L'pool Speke junction 8C, class 05 and 03 question

Postby SP Steve » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:16 pm

Mike,

If you decide to invest in 05 in the future then beware that they were built as two batches with differences:

D2550 ???‚¬??? D2573 3ft 4in wheels, shallow buffer beams, round buffers & small windows on cab rear and sides. Overall height was 11ft from rail to top of cab.

D2574 ???‚¬??? D2618 3ft 9in wheels, deep buffer beams, oval buffers and large cab windows. Overall height was 12ft

All of the 8C allocation would appear to come from the first batch and fortunately it is this version that Judith Edge Kits caters for!
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Postby michael delamar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:20 pm

thats a relief thanks,

some are preserved aswel which is nice, after checking them on fotopic,

so basically, 03s and 04s, where used, then replaced by 05s, thats all in the period the layout is set so thats great,

thanks again

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Postby michael delamar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:27 pm

SP Steve wrote:Mike,

If you decide to invest in 05 in the future then beware that they were built as two batches with differences:

D2550 ???‚¬??? D2573 3ft 4in wheels, shallow buffer beams, round buffers & small windows on cab rear and sides. Overall height was 11ft from rail to top of cab.

D2574 ???‚¬??? D2618 3ft 9in wheels, deep buffer beams, oval buffers and large cab windows. Overall height was 12ft

All of the 8C allocation would appear to come from the first batch and fortunately it is this version that Judith Edge Kits caters for!


phew :oops: that was lucky :D

i will get one although im yet to start one of theyre jackshaft kits first, ill be starting this very shortly, these where allocated to speke aswel , im ok for numbers on these, as the 2 books i have on liverpool caters for these, but no other diesels which was strange,
they wernt used in crown st yard, but where used on the wapping tunnel line which we have on the layout,judith edge do both versions of these.

Image


youve been a great help steve, thanks again

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Postby Ravenser » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:36 pm

OK , at last a diesel I know something about...

The 05s actually fell into 3 batches: the early primeval looking brutes, and the later batch , divided in 2 by the use of a different front radiator and round not angular corners to the cab windows. Batch 1 went to E Anglia, Batch 2a to Scotland, Batch 2b to Yorkshire

The Allerton 05s coming from the first batch... that's because they are the ones delivered to Ipswich in 1955 and reallocated when the Ipswich quay lines became largely defunct in 1966 (the 0-4-0 tram versions went to Goole at the same time)

The other option for an 05 is the Silver Fox body on a Bachmann 04 chassis: the wheels and therefore the total height aren't quite right but its pretty convincing. Again this is the early low roof version. I did D2556 , still in black c1960, by this route

The survivor that went to the Isle of Wight and became 05 001 was an ex Ipswich loco from the first batch
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Postby michael delamar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:28 pm

thanks Ravenser, i was wondering where they had came from

cheers

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Postby Swindon 123 » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:06 pm

The photo of D2553 at Speke/Garston is on its way down to Garston Docks. The houses and tenaments on the right are opposite the Bryant and May match factory. The photo is taken from the road bridge for the Garston to Liverpool Airport/Speke road. Speke Jcn yard would be just off the left hand edge of the photo which is looking east. Another pair of lines would have headed off left in a tight curve around to Allerton station as it was in those days. As far as I know Speke Jcn men only learnt the 05's. I remember talking to one about them and they were not keen on them. I don't think anyone who has had to work on them for long is, as although they have the same Gardner engine as an 03 & 04 the gearbox is a brute and hard work to shunt with.
One of my Uncles used to work at Speke Jcn in the yard during the 1950's & 60's and took same colour film of the place. This was been put onto video by the Garston & District Historical Society in 2001. The sequence is about 10 mins long and includes shots of the following loco's. Steam 48944, 49451, 52163 and 52232. Diesel LMS jackshaft shunters 12024 and 12026 and a green one whitch may be 12022. There are a couple of shots of the prototype Deltic on the Merseyside Express.
Also included on the video was a 10 min sequence showing the coal drops in action in Garston Dock in the 1980's with 16tonners being unloaded and another taken later in the decade when hoppers where used.
With regards to the yellow Hunslet I'm sure I've seen a shot of a similar one in use on the Liverpool docks. They had one supplied in 1952 that was numbered MDHB No34 but I can't find the photo at the moment.
Nice shot of D2553 and unusual as I haven't come across a shot of one actually working there before. The only other shots I have come across of an 05 in the NW have both been in North Wales.

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Postby michael delamar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:13 pm

hope they enspire you to get your one fixed fat bald bloke:lol:

Image12027

im sorry i cant remember where i got these, so i dont know who the photographer it, 1967 at Speke/Garston

i think ill do 12006 as it is in the photo above, as its a nice photo,

ive gone for gibson wheels for this, we'll see how long that lasts before i go for romfords :lol:
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Postby michael delamar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:17 pm

Swindon 123 wrote:The photo of D2553 at Speke/Garston is on its way down to Garston Docks. The houses and tenaments on the right are opposite the Bryant and May match factory. The photo is taken from the road bridge for the Garston to Liverpool Airport/Speke road. Speke Jcn yard would be just off the left hand edge of the photo which is looking east. Another pair of lines would have headed off left in a tight curve around to Allerton station as it was in those days. As far as I know Speke Jcn men only learnt the 05's. I remember talking to one about them and they were not keen on them. I don't think anyone who has had to work on them for long is, as although they have the same Gardner engine as an 03 & 04 the gearbox is a brute and hard work to shunt with.
One of my Uncles used to work at Speke Jcn in the yard during the 1950's & 60's and took same colour film of the place. This was been put onto video by the Garston & District Historical Society in 2001. The sequence is about 10 mins long and includes shots of the following loco's. Steam 48944, 49451, 52163 and 52232. Diesel LMS jackshaft shunters 12024 and 12026 and a green one whitch may be 12022. There are a couple of shots of the prototype Deltic on the Merseyside Express.
Also included on the video was a 10 min sequence showing the coal drops in action in Garston Dock in the 1980's with 16tonners being unloaded and another taken later in the decade when hoppers where used.
With regards to the yellow Hunslet I'm sure I've seen a shot of a similar one in use on the Liverpool docks. They had one supplied in 1952 that was numbered MDHB No34 but I can't find the photo at the moment.
Nice shot of D2553 and unusual as I haven't come across a shot of one actually working there before. The only other shots I have come across of an 05 in the NW have both been in North Wales.

Paul J.


oh excellent, would love to see that,

i may have a pic of the mdhb one somewhere aswel,

ill go and have a look :lol:

incidentley i thought the shot of the 05 was taken from Garston junction signal box, not the road bridge, weather it is or isnt im not arguing :lol:

either way as you say it is a rare shot

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Postby Swindon 123 » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:27 pm

michael delamar wrote
incidentley i thought the shot of the 05 was taken from Garston junction signal box, not the road bridge


You are most probably right michael.

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Postby michael delamar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:33 pm

noticing there that youve got one as your avatar, obviously got a keen interest in them,

im interested to know, if you do know, about the gearboxes, and driving them

would it have a clutch like a car for instance, if it is is it double dee clutch like the old lorries

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Postby Swindon 123 » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:45 pm

michael delamar wrote
noticing there that youve got one as your avatar, obviously got a keen interest in them,


My interest in them is very keen as I am the mechanical officer for the D2578 Locomotive Group. Driving one is very much like driving an old lorry as they do have a proper clutch that is multi plate and about 3 ft in diameter. The gearbox consists of 4 constant mesh gearsets that are engaged to the final drive and jackshaft by a pair of sliding dogs that engage 1st & 2nd and 3rd & 4th gears respectively. The operation is controlled by an air assisted gear selector that requires a double operation to change gear. The first movement disengages the clutch and then the gear you are in whilst the second movement of the gearshift engages the next gear and then the clutch, very much like an old lorry. This is hard work especially as when you want to change direction you have to go back down the gearbox before you can do so. The speed of the enging is critical in changing gear. Engine revs too high or too low and the sliding dogs will not engage. They even have a dirty great clutch pedal so you can still change gear if you loose your air supply. It is possible to stall the engine when starting off if you let the clutch out too quickly just like on a car and those who have driven it have quickly come to the conclusion that ideally you need 3 hands to drive the beast.
Its taken us nearly 5 years to get the loco back as near as we can to its 1965 condition, (we actually have the loco on video at Ladybank in that year), which involved us stripping it down to bare metal to identify the liveries it had carried.
Here are a couple of shot's of the loco in all its glory.

Image
Image

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Postby michael delamar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:57 pm

what a restoration job, looks absolutley beautiful,

a credit to you and everyone whos worked on her

theres something about them thats stylish, particularly the cab and windows

i remember my sister and I climbing all over one at steamport southport in the late 90s

if you ever get a chance, would be great to see a film of someone driving her, just to see whats involved


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Postby michael delamar » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:22 pm

Fat Bald Bloke wrote:Has anyone else noticed in Michael's photos the number on non standard 16 ton minerals?

Michael do have any more photos of shunters in the Liverpool area of the same period?


not from that source, but from books and dvds yeah

this is a scan of a photocopy of a book, which is why its so poor quality,

Image

an 02 and a pug at Sandhills 1961,


ive done a few screengrabs of b&r videos lancashire and yorkshire memories vol71 of speke junction shed, quality is down to the film im afraid its either 1967 or 68 but you can just make out a 03 or 04 in the shed, alongside a class 40,
Image

2jackshafts, hard to get this as the camera was panning round quick
Image

also done some of some interesting mineral wagons, the last one is ditton junction

Image

Image






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Postby flyingsignalman » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:17 pm

Image
I have found this pic of Lord Bert at Rathbone Road coal depot; you can see where the name Prince Charles has been painted out. The pic was taken 21/81978

(edit: date of pic amended)
Last edited by flyingsignalman on Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Swindon 123 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:49 pm

Have been asking some work colleagues and it seems that only Speke Jcn drivers knew the 05's and the loco's usually confined to working in and around Garston Docks. Unlikely to have got to Crown St but that's never stopped modellers licence in the past?
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Postby michael delamar » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:02 pm

SP Steve wrote:Mike,

8C did indeed have an allocation of 03s. Here for starters are:

D2198 11/67 to 5/68
D2199 8/61 to 12/66
D2372 4/64 to 12/66
D2385 9/61 to 11/62
D2389 10/63 to 8/66
D2390 10/63 to 8/66
D2393 3/63 to 12/66
D2394 4/64 to 8/66
D2396 12/67 to 5/68


looking on the locoshed index for 1962,

http://www.locosheds.co.uk/locos.asp?sh ... DGE%20HILL)&cyear=1962&code=8A

shows that class 03s- d2198 and d2393 mentioned above, where allocated to edge hill in 62, aswel as d2373, they obviously moved down the road to speke after here, shame the loco index doesent have more years, around 62 is luckily around the time the layout is set,



i think the ones to model would either be d2198 or d2393 for my class 03 as if they where based at edge hill, crown street would have been the job for them, i never knew any where actually based at edge hill,

flyingsignal man, thats a great pic, im yet to work out exactly where that is,

Paul, i still think ill do one after the 03 and 04, they are a good looking loco

many thanks for all the info so far everyone

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Postby flyingsignalman » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:01 pm

Mike, the photo was taken from the site of Edge Hill engine shed. The overheads behind the loco are on the up and down Chat Moss lines with Edge Hill stn to the left and Olive Mount Jcn (where these sidings joined the Chat Moss line) to the right.
The sidings were the former fast lines so the coal depot must have only opened about 1970 or so.
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Postby michael delamar » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:33 pm

got it now, :D

yeah when they took the fast lines up through olive mount they put a point in to here,

i see the conveyour belt is taking the coal up to where the original rathbone road coal depot was in steam days, the area known as "the camp"

great picture

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Postby Swindon 123 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:36 am

That 21T hopper is a bit tasty as well. A Huckbolt rebody on an LNER braked chassis with what looks like 9 leaf springs, unfitted but with bauxite body and solebar. Just about every variation you could think of on one wagon.

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Postby flyingsignalman » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:19 pm

I've found another pic I took the same day as the one of Lord Bert. This is taken from the site of Viaduct Jcn looking towards Edge Hill. It and the other were taken on 21/8/1978.
This one shows the Hunslet in green (lighter than Lord Bert's which was it's colour at Levers) and seeing this reminded me that both locos were painted yellow later on.
Image
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Postby michael delamar » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:05 pm

what a brilliant picture Keith

thought id post a eric treacy picture of the same place and a black 5 on the fast lines in the 1950s

just to compare :D

Image

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Postby flyingsignalman » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:07 pm

spot the difference :lol:
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