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Bachmann Delays...will products ever arrive?


DaveClass47
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Hi folks.

 

I was just reading through my June edition of BRM.   There is a feature in it showing the latest announcements, including those from Bachmann.

 

I have had the class 158 (dcc sound) and the new MK2F coaches (including the DBSO) on pre order since they announced it in 2013.   I have also had the new class 90 on order since July 2014.

 

Unfortunately I have just seen to my massive disappointment that the models I have on pre order are "predicted" not to bon sale before:

 

MK2F - Predicted 2016

45 Ton Class B TTA Conical End Black Predicted 2017

Class 158 - Predicted 2017

Class 90 - Predicted 2017

 

Now my initial reaction was one of utter disbelief, but now that's turned to a tiny bit of anger.   This is more so for the Class 158 than any of the others.  It was launched in 2013 and it will be another 2 years (at least) before we see it.   So there is a very real possibility that this train will be arriving 4 years after being announced. 

 

Why Bachmann announced models it cant manufacturer is just plain crazy. Hattons price estimated that this would cost customers £233 for the sound fitted 31-517DS model.   By the time it arrives I am predicting a price over over £300!   

 

What hope have modelers got of affording these models when they price keeps going up, which is made worse as a result of ridiculous delays.   

 

Did Bachmann get too big for its own boots and announced far too much, made too many promises, and now its finding it cant deliver?!?

 

Hornby took real stick from the consumers when its delays got really bad, so I hope the same people who bashed Hornby at every turn now lay off the Margate brand and perhaps vent their displeasure at Bachmann.

 

I personally think 3-4 years from announcing a model to it hitting the shelves is a little bit ridiculous.   You could build an actual 1:1 Scale Ocean Liner in less time!!!

Edited by DaveClass47
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And I see from the Bachmann website that release of the elusive "porthole" Bk 3rd coach seems to be slipping again.  What until recently was shown as April/May has now changed to May/June. But shouldn't be far away now...should it??

 

DR

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But shouldn't be far away now...should it??

It isn't too far away.

 

massive disappointment.... utter disbelief .... anger .... plain crazy.... shows disrespect for its customers ..... ridiculous delays.... Did Bachmann get too big for its own boots.....vent their displeasure at Bachmann

First world problems?

 

Bachmann Europe announce items in all good faith that they will be able to supply in around 18 months from their inclusion in a catalogue. However a multitude of things can happen to interrupt the forecasted development; extended R&D work to include details and how to tool for them, constrictions in a critical path towards production e.g. availability of design engineers for tooling design (I know many projects have ticked all their boxes at the Bachmann Europe end and are awaiting the next stages at the factory end) through to any number of instances that can occur right through to rejecting a model for whatever issue when it's landed in the UK which results in a further delay of several months.

 

I'm sure Bachmann as much as anyone would have loved to have delivered 100% of the items within the projected timescales but sometimes difficulties arise and they deal with them in the way which is most appropriate given the circumstances.

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The delays to the Porthole Brake 3rd are supposed to be due to packaging issues, and that these coaches were ready to be delivered at the same time as the others.

Ten months seems a long time to have stock sitting around waiting for new boxes.

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....However a multitude of things can happen to interrupt the forecasted development......

 

One of those things Andy alludes to, is the reorganisation and rationalisation of the parent company and its production facilities.

It's well documented that Kader have had to make significant adjustments in the wake of the recession and in light of the increasing labour costs in China.

 

One of the outcomes of this, is the much discussed price rises. Much less discussed is the inevitable interruption in the supply of product whilst the factories are reorganised. 

Add on to that, Bachmann Europe's current short term problems with design and R&D capability.

 

On the evidence we have, there's no reason to suppose that these issues won't have been worked through within a year to 18 months time.

 

 

.

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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I think all the problems can be blamed on J.P. Morgan. Weren't they behind the buyout of Sanda Kan that triggered first Hornby's and now Bachmann's problems.

 

There is I think one possible lesson for Bachmann from all this. They should reconsider at what stage a project is when they announce it. Hornby announcing for the current catalogue year means that the project should have advanced beyond the initial design phase, whereas Bachmann's current delays seems to be getting capacity in China to start CAD/tooling work. Delaying new announcements until that work has started might help in meeting their 12-18 months timescales.

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I suspect there could also be shipping delays outside of Bachmann's control causing slipping of delivery dates for due soon items. The LBSC E4 is one of those that seems to be doing a magical mystery tour of the world in a shipping container somewhere.

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I think all the problems can be blamed on J.P. Morgan. Weren't they behind the buyout of Sanda Kan that triggered first Hornby's and now Bachmann's problems.

 

It's certainly true that J. P. Morgan effectively ruined Sanda Kan and probably equally true that Kader took on a bigger dud than they probably realised when they took that company over.

 

The Sanda Kan problems were only one of the problems Kader have had to deal with, even though it was their biggest headache.

Remember, they also suffered a very large fall in global sales as a result of the recession and rapidly rising costs has since come into play.

 

Turnover on their global model train business has been down year on year, as follows....

 

2012  -19.48%

2013  -19.94%

2014  -16.69%

 

That's roughly a halving of the model train turnover in just 3 years. 

 

 

.

.

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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4 - 5 years from announcement to delivery is not unknown.  It is a particularly frustrating wait for all of us with items on order.  

 

I believe Andy Y has covered the salient points adequately already so I'll just add that other lengthy waits have included but not been limited to the class 205 "thumpers" and the yet-to-arrive D600s.  We have been kept up to date on developments with those when there has been news but sometimes there just isn't any movement and things are stuck in the Chinese works.

 

When Bachmann announced their range a couple years back could they have reasonably foreseen the current issues?  I think not entirely.  I also don't think anyone deserves blame for announcing products which won't be in the shops for some time to come if only as a means to say "We're doing this" and preventing duplication of effort and split sales causing reduced income if two people then make the same thing.

 

One thing modelling has taught me is patience.  Another is persistence.  If we are patient we almost always get what we so persistently asked for.

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The delays to the Porthole Brake 3rd are supposed to be due to packaging issues, and that these coaches were ready to be delivered at the same time as the others.

Ten months seems a long time to have stock sitting around waiting for new boxes.

The problem with the Porthole Brake 3rd last year, when the other Porthole coaches were released, was a decoration issue. Bachmann advised that some of the stock delivered was satisfactory, but most were not. This led to another run of the model having to be organised, which meant waiting for a production slot. Andy Y did get info that the new production run was likely to be in early 2015, so its not far out. It was frustrating that this model suffered 2 production problems, as there had been a production of the Porthole coaches planned for 2013, which was not completed due to production problems with the tooling, requiring amendments to the tooling. I don't think it's far away, as the indications are that this coach is being shipped with the Modified Hall loco and the grain hopper wagon.

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Hi folks.

 I have also had the new class 90 on order since July 2014.

 

Class 90 - Predicted 2017

 

I personally think 3-4 years from announcing a model to it hitting the shelves is a bit ridiculous.   You could build an actual 1:1 Scale Ocean Liner in less time!!!

Exactly why I prefer Hornby (all personal reasons). I prefer buying the Hornby Class 90 and using Peter Harvey's excellent Class 90 Detailing Kit + my own 3D designed detailing stuff to do it up myself. Not only have I had 100% satisfaction from Hornby but also been buying stuff from them since '99. Always had top notch service also. With Bachmann I've been less satisfied with a variety of problems.

 

For me it's Hornby and PH Designs all the way when it comes to a Class 90.

 

Hope Pete does something for a Class 92.

 

Cheers!

JBM.

 

PS: Pity hardly anyone is bashing the blue team, people are every ready to bash Hornby......strange!!! Well I'd stand and support the true British brand a.k.a Hornby who seem to have turned a corner.

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First world problems?

 

 

Very much so.

 

I get rather tired reminding people model railways ARE LUXURY PRODUCTS and as such are not fundamental to us being able to live satisfactory and enjoyable lives. Be thankful that you are not one of those people whose situation requires them to use food banks or suffering other financial problems which makes daily life a constant struggle.

 

While a four year wait is frustrating - I actually think making their moves known early on is a GOOD thing. With costs rising the last thing manufacturers need is to spend three years developing a product only for a rival to suddenly announce they have the same product at an advanced stage of development and ready to bring to market before yours.

 

The other factor is the understandable desire on the part of modellers to pre-order so they don't run the risk of not being able to secure the model when it comes out due to the 'batch production' strategies employed these days. While its reassuring to place a pre-order that then brings up complaints when the eventual price is significantly higher than that initially expected (though sensible retailers wont have a price shown - although that in turn can cause issues with internet shopping software as Kernow Model Centre found out recently).

 

From a manufacturers point of view the pre-ordering setup is also useful in being able to gauge demand and all things being equal it may be possible to increase the batch size.

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Exactly why I prefer Hornby (all personal reasons). I prefer buying the Hornby Class 90 and using Peter Harvey's excellent Class 90 Detailing Kit + my own 3D designed detailing stuff to do it up myself. Not only have I had 100% satisfaction from Hornby but also been buying stuff from them since '99. Always had top notch service also. With Bachmann I've been less satisfied with a variety of problems.

For me it's Hornby and PH Designs all the way when it comes to a Class 90.

Hope Pete does something for a Class 92.

Cheers!

JBM.

PS: Pity hardly anyone is bashing the blue team, people are every ready to bash Hornby......strange!!! Well I'd stand and support the true British brand a.k.a Hornby who seem to have turned a corner.

Can we please have sensible debate and exchange of opinion that doesn't descend to levels of immaturity such as this ?

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Phil, I entirely agree with your post above (post 14), apart from this bit....

 

.....due to the 'batch production' strategies employed these days. 

 

Batch production has been with us for a very long time, it's not a new phenomena.

What is different is the size of batches , which are mostly smaller and the difficulty in obtaining production slots, which in itself may constrain the size of batches.

 

Add to that, as the wealth and range of subjects modelled has expanded, some/many of the models are now of a more limited appeal or affordability, leading to smaller, or more tightly controlled production volumes.

e.g. Blue Pullman.

 

Manufacturers and shops can't afford to keep stuff on the shelves for too long.

 

 

.

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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Perhaps simply trying to put other makers off from making a particular item ,which Bachmann think if and when when they get around to actually making it will make them loads money ?.

 

That idea is now starting to fall far short and must be embarrassing for them as well. The strange thing is the C1 has arrived in very quick time but not others as mentioned above who are much older announcements.

 

.

Oxford and other makers are now joining the throng and they will have to get their act together asap. 

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I'm surprised this is still an issue. People have been levelling the same charges at Bachmann for many years: they make generally good models to bizarre timescales.

 

(Yes, it would probably be more sensible if they tempered their new product announcements...)

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And there's another release being announced by Bachmann on May 30th: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98964-new-model-from-Bachmann/  :jester:

 

These production delays (from anyone) have never really bothered me.  Just more time to look forward to the new item and get on with other things, like detailing up the previously delayed items that have now arrived . . .  

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Why Bachmann announced models it cant manufacturer is just plain crazy. 

Is it?

 

We've had long lead times in the order of two to four years from Bachmann for a long time now. (4-CEP, Dukedog and several others.)

 

Hornby tried to wait to announce items until they 'knew'* they were about 12 months away from delivery and got pasted for the 'evils of duplication'.

 

I don't see where transparency in what a company intends to do is considered a bad thing.

 

We have certainly reached a point where we shouldn't expect a price point to be accurate for a model at the time of announcement.

Edited by Ozexpatriate
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Manufacturers are in a bit of a catch 22 scenario. If they announce models very early in the development cycle then they risk being pilloried for delays. If they leave until late then somebody else may announce the model first then they get pilloried for copying somebody else. Personally I would prefer them to announce things when the models are close to being ready but understand why companies avoid that.

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Turnover on their global model train business has been down year on year, as follows....

 

2012  -19.48%

2013  -19.94%

2014  -16.69%

Ron, I take it that you have looked at the 2014 financial report? (The 2014 number was only reported a couple of weeks ago.)

 

Some interesting reading there.

 

I thought it noteworthy that they are not paying a dividend this year.

 

The weakness of Europe and the US affected the sentiment of the ultimate customers and compressed the business of the toys and model trains. The shortage of labour and high wages also affected the Group’s performance.

I'd say the latter was more significant than the former.

 

The figure that jumped out at me was the huge year over year reduction of staffing costs of 25% (presumably a result of shuttering factories - a decision possibly influenced by rising wages).  That's a big indicator of the challenge they have getting things produced. There's not enough people to do the work.

 

I see a company being managed cautiously to stay in business in stark contrast to others who are 'doubling down' in a fight to survive. They continue to produce excellent models albeit more slowly than some would like.

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Personally I would prefer them to announce things when the models are close to being ready but understand why companies avoid that.

I like the transparency of company X saying "I plan to do Y". If it takes a couple of years that's OK, given that the whole process probably takes a couple years anyway.

 

If there's no material progress and companies appear to start using announcements to "reserve" an item indefinitely, that's a problem. Given Bachmann's excellent communications, I don't accuse them of doing this but there is a point where making a product announcement for a delivery four to five years away becomes unreasonable.

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I think if we only had one company with a narrow range then the delays would be more frustrating but given the number of manufacturers and the diversity of the models those manufacturers offer there is usually a pretty steady tempo of new releases to drool over so it is not like there are no models to buy. Bachmann's main competitor did go through a period where they were struggling to deliver much of anything but over the last year or so the tap seems to have opened up quite a bit and shops seem to be getting reasonable allocations of new stock again. In these circumstances the delays are what they are I think. They may be frustrating, it may not be a sign of particularly efficient supply chains etc but it is one of those scenarios where it is not so much wrong as it is what it is. I find it is easier to just shrug it off and accept that release schedules are pretty meaningless in the real world.

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