Clerestory Coaches, Knowledge needed! - And other GWR ponderings.

[Il Grifone]

Next!

 

the Hornby 4 wheeled coach. I already know it's not based on anything 'real', but how close is it to something GWR from 1900?

 

It's vaguely S&DJR and was even available in this livery, but nothing like the GWR four wheel designs. Luckily there are the Ratio kits, even if they're not 100% accurate. Once upon a time, K's did kits (in white metal and heavy!) of a four wheel third (the earlier single arc roof type) and a six wheel tri-composite.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sdjr+four+wheel+coach&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Ta1XVYzNK6y27ga4qID4AQ&ved=0CCwQ7Ak&biw=1372&bih=783#imgrc=_

 

EDIT

 

possibly even this NSR design - three compartment first and four compartment third (the windows have square corners whereas the Hornby coach has rounded corners).

 

http://www.mousa.biz/fourmm/coach/kits/nsr_coaches4.html

Edited May 16, 2015 by Il Grifone

[Satan's Goldfish]

Hornby 4 wheeler is definately off then as too inaccurate.

 

More old Triang offerings now:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIANG-Hornby-GWR-1ST-3RD-COACH-RAILWAY-/221769376583?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item33a27c2347

 

I know they're not clerestory carriages, but are these close to anything real?

[BG John]

Hornby 4 wheeler is definately off then as too inaccurate.

 

More old Triang offerings now:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIANG-Hornby-GWR-1ST-3RD-COACH-RAILWAY-/221769376583?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item33a27c2347

 

I know they're not clerestory carriages, but are these close to anything real?

Caledonian Railway allegedly, but I've no idea how inaccurate. They went with the Caledonian Single. But not very Great Western.

[Il Grifone]

Hornby 4 wheeler is definately off then as too inaccurate.

 

More old Triang offerings now:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIANG-Hornby-GWR-1ST-3RD-COACH-RAILWAY-/221769376583?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item33a27c2347

 

I know they're not clerestory carriages, but are these close to anything real?

 

The sides are reasonable models of Caledonian 'Grampian' stock, but modified to fit Tri-ang's BR Mk I underframe/end moulding and should have flat ends and 6 wheel bogies. As well as CR livery*, they came in LMS (correct, but lacking the black line in the centre of the mouldings), GWR and SR (both incorrect and nothing like any real coaches). Apparently there was a working of these coaches as far south as Taunton, but not either of the two types portrayed by Tri-ang. A point could be stretched however......

 

*Not badly done on Tri-ang's version, but much better on Hornby's reissue. Unfortunately the latter are/were only available in a set together with CR no. 123 AFAIK.

 

The two real coaches preserved with no. 123 are similar in design, but shorter (57 foot) and have four wheel bogies ('Fox' IIRC, but certainly not the BR ones fitted to the models).

 

http://www.caley.com/grampian.php

Edited May 16, 2015 by Il Grifone

[RosiesBoss]

Here's a link to a good summary of the RTR coaches you may find on Ebay and other second-hand sources: http://www.gwr.org.uk/kits4rtrcoaches.html

 

In addition to the data in the table, be aware that early Hornby Collett model coaches had incorrect BR bogies. These particular models also have a more "plastic" look, relying on pre-coloured plastic for the brown. Later issues have the correct (shorter wheelbase) GWR bogies with better wheels and have a superior finish.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[Satan's Goldfish]

As ever guys, thank you for your superior knowledge. Starts to make me wonder what Triang/Hornby were basing some of their models on!

[bgman]

As ever guys, thank you for your superior knowledge. Starts to make me wonder what Triang/Hornby were basing some of their models on!

I thought they'd do as a "fill in" but got fed up and they're still in a state of disrepair!

When they're painted in a reasonable way they're passable?

 

 

Don't let it put you off though

[Il Grifone]

As ever guys, thank you for your superior knowledge. Starts to make me wonder what Triang/Hornby were basing some of their models on!

 

There was a philosophy of making things fit the existing underframes/chassis /boxes, which has not altogether gone away. It was/is extremely prevalent in the model road vehicle world, where models were/are made in different scales even in the same range.

[BG John]

I've just found my collection of Tri-ang ones. All were new when I had them, and conversions were started decades ago, but not finished - yet!!!

 

OO Brake with no windows and underframe "detail" missing

OO 3rd with badly removed clerestory!

EM 3rd in 1908 brown livery with whitemetal Dean bogies

Brake body only in 1912 lake livery

 

 

I seem to have a few sets of Dean bogies around, and a few Ratio 4-wheel chassis, so maybe one day something might happen!!!

[Satan's Goldfish]

Don't worry, I have a similar collection of unfinished projects!

 

next gwr question! Would a terminus handling tender locomotives such as county 4-4-0s and Dean Singles always be equipt with a turntable, or could they sometimes be seen running tender first?

[Prometheus]

Thanks John, I think I'll ignore those then.

 

The postie delivered these today:

 

The slipery slope starts here!

 

Not as slippery as the slope that led to this. Awaiting further paint is a butchered Triang Clerestory brake loosely [at present] mounted on a surgically adapted Hornby 6-wheel chassis. Bit of detail yet to be added. 

 

 

Does anyone know where I can obtain Dean bogies for improving a Triang Clerestory by the way ?

 

Thanks

 

Tony

[BG John]

Does anyone know where I can obtain Dean bogies for improving a Triang Clerestory by the way ?

 

Thanks

 

Tony

I've got no idea what make the ones I have are. I bought them many years ago, and they may well not be available any more. In this article on gwr.org.uk, Mikkel suggests using the bogies off the modern Hornby version.

http://gwr.org.uk/proc22.html

[Darwinian]

 

 

 

Does anyone know where I can obtain Dean bogies for improving a Triang Clerestory by the way ?

 

Bit of a sore point for me this.

247 used to make 8'6" and 10' Dean bogies in cast whitemetal but recently stopped production and so far as I can ascertain no one else has taken them up. I've got the ex-bettabits Tri-Comp etches and bits but didn't buy the bogies at the same time.

Mallard / Blacksmith used to do Dean bogies and I have seen a set turn up on a well known auction site, but I think the bogies on their own are probably quite rare,

The current Hornby celrestories have 10' bogies which are fairly crude with a full length footboard moulded on but look OK from normal viewing distances.

 

I spoke to David Geen at Expo EM and he said he has plans for some but says not until next year at the earliest.

 

I think a few clerestories got Churchward "American" bogies fitted (pictures in one fo the Russel books?) but I guess these would have been quite rare. These are more readily available.

 

Darwinian

[Prometheus]

Thanks both - I thought it would be tricky. Coopercraft seem to have them advertised but it may be an out-of-date link. I'll ring him [or at least try to] next week.

 

Tony

[Siberian Snooper]

Thanks both - I thought it would be tricky. Coopercraft seem to have them advertised but it may be an out-of-date link. I'll ring him [or at least try to] next week.

 

Tony

 

A word of warning, do NOT part with any money until you are certain he can actually supply them. Please read at least some of the link below.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66297-news-from-cooper-craftblacksmithslaterskirk-lnermailcoach-kits/

[PaulT]

Does anyone know where I can obtain Dean bogies for improving a Triang Clerestory by the way ?

 

Broad Gauge Society sell 4mm and 7mm bogie kits for Dean 6'4" and 4mm  for 8'6" version.

Both can be built standard gauge or with extra bits in Broad Gauge. Castings included are mostly white metal but as stock expires they are being upgraded to lost wax.

www.broadgauge.org.uk

 

Dart Castings have recently introduced an etch for the 6'4" BG using Mike Trice style torsion suspension. It is on their website but not yet in printed catalogue. Castings would need to be sourced elsewhere, eg BGS

 

Paul Townsend (4mm Sales Assistant to BGS)

[Adrian Wintle]

The 8'6 and 6'4 Dean bogies advertised by Coopercraft are the ex-Slaters ones from their Clerestory kits. They are very complex kits designed for inside bearing wheelsets.  Very pretty when finished, but not as free-rolling as some might like.

 

Adrian

Edited May 21, 2015 by Adrian Wintle

[BG John]

If it's any help in tracking some 8' 6" Dean bogies down, I've got three different makes. I've no idea who produced two of them, as I've had them a very long time!

 

The first two are whitemetal, one with footboard and one without:

 

 

These are Mallard Models etched with whitemetal castings. £5.10 from Cove Models!

[Darwinian]

If it's any help in tracking some 8' 6" Dean bogies down, I've got three different makes. I've no idea who produced two of them, as I've had them a very long time!

 

 

BG John, the middle set are K's I think. I had a set on their passenger brake van but changed them for 9' American after seeing a picture of one running on those. Like yours I think one of mine had broken.

 

Broad Gauge Society sell 4mm and 7mm bogie kits for Dean 6'4" and 4mm  for 8'6" version.

Both can be built standard gauge or with extra bits in Broad Gauge. Castings included are mostly white metal but as stock expires they are being upgraded to lost wax.

www.broadgauge.org.uk

 

Dart Castings have recently introduced an etch for the 6'4" BG using Mike Trice style torsion suspension. It is on their website but not yet in printed catalogue. Castings would need to be sourced elsewhere, eg BGS

 

Paul Townsend (4mm Sales Assistant to BGS)

 

Thanks Paul I was unaware of the BG society ones as I'd asssumed nearly everything they produced was for Broad Gauge vehicles . Might have to invest in a pair.

 

Darwinian

[A Murphy]

Are the top ones BSL?

 

Alastair M

[BG John]

BG John, the middle set are K's I think. I had a set on their passenger brake van but changed them for 9' American after seeing a picture of one running on those. Like yours I think one of mine had broken.

They certainly aren't of the best quality, but probably helped by my incompetence several decades ago!

 

Are the top ones BSL?

 

Alastair M

It's not a quiz, so I've no idea

 

I've actually got enough bogies, assuming I don't break any, to put under all my Tri-ang Clerestories, but I'd prefer chopping them about to produce fewer more accurate ones. On gwr.org.uk, it's suggested that two brakes can produce a C22 all 3rd bogie and V5 4 wheel full break, but I've already got a Colin Waite etched V5 body kit, so further investigation may be needed. I've been sorting out my unbuilt/part built kit collection today, and find I have the potential to create a couple of quite varied branch passenger trains.

[lofty1966]

A word of warning, do NOT part with any money until you are certain he can actually supply them. Please read at least some of the link below.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66297-news-from-cooper-craftblacksmithslaterskirk-lnermailcoach-kits/

I can confirm Coopercraft have NONE in stock !!!!

And to be honest I would be surprised if he ever does.

[Mikkel]

On gwr.org.uk, it's suggested that two brakes can produce a C22 all 3rd bogie and V5 4 wheel full break, but I've already got a Colin Waite etched V5 body kit, so further investigation may be needed. I've been sorting out my unbuilt/part built kit collection today, and find I have the potential to create a couple of quite varied branch passenger trains.

 

Hi John, I shouldn't have called it a C22 but a C10 - a mistake I made 15 yers ago but the internet never forgets   

 

I have updated the info on my "back-up" blog here: http://farthinglayouts.blogspot.dk/2008/10/c22-third-from-triang-clerestories.html

[Il Grifone]

The brake third is based on a D37 (at least going by the number - 2316), but has only 2 luggage doors when there should be 4. A reasonable model of this can be made from two brakes - it's main errors will be being too narrow and it should have 'pseudo-corridor' ends.  The compartment ends can make full 3rds 7, 8, or 10 compartment (there was also an elliptical roof version of the last one). None will be 100% accurate, but OK (IMHO).

 

The other coach, described as a '1st/3rd composite', but clearly not as the compartments are all the same length (ignoring the error at the ends where the panelling has not been reduced from the two compartment size) is not really a model of anything. The compartments can be viewed as a generous 'Second' or a skimpy 'First'. It is numbered as a 'Second' (5017), but unfortunately there were no full 'Seconds', so it has to be a full 'First', of which only A4 is non-gangwayed. This (like D37) is a 50 foot* coach and therefore the Tri-ang model is too short. Mine remain so, but a 'cut and shut' lengthening process is on the 'to do' list, but not a high priority...... Also like the D37, they are a scale 6" too narrow, as these had 'pseudo-corridor' ends too

 

* Actually 50' 0 3/4" over mouldings.

 

EDIT

 

I forgot both ran on 10 foot Dean bogies.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Il Grifone

[Prometheus]

Thanks all for your comments re. the Dean bogies. I did think about the later Hornby Clerestory bogies but they are not available as spares currently. The Coopercraft issue would have gone no further [i can assure you !] had I contacted them and been told there were none in stock - I had read the pages of cautionary tale already, but thanks for the warning again though - appreciated. It looks like the Broad Gauge Society will be coming to my aid in due course !

 

Thanks all again.

 

Tony

Edited May 22, 2015 by Prometheus