Bachmann Delays...will products ever arrive?

[Covkid]

Of course, that ratio doesn’t reflect those DCC-ers who fit their own (premium?) chips - so DCC use might well be higher.

 

But that makes it all the more mad: those people have to pay extra for a chip they don’t want, then rip it out and throw it away in order to fit their own.

 

I didn’t really understand the relevance of your example (I’m sure that’s my failing), but it didn’t seem to me to address the question: why can Hornby produce DC and DCC versions of the same model, but Bachmann apparently cannot?

 

Paul

 

Sorry Paul. I didn't explain very well.  New technology.  Some buy it some don't. I was fortunate in not having many locos back in the late 1990s and early 2000s, and was woo d by an SWD class 25 sound decoder, and simply had to have one !! From then I realised I would have to convert to DCC and that is what I did. 

 

I recognise others don't, and totally understand folk who have the entire collection of class 50s or even the twenty two deltics and really cannot afford to convert to DCC. The problem is that DCC is never going away, and as generation succeeds generation the modern technology will replace the old analogue systems we use.

 

The reference to the car is that the stop start engine gizmo which is designed to reduce emissions will become a standard fitment just as some people don't want it to be.  Yes, I could choose a different car, but ultimately all cars will probably adopt it as standard just as model manufacturers will eventually default to DCC as standard.  

[Dunsignalling]

Sorry Paul. I didn't explain very well.  New technology.  Some buy it some don't. I was fortunate in not having many locos back in the late 1990s and early 2000s, and was woo d by an SWD class 25 sound decoder, and simply had to have one !! From then I realised I would have to convert to DCC and that is what I did. 

 

I recognise others don't, and totally understand folk who have the entire collection of class 50s or even the twenty two deltics and really cannot afford to convert to DCC. The problem is that DCC is never going away, and as generation succeeds generation the modern technology will replace the old analogue systems we use.

 

The reference to the car is that the stop start engine gizmo which is designed to reduce emissions will become a standard fitment just as some people don't want it to be.  Yes, I could choose a different car, but ultimately all cars will probably adopt it as standard just as model manufacturers will eventually default to DCC as standard.  

Always supposing, in both cases, that they aren't superseded by something else............

[John M Upton]

If you think OO is bad, try the N scale market to which my emphasis has moved.  A model using existing tooling with a livery that has already been produced in OO is gradually slipping further and further back with no explanation whatsoever.  In this instance Sealink liveried Mk1's, announced in January 2017, slated for a summer/autumn arrival, that slipped into Spring 2018 and now according to Bachmann's website is Jan/Feb 2019!

[brushman47544]

why can Hornby produce DC and DCC versions of the same model, but Bachmann apparently cannot?

Paul

I do sympathise with DC users over Bachmann’s approach to DCC fitted models (with or without sound). If you are modelling a specific era or area and the appropriate livery is the DCC fitted version, or worse DCC sound, what choice do you have? Hornby’s approach of supplying a model in both DC and DCC versions was a good one, but it seems to have stopped, presumably because getting the balence right was difficulty and one version sold out quickly the other not.

 

I don’t think there’s an easy answer, but I do think it is encumbent on the manufactures to make it as easy as possible to fit a decoder so DCC users are not discouraged from buying DC versions. In this respect I would suggest that the benchmark should be that NO detail parts (couplings, brake rodding, speedo cable) should have to be removed to fit a decoder. One or two screws maximum, lift off, insert and replace. If this criterion cannot be met for whatever reason, then the model should be supplied DCC fitted as well as DC.

[MatthewCarty]

I'm one of the people who uses DCC, but I always fit my own chips. So in the last week I have had an old DCC fitted Bachmann jinty and an old DCC fitted Hornby castle, both of which have had the manufacturer's chips taken out, and I have fitted my preferred choice into. Thankfully Hornby seem to have given up on DCC fitted, but Bachmann still seem to completely randomly choose to fit some with a chip and others without! 

 

Along the same lines, factory weathering is also a pain. Thankfully Hornby appear to have stopped applying their yellow-brown weathering, and left it up to the customer to weather (or have weathered) the items they want. Bachmann on the other hand still seem to take that choice out of our hands. There are several Bachmann items currently for sale which I would buy if they weren't weathered, but instead I keep my money!

[jjb1970]

I don’t think there’s an easy answer, but I do think it is encumbent on the manufactures to make it as easy as possible to fit a decoder so DCC users are not discouraged from buying DC versions. In this respect I would suggest that the benchmark should be that NO detail parts (couplings, brake rodding, speedo cable) should have to be removed to fit a decoder. One or two screws maximum, lift off, insert and replace. If this criterion cannot be met for whatever reason, then the model should be supplied DCC fitted as well as DC.

Couldn't agree more. Easy fit decoder sockets would probably do more to encourage DCC use than anything. Especially now the Control systems are very user friendly and offer options to control layouts using PC's and smart devices. Bachmann showed how it should be done many years ago with their Desiro model. A few HO models have done it, I have an LE Models ETR 220 with an easy access DCC slot in the base. Rapido did it for their recent Dash 8 model. If you just drop a decoder in a slot it makes it sensible to just sell an analogue model as the only reason I see for buying the DCC non-condensing version is to avoid the hassle of getting the body off and then re-fitting it without breaking anything.

 

I remember chipping the Bachmann 4CEP and Heljan 33 and how hard it was to get the bodies off. I was convinced I was going to destroy the things, is it any wonder newbies are scared to do it?

[phil gollin]

.

 

Hattons have sent out an E-Mail stating that Bachmann have stated that the 2-HAP model has entered its tooling stage  -  "GOOD NEWS"

 

The price, at the moment, is (near enough) £250 (discount = £212) for two coaches and a motor bogie !  -  "BAD NEWS."

 

 

.

[woodenhead]

.

 

Hattons have sent out an E-Mail stating that Bachmann have stated that the 2-HAP model has entered its tooling stage  -  "GOOD NEWS"

 

The price, at the moment, is (near enough) £250 (discount = £212) for two coaches and a motor bogie !  -  "BAD NEWS."

.

But don't worry, it won't be that price when released......

[tractor_37260]

Surely the DC versus DCC ratios are constantly changing though and I have no doubt that 5:1 will have changed since that fact was quoted to you.

I do understand the disappointment of DC ers who have to pay more for a DCC only model of their choice, but it is like a lot of other things in life - the consumer doesn't get a very good choice in many cases.

To quote an example I drive a nine year old car, but might acquire a nearly new one in 18 months time. Will I have the option of buying a car without this engine stop start business, which I really don't want ?

Times they are a changing

On some of the latest cars "stop start" can be switched off if/when required....but the feature does save fuel especially in urban traffic...and reduce emissions... Edited May 18, 2018 by tractor_37260

[Hilux5972]

On some of the latest cars "stop start" can be switched off if/when required....but the feature does save fuel especially in urban traffic...and reduce emissions...

How can it save money? If it stops and has to restart at every set of traffic lights, it’s gonna use more petrol starting again than just idling surely.

[BWsTrains]

How can it save money? If it stops and has to restart at every set of traffic lights, it’s gonna use more petrol starting again than just idling surely.

Hilux,

 

You've obviously not been stuck in Melbourne traffic at lights for minutes at a time. We've one junction where it takes us 3-5 cycles to get thru.

 

When over in NZ we arrived from the N. Island.into Picton, headed via Hanmer Springs for the West Coast then all the way down and met our very first trafffic light in Queenstown which Google maps tells me is 1004km by our route. By chance we sailed thru it! I kid you not. So as with many things it depends on your particular viewpoint. It works for me and getting back on topic I guess this is a good metaphor for opinions regarding DC v DCC.

 

Colin

[The Johnster]

New to this thread and haven't read the back pages, so cut me a little slack if I'm repeating stuff that has already been done to death...

 

I am a complete numpty when it comes to DCC, and, being nobbut a poor pensioner, will not be indulging in a thing I don't really understand and can't afford.  But it is beyond doubt the way the hobby is going, and the opportunities for sound and such effects are superb.  But it doesn't make wiring any easier, just transfers the problem from under the baseboards to on board the locomotives.  If you are modelling steam outline, I don't really reckon the tech is there yet; the sound fx are white noise which do not replicate the different noises that actually came out of real steam locos and by which a knowledgeable listener could make a pretty accurate assessment of the regulator and reverser settings.  That there is an entire section of this forum devoted to it's problems suggests that it is not, yet at any rate, for me.

 

Now, so far as I am aware, all you need to do to convert a DCC loco to DC is to remove the chip, giving you the opportunity to improve your loco's performance with more ballast, or perhaps a flywheel.  This could lead to a situation in which all locos are supplied fitted with DCC by default, costing more and enabling the manufacturers to increase profit at the same markup.  The argument will be that DC Luddites like me can easily convert our models, and as we will be increasingly in a minority, they are providing the best possible price for the largest part of the customer base, and they will point to the slightly lower cost of DCC by default production due to economy of scale as proof of this.

 

But it would be a disaster for me; luckily, the Baccy 94xx if it ever materialises and possibly a Dapol 5101 are the last purchases my BLT actually needs to run my proposed service and cover a good spread of the locos at Tondu shed in the 1950s that would have done the work, so I am hoping to do all my buying before the axe falls on the DC choice!  But I'll still need coaches and wagons now and then, and these will need to make DCC noises for opening and shutting doors, squealing through check rails, and such, and I can see DCC sound and lights in RTP buildings being the next move.

 

As for the time stuff in the blue box takes to get to the shelves, it is sort of what we shrug our shoulders and sigh in expectation of in our general relationship with Kader.  The company is generally a safe pair of hands in terms of quality, accuracy, finish, and performance, and while people used to paying a third of what good models now cost to produce and distribute resent the price increases, I'd say Baccy represents pretty good value for money, and I'm speaking as someone who doesn't have a lot of it!  There is no doubt in my mind that the excessive lead times are the company's weakest point, and the move to cease providing running chassis so that it is less practicable to make a 94xx with a Lima body is irritating, and a cynical exploitation of the lead in time situation at the expense of customers which seems stupid to me from their point of view as well as they have deprived themselves of the income these chassis would have generated for them.

 

But I am by no means ticked off enough to not buy Bachmann stuff; the huge majority of my stock came in a blue box and is likely to continue to do so.

[Ravenser]

New to this thread and haven't read the back pages, so cut me a little slack if I'm repeating stuff that has already been done to death...

 

I am a complete numpty when it comes to DCC, and, being nobbut a poor pensioner, will not be indulging in a thing I don't really understand and can't afford.  But it is beyond doubt the way the hobby is going, and the opportunities for sound and such effects are superb.  But it doesn't make wiring any easier, just transfers the problem from under the baseboards to on board the locomotives.  If you are modelling steam outline, I don't really reckon the tech is there yet; the sound fx are white noise which do not replicate the different noises that actually came out of real steam locos and by which a knowledgeable listener could make a pretty accurate assessment of the regulator and reverser settings.  That there is an entire section of this forum devoted to it's problems suggests that it is not, yet at any rate, for me.

 

Now, so far as I am aware, all you need to do to convert a DCC loco to DC is to remove the chip, giving you the opportunity to improve your loco's performance with more ballast, or perhaps a flywheel.  This could lead to a situation in which all locos are supplied fitted with DCC by default, costing more and enabling the manufacturers to increase profit at the same markup.  The argument will be that DC Luddites like me can easily convert our models, and as we will be increasingly in a minority, they are providing the best possible price for the largest part of the customer base, and they will point to the slightly lower cost of DCC by default production due to economy of scale as proof of this.

 

But it would be a disaster for me; luckily, the Baccy 94xx if it ever materialises and possibly a Dapol 5101 are the last purchases my BLT actually needs to run my proposed service and cover a good spread of the locos at Tondu shed in the 1950s that would have done the work, so I am hoping to do all my buying before the axe falls on the DC choice!  But I'll still need coaches and wagons now and then, and these will need to make DCC noises for opening and shutting doors, squealing through check rails, and such, and I can see DCC sound and lights in RTP buildings being the next move.

 

As for the time stuff in the blue box takes to get to the shelves, it is sort of what we shrug our shoulders and sigh in expectation of in our general relationship with Kader.  The company is generally a safe pair of hands in terms of quality, accuracy, finish, and performance, and while people used to paying a third of what good models now cost to produce and distribute resent the price increases, I'd say Baccy represents pretty good value for money, and I'm speaking as someone who doesn't have a lot of it!  There is no doubt in my mind that the excessive lead times are the company's weakest point, and the move to cease providing running chassis so that it is less practicable to make a 94xx with a Lima body is irritating, and a cynical exploitation of the lead in time situation at the expense of customers which seems stupid to me from their point of view as well as they have deprived themselves of the income these chassis would have generated for them.

 

But I am by no means ticked off enough to not buy Bachmann stuff; the huge majority of my stock came in a blue box and is likely to continue to do so.

 

A DCC Ready loco is supplied with the socket blanked out with a blanking plug. Either you remove the plug and fit a decoder or you leave it alone and run  it on DC

 

To be honest DCC Fitted looks like a blind alley - invariably you get the cheapest most basic decoder the manufacturer can source

 

DCC sound door opening is a burden and nuisence

[mdvle]

Now, so far as I am aware, all you need to do to convert a DCC loco to DC is to remove the chip, giving you the opportunity to improve your loco's performance with more ballast, or perhaps a flywheel.  This could lead to a situation in which all locos are supplied fitted with DCC by default, costing more and enabling the manufacturers to increase profit at the same markup.  The argument will be that DC Luddites like me can easily convert our models, and as we will be increasingly in a minority, they are providing the best possible price for the largest part of the customer base, and they will point to the slightly lower cost of DCC by default production due to economy of scale as proof of this.

 

Many DCC chips will also operate on DC, so no removal is necessary although some feel the performance under DC is less optimal.

 

To convert a DCC loco to DC only usually involves removing the DCC chip and putting a "blank" into the DCC socket.  This of course assumes the loco has a socket and hasn't been directly wired by someone in the past.

 

At the retail level there is little interest for DCC locos, the divide is either DCC with Sound or DC only.  There is little further economy of scale to reduce DCC Sound prices so I wouldn't expect going all DCC Sound to help that.

 

I am not familiar with what Hornby or Bachmann currently do, but in America it is DCC Sound or DCC capable (so a blank fitted to the DCC socket).  There is no cost saving to removing the DCC socket in production.

 

 

But I'll still need coaches and wagons now and then, and these will need to make DCC noises for opening and shutting doors, squealing through check rails, and such, and I can see DCC sound and lights in RTP buildings being the next move.

Not sure that DCC noise will ever dominate the non-loco part of the market as the expense doesn't justify the complexity or cost either to the manufacturer or the consumer.

 

Consumers are far more likely if anything to invest into LCC which can control signals, turnouts, etc.  https://dccwiki.com/Layout_Command_Control

 

 

and the move to cease providing running chassis so that it is less practicable to make a 94xx with a Lima body is irritating, and a cynical exploitation of the lead in time situation at the expense of customers which seems stupid to me from their point of view as well as they have deprived themselves of the income these chassis would have generated for them.

Running chassis have 2 problems for a Bachmann/Hornby/etc perspective.  First, they are another item to stock/handle and use tie up valuable capital in.  Secondly, the biggest cost in developing a new model is everything but the chassis and thus anything that discourages the purchase of the new model ends up costing them money.  In other words, the little income they would get from selling the chassis separately is more than offset by the costs in lost sales of a new model.

 

[robmcg]

...

 

I am a complete numpty when it comes to DCC, and, being nobbut a poor pensioner, will not be indulging in a thing I don't really understand and can't afford.  But it is beyond doubt the way the hobby is going, and the opportunities for sound and such effects are superb.  But it doesn't make wiring any easier, just transfers the problem from under the baseboards to on board the locomotives.  If you are modelling steam outline, I don't really reckon the tech is there yet; the sound fx are white noise which do not replicate the different noises that actually came out of real steam locos and by which a knowledgeable listener could make a pretty accurate assessment of the regulator and reverser settings.  That there is an entire section of this forum devoted to it's problems suggests that it is not, yet at any rate, for me.

 

...

 

I totally agree about DCC sounds coming out of models of steam engines, they just simply don't work. End of.

 

So much for miniature replica of a steam train approaching at speed over a junction on a frosty morning, running late, well linked up, cylinder timing a tad out, regulator well-open...  and receding wheel-beats after the train passes, smoke hanging in the air, and a local dog barking....

 

I don't think so.

[adb968008]

I think DCC isn’t too bad on diesels though, but it’s still a bit clunky switching between sounds (at varying speeds).

 

I think it’s possible to have a micro Wi-fi chip with ROM, that can be triggered by app (laptop phone etc) that could give greatly increased possibilities than the “f” pulse signals of DCC today, and could work on D.C. power too.

 

But similarly I think many peoples experiences of sound isn’t recorded of the engine room, but of the platform or trackside, in which case fade in/fade out sound correlated to a trains speed & proximity may be more appropriate and easier to implement.. a few speakers, and wifi’d Sound from a source.. (you could do this today using Bluetooth speakers which use a USB charger for charging), and a laptop which can push and overlap several sound files at the same time.

Edited May 21, 2018 by adb968008

[wombatofludham]

I totally agree about DCC sounds coming out of models of steam engines, they just simply don't work. End of.

 

So much for miniature replica of a steam train approaching at speed over a junction on a frosty morning, running late, well linked up, cylinder timing a tad out, regulator well-open...  and receding wheel-beats after the train passes, smoke hanging in the air, and a local dog barking....

 

I don't think so.

 

You may think so, and personally I remain to be convinced that the speaker technology available today can fully replicate the dynamic complexity of steam sound, but our visitors absolutely love the sound equipped locos on the Dolgellau layout. Oldiewonks in particular get just as excited as the kids, if not more so, coo-ing with nostalgic delight. So much so I have recently bought another sound chipped Ivatt 2 kettle to go with the Std 4 tank and the delightful 14xx and auto-train, plus an LMS parcels van which has been converted to a steam sound generator to run behind our plain vanilla DCC locos. If they want sound, boy are they going to get it. Cranked up to 11.

 

 

I must admit the public reaction to the sound equipped fleet has been amazing and taken me by surprise as I don't feel the playback quality is quite there yet. Perhaps our more aged visitors natural age reduction in their hearing dynamic range processing helps them, or their mind fills in the blanks.

[Dunsignalling]

I totally agree about DCC sounds coming out of models of steam engines, they just simply don't work. End of.

 

So much for miniature replica of a steam train approaching at speed over a junction on a frosty morning, running late, well linked up, cylinder timing a tad out, regulator well-open...  and receding wheel-beats after the train passes, smoke hanging in the air, and a local dog barking....

 

I don't think so.

To me DCC sound for steam outline locos always seems to work much better in 7mm scale, where there is space for bigger speakers and room for them to "breathe".

 

As the proud owner of a pair of Rogers floor-standers at home, I learned long ago that a good big-un will always beat a good little-un.

 

John

[darren01]

Hi folks.

 

I was just reading through my June edition of BRM.   There is a feature in it showing the latest announcements, including those from Bachmann.

 

I have had the class 158 (dcc sound) and the new MK2F coaches (including the DBSO) on pre order since they announced it in 2013.   I have also had the new class 90 on order since July 2014.

 

Unfortunately I have just seen to my massive disappointment that the models I have on pre order are "predicted" not to bon sale before:

 

MK2F - Predicted 2016

45 Ton Class B TTA Conical End Black Predicted 2017

Class 158 - Predicted 2017

Class 90 - Predicted 2017

 

Now my initial reaction was one of utter disbelief, but now that's turned to a tiny bit of anger.   This is more so for the Class 158 than any of the others.  It was launched in 2013 and it will be another 2 years (at least) before we see it.   So there is a very real possibility that this train will be arriving 4 years after being announced. 

 

Why Bachmann announced models it cant manufacturer is just plain crazy. Hattons price estimated that this would cost customers £233 for the sound fitted 31-517DS model.   By the time it arrives I am predicting a price over over £300!   

 

What hope have modelers got of affording these models when they price keeps going up, which is made worse as a result of ridiculous delays.   

 

Did Bachmann get too big for its own boots and announced far too much, made too many promises, and now its finding it cant deliver?!?

 

Hornby took real stick from the consumers when its delays got really bad, so I hope the same people who bashed Hornby at every turn now lay off the Margate brand and perhaps vent their displeasure at Bachmann.

 

I personally think 3-4 years from announcing a model to it hitting the shelves is a little bit ridiculous.   You could build an actual 1:1 Scale Ocean Liner in less time!!!

I have been saying this for sometime now, announce model, wait years for said model, price shots up and the a big shock, i stopped buying Bachmann, the final straw for me was the Brighton Atlantic, announced, wait god know how long, and then the price shot up!.   

[The Johnster]

I have been saying this for sometime now, announce model, wait years for said model, price shots up and the a big shock, i stopped buying Bachmann, the final straw for me was the Brighton Atlantic, announced, wait god know how long, and then the price shot up!.   

 

I get where you are coming from, darren, but given the 3 to 4 year lead times and the rapidly increasing cost of Chinese production, it does not seem reasonable to expect the original projected price to remain held down; it is important that the first batch of models cover the investment and does not make a loss.

 

Perhaps Chinese costs will be less than UK ones and manufacturing will return to this island, which will mean shorter lead times but probably lower quality; the Chinese are very good at what they do and have revolutionised RTR, to the point that it has effectively killed the kit business and few people can scratchbuild better stuff!

 

This is not to say that I support Baccy's habit of announcing models and then taking geological time to produce them, it is very irritating and makes it difficult to budget for new models (I am nobbut a poor penisoner) when you cannot rely on the price until the model is actually in the shops and going to sell out before you can cobble the cash together, especially as the 94xx which I am interested in has been put back twice from the original 'late 2016'.  I work to the principle that if the item is in the catalogue but the picture is a photo of the real thing, there is no chance of the model appearing any time soon!

 

Had I known the actual delay that would bedevill the 94xx, I would probably have built a Limby by now, but this constant carrot dangling and putting back the release date has prevented my doing this.  Bachmann would not have lost a sale; i am going to buy a 94xx anyway, but they have already deprived me of a 94xx for over a year!

Edited May 23, 2018 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

DCC sound on diesels is excellent, especially considering the pathetic little speakers; my first experience was on a video of Phil Bullock's layout, which, filmed in natural light in his gardens, I found to be an eye opening experience for a modeller of my traditional approach.

 

But, please, so far as steam is concerned, I would respectfully request the manufacturers to go away and not bother until you can get it right!

[brushman47544]

I get where you are coming from, darren, but given the 3 to 4 year lead times and the rapidly increasing cost of Chinese production, it does not seem reasonable to expect the original projected price to remain held down; it is important that the first batch of models cover the investment and does not make a loss.

 

Perhaps Chinese costs will be less than UK ones and manufacturing will return to this island, which will mean shorter lead times but probably lower quality; the Chinese are very good at what they do and have revolutionised RTR, to the point that it has effectively killed the kit business and few people can scratchbuild better stuff!

 

I perfectly understand that it can take some time to get a model from the drawing board / research into production and have a lot of sympathy for the manufacturers when there are unexpected delays that are out of their control. But in such a climate, the policies of Hornby and Bachmann to name but two are very different.

 

Hornby has traditionally waited before announcing a model until it is fairly confident that it will be released during the validity of the current catalogue. It announces a price on announcement and, even if there is a delay, maintains that price on release. On the other hand, Bachmann has traditionally announced new models much earlier, usually when they are at the research stage. This means that models are much further away from production and it is pretty much inevitable that costs and therefore price will rise in the meantime.

 

I really don't think it's doing anyone in the hobby any favours by constantly putting the price up before a model is released. In fact I'd say it does exactly the opposite; it puts people off because something that was affordable suddenly isn't. If Bachmann cannot keep to its first announced price upon release, personally I would much prefer that they adopted the Hornby approach of announcing much later and with a price that they can keep to even when a new catalogue has been released in the meantime. With the seemingly additional delays Bachmann is currently experiencing, this approach would seem to have even more merit.

[mdvle]

Bachmann is going through a tough time at the moment, and I doubt Bachmann is any happier than the customers than it has gone on for as long as it has.

 

Certainly if you go back a little further many will remember that Hornby went through a similar period where they were unable to follow through with their plans in a timely manner but Hornby did eventually get things back under control.  Bachmann will to at some point.

 

As for prices, it is a no win.  Bachmann have in fact stopped announcing prices on many items - if you go to the Bachmann website you will see many items that are listed as TBA - but the problem is that there is at least one, if not more, retailers who proceed to give an "estimated" price which the consumer who doesn't pay attention likely assumes is a price coming from Bachmann.

[brushman47544]

As for prices, it is a no win.  Bachmann have in fact stopped announcing prices on many items - if you go to the Bachmann website you will see many items that are listed as TBA - but the problem is that there is at least one, if not more, retailers who proceed to give an "estimated" price which the consumer who doesn't pay attention likely assumes is a price coming from Bachmann.

 

I agree it's a no win, but price "TBA" is almost as bad in my view as a price that then keeps going up. The point being that something has been announced, I would like it, but I don't know if I will be able to afford it. It's like having something dangled in front of you then having it pulled it away when you reach for it.

 

Personally I'd rather not know at all until an accurate price can be given.

[seeseerider]

Hi all,

 

I‘d like to say I think you should all enjoy the many options you have available in the oo scale from Bachmann etc. I come from a continental 1 gauge and uk o gauge background. I’m currently enjoying the relative instant joy of an oo gauge layout. Trust me guys the latest stuff out there is really terrific and compared to other scales it really is all very reasonably priced (compared to what one needs to fork out for 1 gauge (sometimes more than 1K for 1 coach!) it’s dirt cheap in terms of value for money) - i say just enjoy it - and be greatful Bachmann and Hornby are still here at all.