Pre-TOPS 47 in BR Blue, High Dyke Line

[Down_Under]

Hi All,

 

My knowledge of Class 47s is very limited. The area and line that I am beginning to model is in and around the High Dyke in the early 70s. A number of Pre-TOPS, BR blue, with head code boxes class 47 where used on line to haul iron ore trains. I was planning on modelling one of these two locomotives, that appear to frequent the line

 

D1515 (Became 47/416)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5537932602/in/set-72157626169910951

 

OR

 

D1569 (Became 47/4 # 47452)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/10523820683/

 

My first question is, in their Pre-TOPS BR blue livery, where they still 47/0 or had they been converted to ETH and become 47/4's?

 

Secondly, I am not sure on the best model to start with for my prototype. I know that the roofline grille changed from shutters/louvers to a mesh - I am not sure when this happened, and on what locomotives. From my initial research, I would be best to start with a Bachmann 2-tone Green, which represents the 47/0 e.g. D1764 http://ekmpowershop4.com/ekmps/shops/morrismodels/images/Bachmann-32-801-class-47-2-tone-green-with-full-yellow-ends-1764-209-p.jpg 

 

I have based this on the fact that is has the headcode box still working, and the louver roof vents. I am not sure if this was one of the models that suffers from the incorrect bogies or not. 

 

I am of course happy to use another manfactures model, if one is more correct than this to start from. I am aware of some of the inconsistencies, of other models - Helijan - 2mm to wide etc, but I am happy to mix and match chassis and bodies to get the right look. 

 

Thanks in advance for your help,

 

James

 

EDIT - to answer some of my own questions, I found here; http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_numbers.php?index=2 although there is some conflicting information

 

D1515 was built as a 47/4 with ETS (ETH?), Fixed three-part grilles, conflicting braking - vacuum only and westinghouse, but also built with Spanner Mk3.

D1569 converted from 47/0, Serck radiator shutters, dual braked? Also states built with fixed 3 part grille, and spanner Mk3. Crashed out at Morpeth 1984.

D1534 converted from 47/0, Fixed three-part grilles, Metcalfe-Oerlikon braking?

 

Did the braking equipment effect the fuel tank set up? I notice that they have different braking systems. And on receiving TOPS numbers was this when conversions where carried out? Did they blank of the Spanner boilers at this stage/remove them?

Edited April 29, 2015 by Down_Under

[Phil Bullock]

Hi there

 

Bachmann has done 3 models in this area that may help you

 

Things to watch out for are the fixed grilles v serck and boiler ports - apart from hoses on the buffer beam nowt else was visible externally with the addition of air brakes IIRC.

 

Which locos has Bacchy done that might help you?

 

32-800 D1500 - TTG with fixed 3 part grilles

 

32-805 D1547 - BFYE with fixed 3 part grille

 

32-804 D1572 - TTG with fixed 3 part grille

 

All of these have the same round boiler port as D1764 so assuming Bacchy got it right then the D1764 shell would do for an AB Serck version of any of the locos you mention - except I think there is something different about the cantrail grilles of D1500-1519, am sure others with a better memory will be along to advise on that

 

Think it unlikely that any of the boiler fitted 47s would have had their boilers blanked off in this era - 68 - 73 essentially, the same as the one we model - as they were still very much mixed traffic locos

 

Hope that helps

 

Phil

[Down_Under]

Thanks Phil,

 

Bachmann 32-803 Class 47/0 41 148?

 

Both of these seem to have the 3 fixed grilles, and are in the early BR blue livery.

 

What was the purpose of the Serck grilles? I have read this is something to do with the brakes - air braked versions? Or more specifically a type of air braked version?

 

From the prototype photos it looks like a 3 fixed grille version - although it is only one side in the photos.

 

Last question for now - did some loose the fixed grilles and gain Serck grilles later in life?

Edited April 29, 2015 by Down_Under

[Phil Bullock]

Hi again

Yup thats the same body shell too.

 

Serck grilles were designed to give better control of coolant temperatures as they opened and closed to help regulate this and also presumably to help protect against freezing - original 3 grilles were fixed. 

 

All locos that were built with the 3 fixed grilles were subsequently converted to Serck - often but not always at the same time as they acquired blue and air brakes

 

Photos will be a great help in selecting your loco to model - http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_intro_v2.php is a great starting point if you havent already seen it, along with Flikr, smugmug and photos on this forum

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

[Phil Bullock]

And have now reminded myself of the cantrail grille differences

 

D1500-19 were different to the rest in this respect - look at all other class members you will see two finer ribs in each cantrail grille section between the main members, the first 20 lack these.

 

Unfortunately the Bacchy D1500 is wrong as it has these two finer ribs - but depends how picky you want to be. They are clearly visible on this nicely weathered example - but that makes the body shell correct in this respect at least for later locos.

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Bachmann+D1500&view=detailv2&&&id=90F6A7453CB3F1628B986C69D792F421212BA786&selectedIndex=2&ccid=gUwzX3c1&simid=607995223081224888&thid=JN.9oagJkeiLKHSHIfApTlWrw&ajaxhist=0

 

Of the Bacchy locos, I reckon D1547 is your best bet for an accurate loco that could have appeared on the High Dyke Branch - she was a Tinsley Loco 69 - 71.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6263063125/in/set-72157627649152349

 

http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=0925020503000

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

Edited April 29, 2015 by Phil Bullock

[Down_Under]

Hi Phil,

 

Thanks for your help and the website link and the detail differences. I had found the link to super detailed class 47, and I understand the difference about the cantrail grilles. So, D1547 it is! Looks like I could also legitimately renumber to D1569 if I felt like it too.

 

I not that the Class 31 on this line all had tablet catching gear fitted, but the Class 47 never did seem to have any. Does this suggest that this was out of use the time the 47's came onto the scene?

 

Cheers,

 

James

[Phil Bullock]

Have you seen this thread?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-1st-may/page-123

 

DaveF's photos are awesome and lots of High Dyke included if you wade through

 

As you say the batch of 40B brush type 2 s had tablet catchers but others certainly worked the line too. Like you never seen a Brush 4 with a catcher.

 

CHeers

 

Phil

Edited May 1, 2015 by Phil Bullock

[DaveF]

Have you seen this thread?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-1st-may/page-123

 

DaveF's photos are awesome and lots of High Dyke included if you wade through

 

Phil

 

 

There are also several sets of my High Dyke photos on flickr, at:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets/?&page=1

 

The High Dyke albums are on pages 1 and 2, there should be three albums in all.

 

David

[Down_Under]

Thanks for the info Phil and David.

 

Yes, I've seen the DaveF thread, that's what gave me the inspiration! I've a 31 I'm preparing and I've a 47 (I've orderedD1547).

 

Were the Serck grilles on one side only, or both sides? Reason I ask is that (D)1569 falls into the fitted with Serck grilles from new, but photos I've seen don't show it fitted with Serck grilles until it became 47452. wondered if I'd only seen it photo'd from one side.

 

J

[Phil Bullock]

Never heard of a loco with sercks on one side only - its a complete cooler group unit so both sides would have to change

 

See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/63406-them-serck-shutters-dont-get-it/for some excellent further gen

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[Phil Bullock]

Hi James

 

1569 wasn't built with serck grilles see https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6263064059/in/set-72157627649152349

 

So the D1547 shell is correct for the loco in this period as has the original 3 grilles

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

Edited May 5, 2015 by Phil Bullock

[Down_Under]

Thanks Phil,

 

I got myself into a little bit of a cinfused state having misread some data on class47.co.uk. plus the photos do not lie!

 

Many thanks for your help!

 

Is there anything I need to be wary of when it comes to underframe detail? I imagine they would still be pretty standard at this point in their lives?

 

"Brakes (as built) ~ Metcalfe-Oerlikon - Vacuum only" are Metcalfe-Oerlikon not air brakes? Looks here to have air (right hand side [of photo]) and vacuum and steam heat on the left ?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/10523820683/sizes/l

 

James

 

 

 

 

 

[Phil Bullock]

Left to right as we are looking at the loco the hoses are

 

Air

 

Vac brake

 

Coupling

 

Steam Heat

 

Air

 

No train air brake in that photo - the air pipes are for controlling the fuel rack and air brakes on other locos when coupled - not sure which is which, this may help.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/35527-vac-steam-air-pipe-fittings-colours/

 

Loco brakes would be air - train brakes vacuum. Have a look at http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=class+47+buffer+beam+hoses&view=detailv2&&&id=333DA614CD66D36A1C1CCF9642E46A6DD2719164&selectedIndex=168&ccid=IO8rnXNu&simid=608035801930336816&thid=JN.e9XSZgPumXrXQtfQgOwQRg&ajaxhist=0- the train air brake hose is above the steam heat hose, this loco also has ETH cable on right

 

Confusing isn't it?

 

Phil

[Down_Under]

Thanks Phil,

 

Confusing - slightly - not helped by my misunderstanding of loco air brakes and and train air brakes!  Thanks Again. It seems that most of the locos that worked the High Dyke branch were all Immingham locos between 67-73 or thereabouts.

 

James

[Down_Under]

Slightly off topic - A possible reason that the 47's did not have tablet catchers on the high dyke line - they did not need them? The 31's ((D)5671,72,73, 74 and 75) seem to have operated on the Kettering to Cambridge line also - here is some evidence of the tablets being in use http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/21206-northants-beds-early-70s-photos/page-2

[russ p]

To revive an old thread, a we saying to renumber 47148 as a pre TOPS blue loco 1547 and 1569 are the only suitable ones

Were and any locos dual braked with three piece grilles other than first 20

[Phil Bullock]

Hi folks

 

Have subsequently discovered the cooling grilles on the Bacchy 47s are removable! So a swap from fixed to Serck or vice versa on any shell should be feasible...

 

1684

 

http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=5021051007200

 

and 1696

 

http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=1133051001200

 

Are certainly other candidates from a 47148 bodyshell - 3 piece grilles and spanner boiler - and there must be others, but VB only....and not that likely to appear on High Dyke as not ER locos but never say never...

 

I think locos built with 3 piece fixed grilles (with the exception of D1500-19) were VB only until sercks were fitted - but I could be corrected!

 

Phil

[russ p]

I'm not having them on High Dyke but GE mainline or cross country services on Saturdays to Yarmouth

[Phil Bullock]

Ah there you go then Russ - cross countrys a go-er!

 

Phil

[russ p]

Do you know when 1696 went blue? As I've got a Heljan twin arrowed one

[buritonhampshire]

Hi folks

 

Have subsequently discovered the cooling grilles on the Bacchy 47s are removable! So a swap from fixed to Serck or vice versa on any shell should be feasible...

 

 

Are certainly other candidates from a 47148 bodyshell - 3 piece grilles and spanner boiler - and there must be others, but VB only....and not that likely to appear on High Dyke as not ER locos but never say never...

 

I think locos built with 3 piece fixed grilles (with the exception of D1500-19) were VB only until sercks were fitted - but I could be corrected!

 

Phil

 

Hadn't looked at removing the grilles - will go back to that!

 

As I understood it there were a small number dual-braked which gave trouble (overheating or something similar) with the original 3 panel arrangement. The fitting of the 2 piece Serck shutters were a solution to the problem by re-arranging the internal layout of equipment. Of course, the change-over took place in the middle of production runs and was not a clear break in number order. The Western region 'named' locos from Crewe were affected by this and it is problematical to work out which were delivered with which arrangement!

 

The excellent Class 47 Data File series is a help but, as of my last check, the volume dealing with this batch is still being updated awaiting reprint. The group are usually at Ally Pally so I'll have to have a look next month

 

Roger

[jonny777]

Do you know when 1696 went blue? As I've got a Heljan twin arrowed one

 

 

Hmmmm, 

 

D1696 must have gone blue quite early, because a photo on the class47 website shows it in blue livery by Jan 1969, and it has one central arrows. 

[Phil Bullock]

Hmmmm, 

 

D1696 must have gone blue quite early, because a photo on the class47 website shows it in blue livery by Jan 1969, and it has one central arrows

 

Yup that'll be the one I linked to in post 17!

 

And then theres also D1725

 

http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=0934000061000

 

And of course D1733 in her unique BSYP

 

http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=0821050000200

 

Phil

[jonny777]

Yup that'll be the one I linked to in post 17!

 

 

Phil

 

 

Oh yes, so it is!

 

Another senior moment I'm afraid. 

 

 

Edited, to add that I am somewhat surprised to see that number of boiler fitted Brush 4s on the High Dyke trains, because when I saw the mainline versions (mostly at Grantham or Barkston) they were regularly in the hands of Tinsley based non-boilered examples, later 47/3; or Brush type 2s. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by jonny777

[slilley]

Hadn't looked at removing the grilles - will go back to that!

 

As I understood it there were a small number dual-braked which gave trouble (overheating or something similar) with the original 3 panel arrangement. The fitting of the 2 piece Serck shutters were a solution to the problem by re-arranging the internal layout of equipment. Of course, the change-over took place in the middle of production runs and was not a clear break in number order. The Western region 'named' locos from Crewe were affected by this and it is problematical to work out which were delivered with which arrangement!

 

The excellent Class 47 Data File series is a help but, as of my last check, the volume dealing with this batch is still being updated awaiting reprint. The group are usually at Ally Pally so I'll have to have a look next month

 

Roger

 

The book Class 47 50 Years of Locomotive History goes into great detail about the changes made to equip the Brush Type 4s with both train vacuum and air brakes, including which batches were equipped with which from new. Early dual brake locos had the original fixed grilles, but this was then altered to what we are now familiar with.

 

Simon