GNR (Ireland) VS Class 4-4-0 - a Skritchbuild in 4mm

[Horsetan]

....The wheelsets are trial fitted to the frames. I'm using Exactoscale wheels for the first time. These have the plus point that  they can be built to 21mm gauge just using the standard components as supplied......

 

Judging by the visible webbing, I see you elected to use the GW "King" driving wheel....

[de Selby]

Judging by the visible webbing, I see you elected to use the GW "King" driving wheel....

 

Indeed. These were the closest available when diameter, number of spokes and crank throw were considered. Before they are finally fitted, the plan is to carefully remove said webbing, (which does slightly gives the game away!)

[Horsetan]

Indeed. These were the closest available when diameter, number of spokes and crank throw were considered....

 

Would it not have been easier to use a GW Castle wheel?

[de Selby]

And so, on to the tender. The last generation of GN tenders took their design cues from the later LMS tenders, and there were a number of comments about the GN's "Stanier pattern tenders" in the railway press at the time they appeared.

The VS tender is very nearly a match for the "Ivatt Part Welded" tender of this type (available from Comet), and I did seriously consider modifying one of these. The main differences are in the drop down at the rear of the sides (the VS tender is slightly taller here), the width (the VS tender tank is slightly narrower) and the rivetting (the VS tender has a couple of extra rivet seams).

In the end I decided to built the tender from scratch.

I found that the tender underframes provided on the V class etches could be used for the VS, thus saving some work. I'd always thought that the VS tenders had a longer wheelbase than the earlier tenders, but it turns out that the wheelbase was the same, although the overhang at either end was greater.

Here are the two tender frames. The rear bearings are fixed, the front and middle will use High Level hornblocks, seen here, which went together very easily.

The plan is to build the tender with split axle pick up. Here the frames are attached to a PCB strip base which has a slit up the centre to isolate the two sides.

For the tender body, two sheets of 0.10" Nickel Silver were soldered together, and the relevant part of the drawing was photocopied and glued to the metal.

The various parts were then cut out with a fretsaw.....

... the two halves were then unsoldered where appropriate, giving two identical sides (for example.) The rivet detail has been added to the sides.  

The tender frames are assembled ......

...... followed by the tender top

Alan
 

[de Selby]

Would it not have been easier to use a GW Castle wheel?

I wanted to try out Exactoscale wheelsets on the recommendation of a couple of the members of the local S4 group, who had used them in their own locos. There isn't a Castle wheel in the Exactoscale range (or if there is it is not advertised on the C&L website), so the choice was between the wheels I used or the LNER 6'8" wheel. Other manufacturers (Gibson, Ultrascale) can of course supply Castle wheels (or possibly other wheels which may also be suitable). Tony Miles once told me that he had used Castle wheels for his S Class 4-4-0s. I believe he used the originally available P4 wheels (Studiolith?) which i *think* (though I am not sure) eventually evolved into the Gibson range.

[John M]

It was kind of forced upon me as the method of fixing provided wouldn't have worked - one drawback might be if the nuts holding on the underkeeps start to work loose in traffic. Does anyone make 14BA spring washers?!

You might need to consider Loctite 'thread lock". Bachmann small fitted bolts for similar purposes on large (garden) scale locos with sprung drivers, I haven't had any working loose in traffic.

 

It almost looks like it would have been simpler and possibly quicker to have started from scratch rather than modify a Compound kit.

 

I was disappointed you did not go into more detail on how you cut out and riveted the tender sides.

[Horsetan]

..... simpler and possibly quicker to have started from scratch rather than modify a Compound kit......

An advantage of starting with the V kit was that at least it gave him a chassis, plus the various detail castings.

 

I don't see SSM coming out with a VS kit, do you?

[de Selby]

It almost looks like it would have been simpler and possibly quicker to have started from scratch rather than modify a Compound kit.

 I can't say I agree.

 

There are, I think, two aspects to this:

 

Firstly, the V and the VS are essentially two versions the same basic loco - the VS being an updated design to meet the requirements of the post-war environment. So compounding was abandoned and replaced with simple expansion and three sets of Walchaert's gear. A self trimming, roller bearing tender closely based on then current LMS practice was fitted. Rocking grates, hopper ashpans & self cleaning smokeboxes were provided (hence the longer smokebox). But in terms of basic dimensions the locos were the same and there were many common parts.

 

So it is not like taking a kit for a completely unrelated locomotive and trying to make it into a VS.

 

 

Secondly, here is a list of the components I was actually able to use from the V kit:

 

Mainframes & spacers. Front bogie & compensating system. Front and rear buffer beams and running plate extensions. Boiler, firebox, & smokebox (except wrapper). Cab, including interior & Backhead. Splashers & mechanical lubricators. Most fittings (including chimney, dome, safety valves, smokebox door, sandboxes & buffers). Coupling rods, connecting rods, crossheads & slidebars. All brakegear. Tender mainframes.

 

While it would undoubtedly be possible to scratchbuild some or all of the above, it would take very much longer to complete the project.

I'm experiencing this phenomenon at first hand while scratchbuilding the tender, where I not only have to assemble the parts, but also make them in the first place!

 

I don't see SSM coming out with a VS kit, do you?

I agree it doesn't seem that likely at the present time. I would never say never, though.

 

One possibility might be for someone to produce an etched "conversion kit" consisting of tender, running plate, cab front, smokebox wrapper, cylinders and valve gear. If I ever find time to get up to speed with a drawing or CAD program, you never know .....

 

 

I was disappointed you did not go into more detail on how you cut out and riveted the tender sides.

I have previously described using the rivet embossing tools which I have, but I'm happy to do so again if there is interest. I have two different tools, one by GW models and one by Metalsmith. I've found one to be better for certain jobs, and the other for other types of jobs.

 

I actually now have most of the parts made for a second tender, so I can put together a post with some photos illustrating the rivetters in use.

 

Finally, progress on the loco & tender continues but has now reached the stage where most of the major components now exist and many of the tasks don't result in big physical changes. I am currently working on the tender - the idea being to have it mostly complete before finishing off the loco. There is method in this madness, honest! I will post some new photos hopefully soon.

 

Alan

 

 

[de Selby]

As mentioned above, work is concentrating on the tender at the moment.

Here, the springing is fitted to the front two tender axles. The drawbar will be arranged to load the weight of the tender on to the rear of the locomotive. These springs are fairly light, therefore, and serve to keep the tender wheels in contact with the rails.

The beading is added around the tender top using soft copper wire. The beading on the real thing was fairly flat in profile, so the wire will be filed down to represent this.

For the drive arrangement in this loco, I'm going to try the arrangement used with great success by Tony Miles in his locos. Others have successfully used this since (for example the 3mm scale locos on Ballyconnell Road), so the system definitely works. The big question is if I can get it to work for me.

A large motor is located in the tender and drives the loco wheels via a long shaft and universal joints.

For my version of the system I am using a High Level gearbox and the included remote drive extensions. The gearbox drives the rear wheels of the loco. The drive shaft will go out through the firehole door and enter the tender via the shovel plate.

Adding some of the detail to the tender.

The footsteps for the loco and tender, photocopies glued to a double thickness of nickel silver sheet....

..... then cut out with a fretsaw.

Tender front ....

....and rear.

 

Alan
 

[John M]

Excellent stuff, I had almost forgotten about using soft wire as beading. I am tempted to try the motor in the tender as opposed to the firebox when I get around to my next loco.

 

Are you planning to follow Tony Mile's practice and rely on pick up on the tender?

[de Selby]

I once before attempted such an arrangement on an LMS "Crab". It wasn't a great success and eventually I replaced it with a motor (& High Level gearbox) in the conventional location of the boiler. With hindsight I think my main mistake was to have the driveshaft between loco and tender too steeply inclined.

The current attempt tries to emulate Tony's arrangement, but using commercially available parts such as the High Level gearbox(with remote drive) and the driveshaft / universal joints, which are based on those supplied by N Brass Locos.

I've had the whole caboodle test running up and down a short length of track, and it *seems* to run Ok. Fingers crossed.

Are you planning to follow Tony Mile's practice and rely on pick up on the tender?

Yes, initially at least. This does make the electrics wonderfully simple. There are two short lengths of wire running one from each of the motor terminals to the split PCB board on the tender chassis. That's it. Because the tender is split axle pickup, there are no wiper pickups to worry about. There are no electrics of any sort on the loco - just mechanics.

 

I thought I should at least try with just the tender collecting current - my understanding is that Tony's locos had this arrangement, and they certainly seemed to run OK. If experience subsequently indicates a need for further pickups,it would be relatively straightforward to add wiper pickups to the driving wheels of the loco, along with associated wiring.

A brief mini - update on progress. The tender is fairly complete now apart from adding some detail parts. Work has returned to the loco, which has been separated into its major components. The frames have had various detail such as brakegear and gusset plates added, then have been sprayed in Halford's satin black. Much easier to do this before the wheels are finally fitted.

Detail is gradually being added to the loco superstructure - Here, cab beading is being soldered on .......

..... along with handrails and cinder screens.

 

More to come soon, I hope.

 

Alan

[de Selby]

I have been working away at this loco over the past while in an attempt to get it finished - I haven't posted an update recently as I've been concentrating on the build, but also the nature of much of the remaining work is adding small details These often don't make a big difference to progress photos, but are very important in giving the model its final character. They also seem to take forever to do,

 

It's now clear that this build will go right down to the wire. However, I would respectfully point out that I *am* going to the pub on New Year's Eve, so if it's not finished by then......

 

The loco will (hopefully) be completed but will not, at this stage be painted. There are a couple of reasons for this. Firstly, I need to carry out running tests (I now have a 21mm gauge test track built for this purpose). It is entirely possible that some faults might be found, and modifications be necessary. There's nothing worse than having your just-applied pristine paint job damaged by such activities. Mick, who builds many of the Ballyconnell Road locos tells me that he usually leaves a new loco unpainted for up to a year until he is satisfied that it runs properly and any changes needed have been made.

 

The second reason is that there may be a possibility of having a proper professional paint job applied later in 2016. As this is a pretty special loco as far as I am concerned, this would be worth doing.

 

So, enough talk and on to a few pictures. The loco is actually more complete than the photos would have you think - it is dismantled into its major components in order to add the various detail parts.

 

Aperture made in the smokebox side to allow the external steam pipe to be fitted.

 

External steam pipes soldered into the smokebox. They would be a very visible difference between the V and VS classes were they not mostly hidden behind the smoke deflectors of the latter.

 

Making the distinctive front footsteps for the loco.

 

Front footsteps complete and ready to be fitted.

 

The whole set of footsteps for loco and tender. This was definitely one of those "takes forever" jobs...

 

Tender brakegear components. The shoes are Alan Gibson plastic ones, the pull rods are among the tender parts helpfully included on the loco etches!

 

Brakegear installed on the tender frames.

 

Tender handbrake standard made from coarse, and less coarse handrail knobs & brass wire.

 

The various details - handbrake, water valves etc, added to te front of the tender.

 

Those details more or less complete the tender. The major task remaining on the loco is the Walchaert's valve gear. Here a small plate is extended backward from the cylinder assembly. To this will be attached the brackets on which the expansion links are mounted.

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike 84C]

This is going to be a museum quality model. I hope to see it at an exhibition one day, hopefully on a layout. It is awesome!  

[Horsetan]

Maybe SSM might be encouraged into producing a VS kit after seeing this tour-de-force?

[de Selby]

Well, with only a couple of hours left, it is finally completed!  Some pictures below to illustrate the last few tasks in progress:

 

 

The cylinder assembly, with the motion bracket for the expansion links added.

 

Some slots had to be cut in the running plate to accomodate the expansion links.

 

I couldn't find anything commercially available that remotely resembled the valve guides, so I had to make them out of bits of brass tube.

 

Valve guides

 

Yet more of valve guides

 

Completed valve guides fitted to cylinders

 

Assembling the motion

 

Right hand motion test installed......

 

Along with the left hand side.

 

Various details added to the running plate: expansion link covers, reversing lever, mechanical lubricators.

 

Final assembly has started at long last!!

 

Some shots of the complete loco...

 

 

 

 

I'll maybe try to take some better pictures outside when it is daylight, and post them.

 

However, right now I am going to the pub.

 

And I may be some time.......

 

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[N15class]

What a great build. I can't wait to see it painted.

[Horsetan]

Maybe SSM might be encouraged into producing a VS kit after seeing this tour-de-force?

The man from SSM, he say "No" :-(

 

What a great build. I can't wait to see it painted.

In many ways, it would be a shame to paint it. Models in the raw are at their greatest because you begin to see how they were made.

[kirley]

Really looking forward to seeing this Loco painted.  That was a fantastic build.

[Mike 84C]

Modelling  taken to new heights. And a cleanliness of build that I would aspire to. I also think its a shame to paint it, but in G N R(I) blue, fantastic. Hope you enjoyed the pub!

[John M]

Really excellent build of one of my favourite locos, I especially like the nice solid motion detail. I have convinced myself that I saw a big blue steam locomotive with smoke deflectors during a trip to the seaside as a young child

 

Have do the running characteristics compare with a similar gearbox and motor in the loco, I am planning to use a similar arrangement to motorise a SSM J15 once I catch up on my backlog of half completed projects.

[Londontram]

Outstanding build and a pleasure to read the thread with all the work that's gone into it.

                                                                  Steve

[de Selby]

Well, I did eventually make my way home from the pub - and emerged from liquid form much, much later.

Thanks for all the kind comments. I have now had a little time to look at some of the other threads in this challenge and there's some totally fantastic work - really inspiring. Who said that kitbuilders (and scratchbuilders) were extinct?

I've also had a bit of time to carefully look over the VS from one end to the other with a jaundiced eye - and try and spot anything that may need correcting. There's a few things - thankfully these are mostly minor - which I may tweak before the model is finally painted. For example, the whistle from the kit looks slightly too tall to my eye. The fork in the reversing rod is, I think, slightly too far forward...... and so on. Anything like this (assuming you notice it in time) is best corrected before painting.  

The next major task though is to test run the loco and set it up correctly. It's very common to have to make minor (and sometimes major) mechanical adjustments at this point - again best done before painting.

In the case of the VS, I've had it running back and forth on a short length of straight track, and it appeared to run very smoothly. Some things became apparent. It will probably need a little bit of end float in the driveshaft if the thing is to have any chance of going round curves. The springs will need adjusted as the loco is slightly over to one side at present. It has traversed my test track once, nearly from end to end. This revealed that the compensation set up needs to be adjusted. Where the track has even slight uneveness, one or both sets of driving wheels may not be in contact with the rail - not good. Finally, weight has to be added to both the loco and tender to provide maximum adhesion. This is always a trial and error process, but because the motor is in the tender, much of the firebox and boiler is empty and available for adding weight.

There is a reason why I haven't got further with testing the VS. I also have an almost completed S Class which I had set aside when I started building the VS. There was a tight spot in it somewhere that was just enough to effect slow running. Before I started testing the VS, I impulsively picked up the S and tried it on the rolling road again. To my surprise, after running for a few minutes, it started to run more freely, so I just left it running, and it slowly improved. Unfortunately (or so I thought) after about an hour the rear crankpin nuts came loose (they had only been secured with a tiny dab of superglue). However, this quickly made it apparent the the tight spot had not been where I thought, and could actually be very easily corrected. I will post the full story in a separate post in the Irish Railways section. The upshot of this was that I have spent a little time getting the S Class running optimally on the test track, before returning to the VS.

Below are some photos of the completed VS taken in daylight. There are also some in the summary topic here.

 

 

 

 

There is a precedent for the above combination of S Class and VS Class. A very early RPSI railtour had 171 piloting 207. 171 was, of course, preserved, but 207, alas, was not.

 

Alan

[Horsetan]

....A very early RPSI railtour had 171 piloting 207. 171 was, of course, preserved, but 207, alas, was not.

207's tender did survive, though, and the RPSI have it.

 

I did ask Des at SSM if he would consider designing a VS kit, and the answer was in the negative, so it looks like your masterpiece will be the only one.

[Nelson Jackson]

Amazing work on both locos, absolutely superb you should be proud of them! Here's some footage of a double header by the RPSI albeit a V instead of VS, oh how I would have loved to witness it.

[46444]

Really lovely modelling Alan.  

 

I've just read this thread all the way through from the beginning.  I'm no expert on Irish railways but I can appreciate a great locomotive design and you've done it proud with this build.

 

Looking forwards to seeing it finished.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark