DCC Point Control

Re: DCC Point Control

Postby metroman » Thu May 01, 2008 6:09 pm

Hi,
This has turned into a good topic. I will only possibly have 6 points on my HOe layout. That is basically why I have decided to control them digitally.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby Diggy » Thu May 01, 2008 10:09 pm

metroman wrote:Hi,
This has turned into a good topic. I will only possibly have 6 points on my HOe layout. That is basically why I have decided to control them digitally.
Martin


Martin

As you are going digital, the CML DAC10 works well.

What controller will you be using?

Attached is a photograph of the unit in use.

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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby jhmcaleely » Thu May 01, 2008 10:31 pm

I've recently built a shunting plank (3 points, peco solenoids), and on a whim bought a hornby accessory decoder to control them.

I have no regrets - I see two big wins:

- Control of the layout from wherever I've got the controller in my hand (I've also got hands-off couplers)

- Neat wiring - all the wires stay on the board, and are near the decoder. For this tiny layout I simply wired the accessory decoder to the track power bus:

Image

I do have a track plan to hand with point numbers marked on, for new operators. I've found I could memorise the 3 addresses. I would have thought that button pushing would drive me mad, but it actually has a nice rhythm to it on a small layout.

As a plus, I'm all set up to play with computer control later.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby metroman » Fri May 02, 2008 8:12 am

Hi,
I am sticking with the Roco system. I have a digital set with the multiMAUS controller, and I have on order the Roco 10775 point decoder.
Martin
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby metroman » Fri May 02, 2008 8:35 am

I have bought some Peco 009 electrofrog points, for my DCC HOe layout. I have used electrofrog points on my standard gauge layout in my loft, and I have no problem with the wiring of them. Now, is DCC going to any more difficult to wire, or should i have gone for insulfrog points. I have looked around the net, and found different opinons as to whether to use electrofrog or insulfrog.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby Diggy » Fri May 02, 2008 8:52 am

metroman wrote:I have bought some Peco 009 electrofrog points, for my DCC HOe layout. I have used electrofrog points on my standard gauge layout in my loft, and I have no problem with the wiring of them. Now, is DCC going to any more difficult to wire, or should i have gone for insulfrog points. I have looked around the net, and found different opinons as to whether to use electrofrog or insulfrog.
Martin


Hi Martin

I have used Peco Code 100 insulfrog points and all I have done is put insulating rail connectectors (plastic) on the rails coming from the vee of the frog and I have had no problems in its use. I cannot comment on elctrofrog, however, I got most oif my advise from the following website which I found to be very useful.

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/

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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby metroman » Fri May 02, 2008 9:06 am

Hi,
Thanks, I have had a quick look at the site. I was just a bit worried about getting any shorts with DCC.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby jhmcaleely » Fri May 02, 2008 9:34 am

The points on my (00) plank are all quite old electrofog peco. I followed the wiring advice in the boxes for 'zero 1', which rather shows their age I suspect.

It all works a treat.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby metroman » Fri May 23, 2008 5:38 pm

Hi,
I received the Roco 10775 point decoder today. Anyone familiar with it will see that the supply is fed to the J-K terminals. Can anyone explain exactly how to connect the power supply to the 10775. I am using the 10764 amplifier and the roco multimaus. Thanks.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby rossord » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:34 pm

Hello All. I am in the process of converting a Dc layout to DCC and I am unsure whether I will need to use a CDU in conjunction with the points decoder. I use ECOS ESU ( which is first class) and have bought my first Switchpilot. There is no mention of CDU's in the manual. If I do need a CDU, where in the ciccuit should it be wired? I am happy to use a seperate power supply rather than take power from the track. The points motors are mainly SEEP. I would be grateful for any advice as I have not yet graduated beyond novice status. Regards. Ross Ord.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby amdaley » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:57 pm

metroman wrote:I have bought some Peco 009 electrofrog points, for my DCC HOe layout. I have used electrofrog points on my standard gauge layout in my loft, and I have no problem with the wiring of them. Now, is DCC going to any more difficult to wire, or should i have gone for insulfrog points. I have looked around the net, and found different opinons as to whether to use electrofrog or insulfrog.
Martin


Hi Martin.
You have used Electrofrog points up in the loft & they work fine for you. You are familier with the wiring of them.
Stick with them. I presume in your loft layout you put insulted rail joiners of the frog rails. Do the same with DCC.
Regards.
Tony Daly.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby metroman » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:03 pm

Hi,
Thanks for that. I am in the process of installing some trackwork and points, I am going to use the insulated joiners at the frog end of the points.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby G.M.R. » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:26 pm

rossord wrote:Hello All. I am in the process of converting a Dc layout to DCC and I am unsure whether I will need to use a CDU in conjunction with the points decoder. I use ECOS ESU ( which is first class) and have bought my first Switchpilot. There is no mention of CDU's in the manual. If I do need a CDU, where in the ciccuit should it be wired? I am happy to use a seperate power supply rather than take power from the track. The points motors are mainly SEEP. I would be grateful for any advice as I have not yet graduated beyond novice status. Regards. Ross Ord.


I have a mixture of switch controlled point motors and accessory decoders as I am gradually moving across to all the motors controlled by decoders when I can afford them all. I have used a CDU from square one. I have a very simple unit which is little more than a large capacitor with just a few additional components. It cost very little. I feed it with a simple 16v ac power supply - in fact an old Hornby power pack. The output of the CDU provides about 24v this way, but because of the circuitry in the CDU it only provides a short pulse of power to anything connected to its output. It can be connected directly to a Peco point motor without burning it out. When it is disconnected from the motor, the capacitor recharges ready for the next use. (Just takes a fraction of a second).

Where using switches, I simply use a centre off toggles as it doesn't matter how long I actually keep them thrown with my large digits. Where using decoders, I simply connect the output of the CDU to the power input connections on my decoders - these are quite seperate to the DCC inputs required for control. Although the decoder only sends a pulse of power to the motors, the capacity of the CDU ensures a very positive throw of the point - I am sure that SEEP will act the same way as the PECOs.

I have tried running a decoder that just used the track supply and had no capacitor, but I found that whilst it would just about throw a point on the workbench, when in place and ballasted, the slightest stickiness stopped operation.

Hope this helps.
Geoff
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby Neil_s_wood » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:52 am

rossord wrote:Hello All. I am in the process of converting a Dc layout to DCC and I am unsure whether I will need to use a CDU in conjunction with the points decoder. I use ECOS ESU ( which is first class) and have bought my first Switchpilot. There is no mention of CDU's in the manual. If I do need a CDU, where in the ciccuit should it be wired? I am happy to use a seperate power supply rather than take power from the track. The points motors are mainly SEEP. I would be grateful for any advice as I have not yet graduated beyond novice status. Regards. Ross Ord.

You can program the Switchpilot to raise the power supply to the point motor. The Switch pilot has this ability so that it can accomodate Peco point motors. There are instructions in the manual on how to program via the programming track. You probably want to try this to see if you actually need a CDU.

You are best to have a separate power supply for the point motors.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby rossord » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:26 am

Thank you Geoff and Neil for your replies. I was not sure if connecting a cdu to the decoder power supply would harm the decoder. i will try first withour using a cdu (i have one in the present Dc wiring) and if that fails to move the points, i will include the cdu.When starting from scratch it's always reassuring to hear from those with experience! Regards. Ross.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby metroman » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:51 pm

Hi,
I have been told that under no circumstances should I use a CDU for point control under DCC.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby PaulCheffus » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:18 pm

metroman wrote:Hi,
I have been told that under no circumstances should I use a CDU for point control under DCC.
Regards
Martin


Hi

Depends how its wired. I use the MERG accessory decoders (pulse version) and these have a built in CDU (one for each decoder).

Cheers

Paul
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby dwhite4dcc » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:42 pm

metroman wrote:Hi,
I have been told that under no circumstances should I use a CDU for point control under DCC.
Regards
Martin


That is nonsense. You will need an accessory decoder that can handle the pulse voltage that these solenoid motors need to work properly. Some seem better at it than others. If you are concerned, use a Masterswitch from our sponsors Bromsgrove.

The Digitrax DS64 claims to be able to operate solenoids direct and I believe that Nigel Cubitt, of this parish, does just that.

The only downside is that the built in capacitor in these decoders needs a second or two to recharge. Sometimes, when one sets a route with the Digitrax, this can confuse the CDU.

There are many decoders on the market and I suspect that Roco, your system I believe, uses solenoids or is it an option on Roco points?

The other reason to pick other than solenoids is the fact that they can break delicate finescale points due to the sudden, non adjustable throw. Non spring loaded points also need self latching motors.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby peach james » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:27 am

Hamilton wrote:(snip)

A mimic diagram provided at each box location on the facia complete with an operating lever frame corresponding with the points and signals at that signal box completes the operation. The lever frame is on a drawer that slides into the facia when not in use to prevent damage and shirt sleeve catches! Using the CML products but driven from the lever frame instead of push buttons with detection from Digitrax LocoNet using BDL168s lighting up the mimic panel showing occupancy of a block.

Haven't yet decided if to have signals automatically controlled by block detection or some hybrid as I don't know if I want to be a signalman and driver when operating the layout by myself. Perhaps two modes. Switch to fully automatic signalling or manual signalling controlled by signal boxes. :?:


I'm going down a quite similar road, as I am unsure of how many modes I want. I'm guessing here, but the lever frames are the Modutrac ones? If so, I have a 24 lever one built up for the scenic portion of my layout.

I'm using RR&Co Ver 5.0, which I bought ~4 years ago now. The plan as it stands now is to use Tortoise motors (have some of them installed) driving both turnouts and signals. The primary interlocking is the mechanical, but the computer needs to be able to drive it as well. This is going to be accomplished by having a seperate "switchboard" in RR&Co, I think...not sure how well it will all work out in the end. I figure that I am going to have to write some macro programming to be able to get it all to work in the way I want it to. At present, a total of 1 signal is connected (one of my distant's). It's driven by the position of the lever only at present...been busy running trains with the computer, trying to get more track laid...the other bits required for a 12x36' layout, not including the staging

I see 4 modes of operation:
1. Signalman.
Trains shuttled to the start sections, as signals are cleared, the trains pass through the station area & return to the staging area. "Enhancements" to this include telegraph/block instruments needing to be worked.

2. Engine Driver

Signal box is ignored, with trains coming to a stop at the home signal before the station, control passed to the driver, driven through the station area, and return to the computer at the opposite end. Probably working opposite trains, so as to avoid the 36' walk from end to end. The computer would control the signals based on the trains actions and destination. Since I am modeling the S&C, 95% of the trains modeled are either stopping, or express...only 1/20 is going to be a trip working, I think.

The track plan is an exact scale length/width of Long Marton on the S&C. I have some photos & stuff up on the web:
James's Pacificcoast site

3. Auto (computer does both 1 &2)

4. Club (computer does neither, just stages trains to the home or distant)

I'm qualified as a controls tech, working mostly with air (pnumatic controls...why yes they are that old!), but I have a fair background on electronic controls as well. Mostly it comes down to time to build stuff. I finally have trains running again, after a hiatis of almost 3 years. (mostly work related, it's hard to do anything to the layout when you are on the opposite side of the globe...also caused in part by my house being tree'd...)

James Powell
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Also live steam- from 2 1/2" gauge to full size (21000 shp)
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby beast66606 » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:13 am

James,

you may - or may not - be interested in this topic ..

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13101

NEver quite finished it but happy to help if you need any futher info.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby DaveGeo » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:54 pm

Please forgive my ignorance on this subject - but have I read somewhere that you can have a situation where the decoder can be damaged if you try to link it to certain point motors in certain situations?

Sorry I can't be more explicit but I'm sure I clocked this as an issue from somewhere (i.e. when I get down to consider when I use Lenz accessory decoders)?

Dave
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby peach james » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:09 pm

beast66606 wrote:James,

you may - or may not - be interested in this topic ..

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13101

NEver quite finished it but happy to help if you need any futher info.



Oh yes, I have been reading your web page for "how to's", as I hate reinventing the wheel. Understanding the logic behind the signaling adds a lot to it...I came up with what was a 19 lever arrangement, but that includes a fair amount of shunting (disk) signals, which in real life I don't think were there...I'd think they were flagged from the box, as why install signals for movements that were probably 3x a week even when the S&C was brand new. Because I came up with more than 18 levers, I had some spares & added the two adjacent blocks (with distant/home levers). Modutrak's signal box is a very neat piece of kit, even if used as I have used it just to input into the DCC system. The big question is how to cover the interlocking with the trains running in "train driver" mode. In signalbox mode, the DCC system is really just in use as a way to avoid mechanical linkages because of the Modutrac lever frame. I had originally framed out an idea of using microswiches, levers, and locking motors to make a working lever frame. The Modutrac one is a FAR better solution than that.

To DaveGeo, as long as the stationary decoder is set up to operate the correct type of motor, and the amp draw is below the capability of the decoder, then there should be no way to burn out the decoder. I use Digitrax, and some of there stationary decoders are only capable of operating slow motion (tortoise, really...) decoders. That's what they are intended for, and will burn out if used with Peco solenoids...but that is clearly labeled in the instructions.

James
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Also live steam- from 2 1/2" gauge to full size (21000 shp)
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby DaveGeo » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:25 pm

Thanks for that clarification James.

Dave
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby metroman » Thu May 21, 2009 3:26 pm

Hi,
I have not done much work on my HOe layout. I am now building up a new HOe layout. As I mentioned in a previous post, I have the Roco multiMaus, the 10764 amp and the 10775 acc decoder. Would I be able to use Roco set track electrically operated points with this set up? Thanks.
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Re: DCC Point Control

Postby dwhite4dcc » Thu May 21, 2009 7:55 pm

Yes I would have expected that Roco points would be compatible with Roco command stations. All you need to check is that the setrack points don't include a decoder as standard
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