Derailment problem with Bachmann Manor Tender

Derailment problem with Bachmann Manor Tender

Postby GreenDiesel » Tue May 22, 2007 4:05 pm

I have a Bachmann Frilsham Manor loco that I bought last year. It's in new condition and runs well except for a derailment problem that I'm having with its tender. It derails at my Peco curved points, on the inner-most curve.

It could very well be how I've laid the track that's causing the problem, but I'm still 'suspicious' (that the tender could be at fault) because nothing else derails at these points. And I've tried weighting down the tender but the problem still happens.

The tender of my Collett 0-6-0 is almost identical to the FM's tender, yet it goes through these points no problem.

Has anyone else had problems with Bachman GWR/Manor tenders or could offer any advice?

Thanks,
Rob
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Postby John_Hughes » Tue May 22, 2007 4:09 pm

I can see two possibliities: either the wheel-sets don't have enough lateral movement to enable the vehicle to get round such a tight curve, or one of the wheel-sets - perhaps the middle one - is slightly wide to gauge. The latter may be easier to fix than the former.

What the prototype does in these circumstances is simply to ban the offending vehicle from going round such tight curves! Those 'Restriction' signs aren't just for show!
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Postby Phil » Tue May 22, 2007 4:10 pm

Does it derail when the tender is leading, or trailing, or both ?
Is the point/track dead flat ?

Those are the first two questions
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Postby sunshine coast » Tue May 22, 2007 4:12 pm

I have had a couple of those tenders where the axles have been a very sloppy fit into the axle boxes ,this may be the cause of your problem.
If it is then suggest return to the dealer or contact Bachmann,unless you wish to rewheel yourself. :? :?

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Postby GreenDiesel » Tue May 22, 2007 6:17 pm

sunshine coast wrote:I have had a couple of those tenders where the axles have been a very sloppy fit into the axle boxes ,this may be the cause of your problem.
If it is then suggest return to the dealer or contact Bachmann,unless you wish to rewheel yourself. :? :?

Regards Trevor...


Thanks, Trevor. I'll look into that. FYI, the first wheel set spins nicely when I spin it with my fingers. The other two, especially the last one, do not. Thanks, Rob
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Postby GreenDiesel » Tue May 22, 2007 6:21 pm

Phil wrote:Does it derail when the tender is leading, or trailing, or both ?
Is the point/track dead flat ?

Those are the first two questions


Thanks, Phil. It does derail when it's leading as well. But when I run the loco in an anti-clockwise (instead of clockwise) it does NOT derail. Only problem, it then derails (in the same way) at my other set of curved points!

Rob
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Postby GreenDiesel » Tue May 22, 2007 6:25 pm

John_Hughes wrote:I can see two possibliities: either the wheel-sets don't have enough lateral movement to enable the vehicle to get round such a tight curve, or one of the wheel-sets - perhaps the middle one - is slightly wide to gauge. The latter may be easier to fix than the former.

What the prototype does in these circumstances is simply to ban the offending vehicle from going round such tight curves! Those 'Restriction' signs aren't just for show!


John:

The first wheel set spins nicely when I spin it with my fingers but the other two don't spin as easily (which might indicate a poor fit?).

I'll also check the gauge of the wheel sets, especially the middle one. I was actually thinking of removing the middle wheel set and replacing it with one that doesn't have flanges -- perhaps that might work?

Otherwise, if the problem persists, I just might post a 'Restriction' sign at the curve & put up with it!

Thanks,
Rob
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Postby John_Hughes » Tue May 22, 2007 6:28 pm

It's also worth checking that the points are to gauge all the way through - on some Peco points, the gauge occasionally gets surprisingly narrow at various locations between the blades and the frog!

Even though your other current stock works fine, this is still worth checking because sooner or later something else will derail, and it's a problem which is therefore best fixed early.
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Postby GreenDiesel » Tue May 22, 2007 10:20 pm

John_Hughes wrote:It's also worth checking that the points are to gauge all the way through - on some Peco points, the gauge occasionally gets surprisingly narrow at various locations between the blades and the frog!
Even though your other current stock works fine, this is still worth checking because sooner or later something else will derail, and it's a problem which is therefore best fixed early.


Thanks, John. I'll check the gauge of the tender wheels as well as the Peco points. I used to have Hornby curved points but had a lot of problems with those so I switched to Peco. I was told by a few others (people on forums and staff at a hobby shop) that Peco was the best. So I sure hope these Peco points are OK!

Take care,
Rob
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Postby 34C » Wed May 23, 2007 7:14 am

Before regauging and and measuring up the point gauge, what happens if you push the tender alone through the troublespots?

Observe closely to see where and on what wheelset any derailment occurs. But if it will go through on its' own without derailing, then it is interaction with the loco that is the cause of the derailment. If there are two holes in the bar to couple loco and tender, how does the combination do when coupled using the hole at the end of the bar to increase the spacing?
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Postby Barry Ten » Wed May 23, 2007 7:45 am

Try swapping some of the wheels on the tender around, and if that fails, try swapping with wheels from the other tender.

Peco curved turnouts do seem to the ones where things are most likely to derail, in my experience- it can be a frustrating business tracking these things down.
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Postby shortliner » Wed May 23, 2007 8:01 am

One other possible cure - take a length of 0.005" phosphor bronze strip (Slaters or Mainly Trains) and bend it tightly around the checkrails between the rail and the checkrail - I had this problem on Hornby "set-track equivalent" points and this cured the problem - it is sometimes the case that the check raik doesn't pull the wheels quite far enough over, and the rails catch on the Vee of the frog, causing the derailment
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Postby GreenDiesel » Wed May 23, 2007 12:07 pm

34C wrote:Before regauging and and measuring up the point gauge, what happens if you push the tender alone through the troublespots?
Observe closely to see where and on what wheelset any derailment occurs. But if it will go through on its' own without derailing, then it is interaction with the loco that is the cause of the derailment. If there are two holes in the bar to couple loco and tender, how does the combination do when coupled using the hole at the end of the bar to increase the spacing?


I've done that -- pushed the tender by hand through the trouble spots. When I do, it usually does not derail but you can feel it binding -- it doesn't go through smoothly & easily. I'll do this again and try to determine which wheel set is causing this. Also, I believe the loco just has one hole so I can't change the spacing. Thanks -- these are good suggestions. Rob
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Postby GreenDiesel » Wed May 23, 2007 12:11 pm

Barry Ten wrote:Try swapping some of the wheels on the tender around, and if that fails, try swapping with wheels from the other tender.

Peco curved turnouts do seem to the ones where things are most likely to derail, in my experience- it can be a frustrating business tracking these things down.


Thanks, Al. This sounds like a good idea as well. I guess it's pretty easy to pry out the wheels withouth damaging anything (I've never removed tender wheels before). I think this is worth a try. Cheers, Rob
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Postby GreenDiesel » Wed May 23, 2007 12:13 pm

shortliner wrote:One other possible cure - take a length of 0.005" phosphor bronze strip (Slaters or Mainly Trains) and bend it tightly around the checkrails between the rail and the checkrail - I had this problem on Hornby "set-track equivalent" points and this cured the problem - it is sometimes the case that the check raik doesn't pull the wheels quite far enough over, and the rails catch on the Vee of the frog, causing the derailment


Thanks -- this sounds like a good idea but I'm not sure how to do this. Is it possible to send pics or provide more info? But please don't go to any extra trouble! Thanks again, Rob
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Postby shortliner » Wed May 23, 2007 3:49 pm

Try these

Image

Image

Image

Hope they help
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Postby GreenDiesel » Wed May 23, 2007 3:52 pm

Thanks for those pics, Shortliner! They're very helpful & I'll try this out. Rob
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Postby Nat D » Wed May 23, 2007 8:42 pm

I had a similar problem with a Bachmann 4MT which came off on tight curves.
I found that two of the tender wheelsets had sideplay in only one direction from the centre line, hope that makes sense. Once I removed the wheelsets I found that two of the wheelsets journals were too long on one end.
I filed them to the correct size and haven't had a problem since.

Anyway might be worth a look, hope this helps
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Postby GreenDiesel » Wed May 23, 2007 9:20 pm

Nat D wrote:I had a similar problem with a Bachmann 4MT which came off on tight curves.
I found that two of the tender wheelsets had sideplay in only one direction from the centre line, hope that makes sense. Once I removed the wheelsets I found that two of the wheelsets journals were too long on one end.
I filed them to the correct size and haven't had a problem since.
Anyway might be worth a look, hope this helps


Nat: I'll also try this, possibly tonight. I'll try removing the wheelsets and check to see if they're too long and need filing -- this should provide more leaway or play, right?

I've now checked their gauge. Two of the wheels are very slightly out of gauge, but not enough to cause a derailment. Thanks for this suggestion.

Rob
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Postby GreenDiesel » Thu May 24, 2007 3:53 am

OK, I've had some improvement.

Following some of the advice here, I removed two of the wheelsets (the back two) and filed them slightly to give them more movement. I also switched their locations. I've weighted the tender down (by an ounce) which might help a little, but the loco struggles in a couple places. I also slightly moved the track just before the curve points.

Now the tender passes through OK most of the time, but not always! At least it doesn't derail every time as it did before. So I'll still wrestle with this.

Thanks again for your suggestions!

Rob
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Some success

Postby GreenDiesel » Thu May 24, 2007 8:39 pm

As mentioned, I've had some success with the Manor's tender but it's still not 100%.

Also, this morning, I ran the Bachman 0-6-0 Collett round my track with ITS tender -- and its tender is practically identical to the Manor's, except for how it couples onto the loco.

As before, the Collett's tender passes through the points with no problems at all, while the Manor's still derails occasionally. So if they're identical, I can only surmise that there are some problems with the wheels still.

Rob
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Postby 34C » Thu May 24, 2007 9:54 pm

If you have two nominally identical units in terms of wheelbase and wheel diameter, one of which performs reliably, that's a great aid to diagnosis. Can you swap the wheelsets and test both again? If the problem moves with the wheels, do a close comparison and make the problem set as close as possible in all respects to the non-problem set. If the problem stays with the Manor, then suspect the loco to tender coupling.
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Postby GreenDiesel » Fri May 25, 2007 2:26 pm

34C wrote:If you have two nominally identical units in terms of wheelbase and wheel diameter, one of which performs reliably, that's a great aid to diagnosis. Can you swap the wheelsets and test both again? If the problem moves with the wheels, do a close comparison and make the problem set as close as possible in all respects to the non-problem set. If the problem stays with the Manor, then suspect the loco to tender coupling.


Thanks, 34C. Those are good suggestions and yes, having an identical tender (that works OK) really does help to solve the problem.

I haven't swapped the wheels yet but I'm thinking that the Manor tender's wheels are out of guage enough to cause the problem sporadically. I ran the Manor last night and had intermittant derailments. Then I ran it again about an hour later and it hardly derailed at all. But I still might try your suggestion this weekend ... but I'm worried that I might damage the tenders' frames/bodies by pulling out and switching wheels too often.

Cheers, Rob
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Problem seems to be solved!

Postby GreenDiesel » Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:23 pm

I just thought I'd let you know that the problem appears to be solved. I've got this tender working well now and not derailing!

I basically followed Nat D's advice and filed the wheel bearings (journals?) down a little to give them more sideplay. My theory, based on what Nat D said, was that there wasn't enough left-and-right movement with the wheels which caused them to bind.

At any rate, after doing this and a couple adjustments to that curve seems to have solved the problem. Thanks for all of your advice and feedback here!

Rob
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Problem seems to be solved!

Postby GreenDiesel » Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:24 pm

I just thought I'd let you know that the problem appears to be solved. I've got this tender working well now and not derailing!

I basically followed Nat D's advice and filed the wheel bearings (journals?) down a little to give them more sideplay. My theory, based on what Nat D said, was that there wasn't enough left-and-right movement with the wheels which caused them to bind.

At any rate, after doing this and a couple adjustments to that curve seems to have solved the problem. Thanks for all of your advice and feedback here!

Rob
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