Bachmann Delays...will products ever arrive?

[Jub45565]

 

Why Bachmann announced models it cant manufacturer is just plain crazy. Hattons price estimated that this would cost customers £233 for the sound fitted 31-517DS model.   By the time it arrives I am predicting a price over over £300!   

 

You could build an actual 1:1 Scale Ocean Liner in less time!!!

 

 

 

I can understand the disappointment, but as others have said it is a bit of a first world problem.

 

For a start, if you can afford £233 over 18 months then £300 over 48 months is surely far easier to save for :-)

 

Lets compare apples with apples. We have effectively just had the next generation Trident 'announced'. Lets see when they float (or sink, or whatever they do :-S).  If you already have the full design pack ready to go it isnt the same.  For example, have we seen the aircraft carriers yet? When were they announced?

 

Edited to reapply the quote box...

Edited May 11, 2015 by Jub45565

[jjb1970]

The main difference is a simple contractual one. If you build a ship you sign a contract, there are phased payments and the builder is contractually obligated to meet a delivery date. With models the supplier tells you they plan to make something but we do not pay up front (well, not normally) and there is no contractual obligation on the supplier to actually make what is announced. If they were to take payment up front, either in part or in full then it would be a completely different scenario.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Ron, I take it that you have looked at the 2014 financial report? (The 2014 number was only reported a couple of weeks ago.)

 

Some interesting reading there.

I have indeed read it....and the previous years.

(n.b. RMweb gets its now usual annual mention too.)

Very interesting reading indeed. 

They have clearly been very busy trying to get into shipshape, ready to deal with a very different environment to the one we have lived through over the last decade.

 

A completely different but not unrelated story, is how Kader's front line subsidiaries, like Bachmann Europe, are affected by the situation back in China and the challenges the parent places upon them.

All that on top of dealing with the challenges of the local marketplace.

Naturally we'll not be privy to most of what goes on, but would the extended delays in obtaining supplies of new products, demonstrate that it might be having some effect on turnover?

 

 

 

 .

[Ozexpatriate]

(n.b. RMweb gets its now usual annual mention too.)

Duly noted. I very nearly quoted it earlier.

 

Naturally we'll not be privy to most of what goes on, but would the extended delays in obtaining supplies of new products, demonstrate that it might be having some effect on turnover?

I would think so. It's hard to build products when you close factories. Taking your original theme, I found the five year summary page (second from the last) very interesting - turnover is 50% of what it was in 2010.

 

One wonders how much of that turnover was for third party manufacturing services for the likes of Hornby (and others).

 

At least this year, for the first time in four years, they made money on operations (including model railways) and didn't have to rely on real estate to keep the company afloat.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[Ron Ron Ron]

.... I found the five year summary page (second from the last) very interesting - turnover is 50% of what it was in 2010.

 

.....One wonders how much of that turnover was for third party manufacturing services for the likes of Hornby (and others).

 

 

It's best not to look at the two end points to see what's happened. The story is in between.

It's also useful to look at the the preceding four years (2006 to 2009) and the corresponding profit from operations for each year.

 

(HK$ 'ooo) 

 

2006  Turnover    643,216  - Profit from ops    69,044

2007  Turnover    721,709  - Profit from ops    90,896   (big rise in turnover and profit)

2008  Turnover    911,191  - Profit from ops    93,804   (even bigger rise in turnover, but profits increase marginally - recession starts)

2009  Turnover 1,537,676  - Profit from ops    89,547   (take over of Sanda Kan, increased turnover and a reduction in profit - loss making Sanda Kan)

2010  Turnover 1,600,246  - Profit from ops    76,320   (recession and Sanda Kan losses increase)

2011  Turnover 1,299,487  - Profit from ops (113,829)  (recession bites, many OEM customers dumped, turnover plummets, profit turns to massive loss)

2012  Turnover 1,251,061  - Profit from ops   (97,443)  

2013  Turnover    927,773  - Profit from ops   (60,981)  (Sanda Kan and OEM contracts being wound up - almost halved the losses compared to 2011)

2014  Turnover    825,229  - Profit from ops      4,284   (Sanda Kan closed and losses stemmed)

 

Turnover has now returned to just under where it was prior to the Sanda Kan take over. The challenge is to rebuild profitability. 

 

 

.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ozexpatriate]

Turnover has now returned to just under where it was prior to the Sanda Kan take over. the challenge is rebuild profitability.

Nice assessment and nicely summarized - thanks for tracking that down and adding very relevant and articulate comments. I fully concur. (I couldn't press the like, agree and thanks buttons all at once.)

 

It is all very consistent with Bachmann Branch-Line's relatively constrained programmes of new announcements in the last couple of years and the long lead times for some of their recently announced offerings.

 

It's not surprising to see them not taking on a lot of new commissions lately either.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[Multiple identity account]

Can we please have sensible debate and exchange of opinion that doesn't descend to levels of immaturity such as this ?

 

Nothing immature in that. I've had nothing but good service from Hornby. Being an international customer I've still had exceptional service from them with little or no issues. Bachmann has been the opposite to me. As I stated that this was just my personal opinion and I was lucky to see the better side of Hornby.

 

Furthermore I'd prefer buying a model from a company I like and supporting the smaller suppliers with their kits (alot of RMwebbers do that).

 

And to my last point, there are alot of members on this forum who have a double standard and love to bash Hornby, but when it comes to Bachmann there are alot of excuses ready thus giving Bachmann a lot of leverage. 

 

So where is the immaturity in that? I shared my personal opinion with Dave (never forced anyone to believe in it), accepted that others feel just the opposite. I showed my support to the smaller suppliers which also aids me in my modelling skills and I simply stated a fact about some RMwebbers who've been constantly behind anything Hornby did. Alot of people were not pleased when Hornby decided to announce the SR MN but no one is complaining about Bachmann's announcement that is due.

 

If you think I am immature, there is simply no need to reply to my posts. I think logic suggests you buy what you like, be open to others opinions, have a standard and keep the main aim of the hobby going. That is what has been promoted by this forum which is excellent and that is what I did.

 

Cheers!

[Ian Hargrave]

Nothing immature in that. I've had nothing but good service from Hornby. Being an international customer I've still had exceptional service from them with little or no issues. Bachmann has been the opposite to me. As I stated that this was just my personal opinion and I was lucky to see the better side of Hornby.

 

Furthermore I'd prefer buying a model from a company I like and supporting the smaller suppliers with their kits (alot of RMwebbers do that).

 

And to my last point, there are alot of members on this forum who have a double standard and love to bash Hornby, but when it comes to Bachmann there are alot of excuses ready thus giving Bachmann a lot of leverage. 

 

So where is the immaturity in that? I shared my personal opinion with Dave (never forced anyone to believe in it), accepted that others feel just the opposite. I showed my support to the smaller suppliers which also aids me in my modelling skills and I simply stated a fact about some RMwebbers who've been constantly behind anything Hornby did. Alot of people were not pleased when Hornby decided to announce the SR MN but no one is complaining about Bachmann's announcement that is due.

 

If you think I am immature, there is simply no need to reply to my posts. I think logic suggests you buy what you like, be open to others opinions, have a standard and keep the main aim of the hobby going. That is what has been promoted by this forum which is excellent and that is what I did.

 

Cheers!

This is a forum for reasoned discussion and not "bashing".This is also a thread to discuss and not lay into one manufacturer and use it as it might seem a Heaven-sent opportunity to raise the flag of another. In it you choose to make wildly unsubstantiated assertions about other members of this forum and continue with what from previous posts appears to be a one member crusade against Bachmann.You obviously have your own agenda and it might be useful to reflect that it might be better for us all if you toned it down a bit.

The sentiment expressed in my previous post still applies.No,I'm not going to walk away.I and many others have purchased from Bachmann and other manufacturers over the last decade and more with on balance small cause for complaint but the odd gripe here and there.But it is only that..a gripe...and not full -blown bellyache.

[black and decker boy]

There is life outside of model railways so I don't understand why our hobby creates such knashing of teeth over delays, prices, loco numbers etc. it should not dominate our life's to the extent we get angry that a model has't arrived, surely we can still play trains with our other models?

 

We have several excellent suppliers of RTR, new companies promising to join the fray and a reasonably healthy cottage industry to support it. We should be happy, relaxed and getting on with enjoying ourselves, we only get one life and to spend it in a fury over a delayed model seems a waste.

 

When new models arrive, be that after 1,2,3 or 4 years, and no matter the colour, price or manufacturer, we are free to buy or not.

 

I really fancied a Rapido APT but decided my cash was already committed and it was a luxury I would have to do without. I'm not angry about that, I have many great models to run, detail and admire and have more to come when they are in stock.

[bmthtrains - David]

Reminds me of a customer I once had who wanted to buy a book that was due to be published that he had been keeping an eye on since it had been announced. When I had to tell him the book wasn't out yet, he got incredibly angry and started shouting. To calm him down I told him I'd phone the distributor to find out if there was a delay. There was, they had changed the publication date to 2020 (publishing shorthand for 'unknown'). He came back in and exploded once more, reducing two staff to tears. I phoned the publishers rep, and he did some digging and said yes the book had been delayed indefinitely.

 

Customer returned again, you can imagine his reaction, and demanded to know why. I managed to get hold of the book's publishing editor, who simply told me the author hadn't finished it yet.

 

To this, the customer's response was to demand compensation for the inconvenience. I duly took his details but told him there probably wasn't anything I could do, and he thankfully left.

 

When I checked his name before putting the scrap of paper into the 'round filing cabinet' (short, usually containing a bin bag), I discovered he was actually the author of said book...

 

Moral of the story?

 

Good things come to those who wait, and those who get hysterically impatient are generally crazy.

 

David

[tamperman36]

Heres a really silly idea.

Why dont these companies look a starting production in this country once again, we have thousands of people out of work, thousands of people with good education, good expertese in manufacturing and engineering just left on the scrap heap as the country develops its latest craze of phone sales. Maybe it would help turn the tide of ever increasing costs in production and transporting.

It may also help cut down lead times between drawing, making the tools and getting the preproduction samples, if its all done in this country your not waiting for the next ship to arrive just a courier from another area of the country.

[brushman47544]

Remember, they also suffered a very large fall in global sales as a result of the recession and rapidly rising costs has since come into play.

 

Arguably a fall in global sales would release capacity that should speed up production timescales, not slow them down.

 

4 - 5 years from announcement to delivery is not unknown.  It is a particularly frustrating wait for all of us with items on order.  

the 4CEP took around 4 years from announcement to box. I expect there are a few others, too.

 

I don't have a problem with a longer wait than the 12-18 months Bachmann aims for, my gripe is that they continue to pretend that these timescales are still deliverable, which they are clearly not a present. It's tantamount to blocking new products for an indefinite period because no other manufacturer will risk going for them in the knowledge that Bachmann is producing them. Or as in the case of its Mk2e coaches, Hornby rushes a product to market so as not to be beaten to the shelves by Bachmann's Mk2fs and makes a poorer job of them as a result, which it didn't need to do since the 2fs are still years away.

 

I also don't like the consequence of these early announcements that Bachmann cannot quote a price. I really don't like being told that something is being produced that I want, but by the time it's released I may not be able to afford it. Again Hornby is pretty good in that even if products have been delayed, the price doesn't seem to go up when it's released. Bachmann doesn't even do this for models that appear in the following catalogue year. If Bachmann knows a model will be several years in the making, then it should build the annual price increases into the advertised price. If it can't, it shouldn't announce until it can.

[Gwiwer]

Heres a really silly idea.

Why dont these companies look a starting production in this country once again, we have thousands of people out of work, thousands of people with good education, good expertese in manufacturing and engineering just left on the scrap heap as the country develops its latest craze of phone sales. Maybe it would help turn the tide of ever increasing costs in production and transporting.

It may also help cut down lead times between drawing, making the tools and getting the preproduction samples, if its all done in this country your not waiting for the next ship to arrive just a courier from another area of the country.

 

Union-agreed wage rates mean that labour costs in the UK are still way above what the Chinese get paid.  Conditions are also vastly different as anyone who might have seen recent images from inside the factories there would be aware.  Primitive is how I would describe them.  If such conditions endured here there would be a huge outcry, the Elfin Safety people would shut the place down, the unions would call a strike and we should have nothing to run on our layouts.

 

it's worth remembering if we whinge about production delays and model costs that those models are assembled from minuscule parts which are often hand-fitted from an array of plastic tubs on a bare workbench.  By workers (mostly female as it happens though their sex is immaterial) expected to stand for many hours, take home pitiful rewards (still, despite pay rises) and often working in coats when it's cold.  Indoors.  

 

I am aware of at least one manufacturer who has looked hard at the costs of bringing the job back to UK shores but has found that - for the foreseeable future - the costs involved are most unlikely to be borne by the end consumer in the marketplace.  

 

Unless you are prepared to pay perhaps £400 for that locomotive which currently retails at around £150 to support British jobs.  

 

Therein lies the harsh reality.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

..Why dont these companies look a starting production in this country once again...

Take a look at Oxford's site here: http://www.oxfordrail.com/

 

Quote: "I have a passion for engineering and the eventual return of manufacturing to the UK. I ran the last mass production plant of diecast vehicles in the UK - I plan at the right time to be the first to bring it back." This is a guy who knows his industry sector, the fact that he is manufacturing in China tells all.

[Oakydoke]

Heres a really silly idea.

 

... Maybe it would help turn the tide of ever increasing costs

You started off so well.............

[tamperman36]

Maybe its time to start lobbying the goverment to look at why the costs are so high in this country, if you look around our towns and cities we have hundreds if not thousands of empty industrial units which just fall into disrepair. This country was once the place to get anything manufactured, its about time we started working at getting back to making things and not just shipping everything in.

[phil-b259]

Heres a really silly idea.

Why dont these companies look a starting production in this country once again, we have thousands of people out of work, thousands of people with good education, good expertese in manufacturing and engineering just left on the scrap heap as the country develops its latest craze of phone sales. Maybe it would help turn the tide of ever increasing costs in production and transporting.

It may also help cut down lead times between drawing, making the tools and getting the preproduction samples, if its all done in this country your not waiting for the next ship to arrive just a courier from another area of the country.

 

 

Maybe its time to start lobbying the goverment to look at why the costs are so high in this country, if you look around our towns and cities we have hundreds if not thousands of empty industrial units which just fall into disrepair. This country was once the place to get anything manufactured, its about time we started working at getting back to making things and not just shipping everything in.

 

Not AGAIN!

 

We have had this discussion hundreds of times and no amount of whinging is going to change the fundamentals.

 

For those who need it the basics are this:-

 

(1) We have something called a minimum wage in this country (for very good reasons I hasten to add). The wage a Chinese lady gets is a fraction of this.

(2) Assembling model railway locomotives correctly actually requires quite a lot of dexterity and skill, which cannot be automated - and which needs to be rewarded appropriately.

(3) Things like rent, utility bills etc are a lot less in China than the UK - thus a labour intense factory costs a lot less to run.

 

If you want production to return to the UK prices of models would have to triple in price.

 

As for the supposed 'red tape burden' in the UK, while not everything is perfect, the complaints about regulation basically come more from hard nosed uncaring business leaders / individuals whose only concern is profit and shareholder value, not the effects of loser regulation have on society at home (e.g. the growth in zero hour contracts, the effective obliteration of defined benefit pensions, etc.) They ignore the fact within Europe we have one of the most flexible and business friendly environment for companies to invest if the figures stack up - however when it comes to labour intensive industries, its simply a fact that the developed world cannot complete with the far east.

 

As for the decline in manufacturing - all those people lamenting the decline in such things should take heed of the following statistic:- The UK today produces MORE cars than it ever did during the mid 70s, a time when many believe the British motor industry was thriving. The difference between now and then is the car makers are overseas owned and thanks to automation of assembly through robotics, the number of people employed is tiny by comparison.

Edited May 12, 2015 by phil-b259

[Ron Ron Ron]

.......The UK today produces MORE cars than it ever did during the mid 70s, a time when many believe the British motor industry was thriving. The difference between now and then is the car makers are overseas owned and thanks to automation of assembly through robotics, the number of people employed is tiny by comparison.

 

Also, made to a a quality and superior level of mechanical and technological sophistication, unimaginable back in those dark days.

 

As for the whole post, well said Phil !

 

.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

 effects of loser regulation 

 

Is that regulation in support of losers, or against losers?  

 

In other news, I see they had another 7.4 magnitude earthquake in Nepal this morning, the third big one in as many weeks.

 

I will wait for Bachmann and the rest to deliver, and if they don't I won't cry about it.

[Ron Ron Ron]

As for "home" manufacture, or "near home" manufacture; Roco/Fleischmann (Austrian and German) have for a few years now, been building many of their products in Romania at their own new modern factory.

Although production is not on home soil, it is within the EU and exploits the cost savings provided by much lower labour costs and other lower operational overheads.

 

Despite the savings this gives the manufacturer, retail prices compared to those in the UK for Chinese made products, are still much higher.

 

Of course I could shoot my own argument down, because there are many reasons why RTR prices are higher in Germany than in the UK. Plus the fact here are some German RTR manufacturers who source some of their range from Chinese factories, but it doesn't lead to UK type low prices.

However, my point is that even moving production to low cost eastern Europe, would significantly increase the price we'd be paying for our toys. Bringing production to the UK would come at an even higher price.

 

 

Oh yes!

As this topic is about Bachmann; production is already being carried out "at home". 

They are part of a Chinese company after all !

 

 

.

[jjb1970]

As far as Kader are concerned the UK market is just another source of potential profit or loss and they have no emotional or nationalistic reasons to consider that the UK market must remain a part of their operations. I am always amazed when people sometimes get mad about Bachmann and lose sight of the fact that to Kader the average UK modellers means no more than the average Chinese factory worker does to UK modellers. A business relationship, just as we buy Bachmann models based on them being a good product at a fair price so Kader make those models on the basis they can turn a profit. Just as we would not buy a model if it fell down on quality or was over priced by our own value criteria so Bachmann will not stay in the UK market if it is not worth their effort to do so.

[MikeParkin65]

^{Having spent the usual 1 hour of frustration fitting the detailing parts to a Bachmann Compound this weekend I again marvel at the skills of the factory assemblers and can't beleive that we can buy models of this quality so cheaply.}

 

^{Reason for edit: typing without reading glasses on!}

Edited May 12, 2015 by MikeParkin65

[andyman7]

I have the Trix 1968 catalogue and I'm still waiting for their promised super detail 4mm scale class 47. I'm convinced my local dealer has promised to honour a pre-order price of £1/9/11 

Edited May 12, 2015 by andyman7

[Ron Ron Ron]

I have the Trix 1968 catalogue and I'm still waiting for their promised super detail 4mm scale class 47. I'm convinced my local dealer has promised to honour a pre-order price of £1/9/11 

 

It's not in the Trix 2014 or 2015 catalogues, so they must have quietly dropped it ?????????

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[Legend]

I'd prepare yourself for a disappointment Ron !