Sayersbridge Junction (4mm Finescale-ish)

Sayersbridge Junction (4mm Finescale-ish)

Postby Ian J. » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:24 pm

This post is the opening one for 'Sayersbridge Junction (with Dewick Street Shed)', following on from the planning thread (here) that has now in the main become redundant. I will occasionally, and probably quite infrequently, update it with news of what's happening. But for now, here are the pics of the existing boards:

Station, with platform edges in approximate positions:
Image

Approach throat:
Image

The 'junction' itself:
Image

Dewick Street Shed, turntable end...
Image

...and shed end
Image

Some of the track layout is slight odd, as originally the shed boards were to be kept at right angles to the junction board. The ballasted section of track on the junction board led to the curve on the turntable board. However I've now decided that the shed board will only be joining on the straightline of the junction, so the short curve needs to be straightened. It does leave a slightly odd switchback entrance to get to the shed (totalling five moves back and forth to get from the single track 'main line' to the actual shed building, but it's something I'll live with.
Last edited by Ian J. on Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction (with Dewick Street Shed)

Postby Ian J. » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:40 pm

A trio at Sayersbridge (please forgive the floral curtains in the background, not my idea, they came with the house when renting it):

Left to right, the latest acquisition, Sir Eustace Missenden - Southern Railway, L&Y Pug, Hornby 4MT.
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The Pug now has Exactoscale screw link couplings, not prototypical when they were in revenue earning service but I have a picture of 51218 in preservation with them, and as mine is supposed to represent a 'preserved' example I thought it was OK to fit them :mrgreen:
P1020106.JPG
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Pug cab detail shot, a bit dark, just like all the pics of the prototype I can find! :lol:
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The 4MT, detail fitted at front. I've also fitted the pipes to the tender, however for some reason Hornby don't include a screw link coupling for the tender so that's not fitted as yet. I will probably fit scale screw links to it but don't have any for it at the moment.
P1020111.JPG
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Now, in response to comment on the Hornby 4MT thread, I removed the tender glazing as the white around the edges was very prominent. I've used 'Kristal Klear' to put in replacements (second photo is how it was before):
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P1020098.JPG
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction (with Dewick Street Shed)

Postby Fursty » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:31 pm

Hi Ian

Nice to see the pug at home. I trust this is the one with the posh chassis. Is the layout using hand laid points and C&L track? Its looking good, hours of operational potential.

Cheers
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction (with Dewick Street Shed)

Postby Ian J. » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:00 pm

Yep it's got the High Level chassis. I need to narrow the gauge on the front wheels of it though as it's having a bit of trouble through the crossings and switch blades. At the moment there's no side-to-side movement at all, but there needs to be at least half mil, if not nearly a mm of side-to-side slide.

I'm doing the platforms at the moment, once I have the plasticard for the surfaces cut and then painted I'll update the thread. After that I've got a major rewiring job to do to put in the DCC bus system, and then I have to replace all the point motors. I used Fulgurex originally, but I was never really that happy with them so they need to come out and be replaced with Tortoises.
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Sayersbridge Junction - Platform Progress

Postby Ian J. » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:19 pm

Platform Progress:

Here are the platform surface sections, newly primed:
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Here are the platform edges in place (glued down with a hot glue gun, one of those tools that I'd never be without now):
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Note that there is planned to be an additional board (maybe two) beyond the platforms in the distance, which will have extensions to the platforms on as well as the station buildings and some townscape.. The platforms are numbered from right to left, 1 & 2 (through main); 3 (branch/secondary bay); 4 (ex goods) with an unloading edge on the other side of 4 (where the white van is).

The Pug in place on 'Platform 4' (ex goods platform):
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P1020137.JPG
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An overall view from platform height:
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The platform edge colour is too dark at the moment. I didn't realise the acrylic paint tends to dry somewhat darker than it's wet state, so I need to make up a somewhat light concrete colour and repaint the edges. Once that's done and dried then I'll find my modelling masking tape and do the white edge.
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Platform Progress

Postby Ian J. » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:23 pm

A couple more shots, this time of some of the stone effect spray paint covered platform surface sections (still drying):
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A close up, showing it's black & white speckles, not grey:
P1020142.JPG
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I don't know how this product works, but I suspect that this effect is achieved by having two types of paint, one for the white, one for the black, that simply don't mix properly. When the can is shaken they break up into smaller drops, but the white and black don't actually mix. Therefore when it comes out of the nozzle it is already separate and stays so when on the painted surface. The paint is quite thick, not a paste but not far off it. I think the drying is more like that of 'setting' rather than drying, IMHO.

Tomorrow, once the paint has 'set', I'll lightly sand it to remove the high bumps, then paint with light grey acrylic.
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Platform Progress

Postby Ian J. » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:14 am

Here are the sanded and painted platform surfaces, in place:
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P1020156.JPG
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It's probably a bit rougher than tarmac should be, however the overscale roughness does appeal to my eye and once it has the detail of platform furniture and people on it, and some weathering, I hope that it will look the biz.

Next up is the repainting of the concrete edge slabs to a lighter shade.
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby Ian J. » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:30 pm

I'm now on the path of working out sections and signalling for Sayersbridge. I have no real idea where and what the signals should be, however, these are my best guesses:

Sayersbridge Junction Signalling Diagram.gif
Sayersbridge Junction Signalling Diagram.gif (10.4 KiB) Viewed 2571 times

Note that 'Track Circuit Sections' are also 'Model Circuit Sections', in that for occupancy purposes when running the model both of these would be detection sections.
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby Ian J. » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:14 pm

Oh, and if anyone has any constructive suggestions on corrections to the signalling / sectioning that I've drawn up, I'd be more than grateful to hear them :)
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby beast66606 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:30 pm

Ian,

I'm afraid your signalling on the "junction" part is mostly incorrect, the Dewick Street bit has the signal to the left back to front (copy/paste !) and some missing.

I can help or do you want to try again ?
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby phil-b259 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:13 pm

I have had a look at your plans and come up with the following. It is based on real railway siognalling rules as applied to your track plan. Consiquently it is unlikley you will be able to model the signals at the extrematies. You must however ignore the impulse to include everything by squashing it all up as the end result would be toptally unrealistic.
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Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v1.GIF
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v1.GIF (21.67 KiB) Viewed 2352 times
Last edited by phil-b259 on Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby Ian J. » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:15 pm

beast66606 wrote:Ian,

I'm afraid your signalling on the "junction" part is mostly incorrect, the Dewick Street bit has the signal to the left back to front (copy/paste !) and some missing.

I can help or do you want to try again ?


I need all the help I can get, so feel free to edit the pic. If you notate it what I can then do is make the alterations on the original bitmap.
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby Ian J. » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:16 pm

phil-b259 wrote:I have had a look at your plans and come up wityh the following.


Eeek, I just got lost... :shock: and I thought it was going to be fairly simple... :roll:
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby Ian J. » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:21 pm

OK, I just noticed something about the plans that aren't obvious. The straight line at the right side of the station section (right hand fork of the junction) connects with the bottom left line of the shed. The line immediately above that one is a siding (see adjusted version of original plan below which has siding end bars):

Sayersbridge Junction Signalling Diagram v1.1.gif
Sayersbridge Junction Signalling Diagram v1.1.gif (10.51 KiB) Viewed 2386 times
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby phil-b259 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:58 pm

Like this you mean. What happerns with the other spurs do they join up as well?
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Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v3.GIF
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby phil-b259 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:17 pm

My plan modified to connect the two ends as above
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v5.GIF
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v5.GIF (23.05 KiB) Viewed 2323 times

then a second verson which compresses the signaling between the two stations to a minimum
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Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v7.GIF
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby Ian J. » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:00 pm

Whoa. I'll need to absorb all of this, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, but many thanks Phil, it'll help me get things sorted.

The two sections butt up against each other, with non-scenic curves at either end, with a fiddle yard on the other long side. I can't have such a long image on RMweb due to the width restrictions, so I put the Dewick Street Shed section underneath the Sayersbridge Junction Station section. The basic track plan for the scenic side is here in the original layout planning thread, albeit rotated to be tall rather than wide.
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby beast66606 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:33 pm

Ian,

do you really need all the platforms to be bi-directional ? - this would be very rare on the prototype.
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby Ian J. » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:38 pm

beast66606 wrote:Ian,

do you really need all the platforms to be bi-directional ? - this would be very rare on the prototype.


Platform 2 (P2) would be very unlikely to be bi-directional, but P1 could very well be. The platforms in the Shed are really supposed to be workers platforms, but as the loop needs to be able to work for a train in either direction going to either side, then effectively the lines there need to be bi-directional but i can imagine that opposite side working (train from right going to shed side platform face or train from left going to non-shed side platform face) would not be a common practice and therefore might be possible to cover with ground signals? Or even with men with flags...
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby Ian J. » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:53 pm

Thinking a bit further, I feel that the section between the station and the junction would, in real life, probably be much longer. The model is by necessity compressing that distance (though it's possible I could add additional boards to length it). I think this would mean that having two signals per platform at the junction end to cover the junction fork would be overkill as one double signal at the junction itself would cover which way the junction is set?
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby phil-b259 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:00 am

Ian J. wrote:Whoa. I'll need to absorb all of this, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, but many thanks Phil, it'll help me get things sorted.


That’s the problem with railway signalling, it’s a complex subject but just scratching the surface tends to lead to mistakes in the placement of signals. To be sure of getting their placement right you really have to go back to basics as it were. Generally I would recommend that anyone wondering about signal placement on their model should forget it’s a model and draw out a track plan of the entire area including the adjacent sections of line, which due to space reasons, will never actually physically appear. Next consider the maximum length of trains you wish to run as in many cases trains could be much longer than the platforms at intermediate stations, and set yourself an imaginary line speed. In most cases all this will result in the outermost signals including the distant, outer home and advanced starting signals to be too far away from the station area and hence to far away to be included on the model.

Ian J. wrote:The two sections butt up against each other, with non-scenic curves at either end, with a fiddle yard on the other long side. I can't have such a long image on RMweb due to the width restrictions, so I put the Dewick Street Shed section underneath the Sayersbridge Junction Station section. The basic track plan for the scenic side is here in the original layout planning thread, albeit rotated to be tall rather than wide.


Ahh now I see. Not that it changes much on the signalling plan for Sayersbridge Junction Station, the Dewick Street Shed section however could benefit from some further modifications depending on the prefered method of opperation.

In option A, only one of the two lines past the platform can be used by passenger trains, and this is signaled for bi-directional running using main signals. Goods trains or light engine moves can use the other side of the platform, again in either direction although they obviously can use the passenger line if required.
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v9a.GIF
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v9a.GIF (10.48 KiB) Viewed 2180 times

In option B, Each line is signaled in a uni-directional manor for passenger trains and consiquently they can pass each other at this location, something not possable in option A. Goods and light engine moves can use either line in either direction.
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v9b.GIF
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v9b.GIF (10.02 KiB) Viewed 2177 times


Ian J. wrote:Thinking a bit further, I feel that the section between the station and the junction would, in real life, probably be much longer.


Personally I would leave this section alone as it is possible to simplify the signalling arrangements. Providing such a short signal section simply to minimise the number of arms is unrealistic. Moreover it is good practice to ensure that a particular signal section is long enough to totally acomadate over 60% of trains. It is however possible to amend the signalling diagram to minimise the amount of arms required. Firstly take the signal at the ends of platforms 2 & 3. This could be split into two separate signals both with two arms (e.g. Hornby’s Junction signal), one for each branch with one branch being designated as the main route (and use the higher arm). Secondly the signals coming off the branch can also be replaced with the simpler Hornby bracket signal provided we imagine that the following rule is applied. When the route is set into the terminal platforms, the lower of the two arms comes off. When the route is set into platform 2 the taller arms comes off. We also assume that there is no route for passenger trains into Platform 1 from either branch, however it is still possable for a train to arive into platform 1 from the double track on the left and reverse using the crossover to regain the correct line.

With these adjustments and taking into account the ‘unmodeled’ sections of line the diagram now looks like this.
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v9.GIF
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v9.GIF (23.01 KiB) Viewed 2175 times

Now we can simplify this further by removing the unmodeled areas. Note that to the untrained eye, it looks as though we are missing some signals when in reality they are off stage. To make them visible would be contrary to signalling rules and stretch the bounds of creadability.
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v11.GIF
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v11.GIF (12.67 KiB) Viewed 2177 times

OK in model railways we have to make compromises over distances; however it is always important to remember you can only compress things so far, especially where signalling is concerned
Last edited by phil-b259 on Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:48 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby 18B » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:18 am

Hi

would a representation of a theatre indicater for train off the branch to either the bay platforms or sidings not be a useful addition?
I now have my own outdoor model railway room WOW!!!!
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby phil-b259 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:12 am

Looking at your layout plan again, I have only just realised realise that both Sayersbridge Junction Station and Dewick Street Shed all form part of the same senic section :oops: . Based on this it would appear that there is insufficiant room to fit much more than a large loco between the branch junction and the points leeding to the shed. With this in mind I have revisited the signalling plans and come up with the following. Note that the signal giving passenger trains admitamnce to Sayersbridge Junction Station is back behind the points of Dewick Street Shed access. Shunting moves can utalise the short sections between the points but passenger trains require a clear run into the platforms at Sayersbridge Junction Station before they can leave Dewick Street. Also moves between Sayersbridge Junction and Dewick Street Shed are now done using the shunt signals added to the platform ends due to the lack of main running signals between the two, itself a product of the short track section between the junction and the shed
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Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v22.GIF
Sayersbridge%20Junction%20Signalling%20Diagram v22.GIF (21.38 KiB) Viewed 2158 times
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby Ian J. » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:35 am

Phil, many thanks once again, you've put a fair bit of thought and effort into the arrangements and it's much appreciated. I think the last plan (v22) seems to be about right. Something I recently decided on that's on the signal plan but not the actual plan is the turnout at the end of the loop on the shed section (the area coloured amber on your plan). I only recently felt it should become single track again, whereas the original plan still left it open for a continuation of double track.

I'm beginning to make sense of this now so if I have to make any additional modifications to the boards (adding additional ones mainly) then I should be able to make alterations, hopefully. I think I need to get myself a decent book on signalling practice though... :oops:
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Re: Sayersbridge Junction - Signalling and Sections

Postby The Stationmaster » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:57 am

You could simplify the signalling at the station by only having a single arm for the platform starters and a splitting signal at the junction - indeed some Railways would have done it that way in any case as it simplified the signalling and locking, especially in the days of mechanical facing point locking bars.
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