approximate the missing elevations.

 

I shall take a good look at that page.