Camberhurst (P4) - 10800's proposed home layout

Camberhurst (P4) - 10800's proposed home layout

Postby 10800 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:31 pm

I've been toying for a while with designs for a solo project layout that I could fit in at home (and also exhibit) and that would meet most of my requirements and interests of a BR Southern layout in the 1950s. In other words the stock for Eridge (RMWeb passim) could be used on here, possibly the signalbox and goods shed as well, plus a bit more. So here it is in its present form, done with Templot but hand-annotated and coloured for your delectation.

home layout.jpg
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Basically it's the end of a double track branch somewhere in Kent/Sussex, not too big a place because of the short-ish platforms, but big enough to justify double track because of its intensity of service. There could be a junction just out of the station in the manner of Exmouth or a mini-Brighton. It will include third rail electrification (red tracks), and I may even put tramway OHLE in the yard (track where coloured blue) for shunting with class 70s and 71s.

Passenger trains would include steam-hauled conventional and push-pull, and EMUs of course. There would be a lot of NPCS traffic - parcels, pigeon specials etc - and short pickup goods. Longer goods trains could also arrive via the goods loop/headshunt (which rejoins the main line off-scene) so that shunting can be done clear of the running lines.

What you see on the plan is about 9ft long, and will split into two for transport, conveniently missing the turnouts (all but two of which will be on one board). There will be a separate fiddleyard of about 5-6ft, probably using a traverser. The solid boards will be just over 2ft wide but I may have plug-in lightweight scenic pieces to broaden it out.

Operation will be DCC, and the layout could be run in early 50s mode with ex-LBSCR steam and 1st generation EMUs, or early 60s mode with green coaches, 24s, 33s and 73/0s, and 4-CEPs. If I choose to run 66s and 92s in the privacy of my own home that is entirely a matter for me.

I believe (and Beast will correct me if I'm wrong please) that the only 'big' signals I need are the three platform starters, which because of the cramped conditions will be on a single 3-doll bracket. Inner homes and advance starters are off-scene. There will be a lot of ground signals though, I estimate seven, and if I have missed any or put too many in please let me know. One question I have is this: when a loco releases itself after arrival to run round, does it need to be cleared by the platform starter assuming it is not going beyond the advance starter, or can that all be done by ground/disc signals? Would it then need another disc signal on the main bracket? Also, how big does the six-foot have to be if there is a ground signal in it?

The three turnouts marked with an asterisk I assume would be worked by adjacent levers, not from the box.

Any comments would be welcome.
Last edited by 10800 on Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:17 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Postby Yorkshire Pullman » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:39 pm

Neat plan, one suggestion though. The connection from the carriage sidings to the down main involves a facing point for all arriving passenger trains. If you reverse the connection it will give a trailing point on the down main and mean that all movements to/from the sidings would be via a headshunt running parallel to the down main.
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Postby sunshine coast » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:45 pm

Hi Rod ,

nice plan ,so in a fit of rationalisation,Hailsham has had the connection to Polegate doubled and electrified but the non profitable line to on to Heathfield has been lifted ..... :shock: :?


Maybe :roll: :roll:

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Postby 10800 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:49 pm

Yorkshire Pullman wrote:The connection from the carriage sidings to the down main involves a facing point for all arriving passenger trains. If you reverse the connection it will give a trailing point on the down main and mean that all movements to/from the sidings would be via a headshunt running parallel to the down main.


Good point - I'll get onto it and shall return momentarily ...
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Postby 10800 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:51 pm

sunshine coast wrote:so in a fit of rationalisation,Hailsham has had the connection to Polegate doubled and electrified but the non profitable line to on to Heathfield has been lifted ..... :shock: :?


Hi Trevor, I've just looked in the plans in the Cuckoo line book, and there are distinct similarities ...
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Postby The Fatadder » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:59 pm

looks a quite intresting concept, amazed that all fits in 9ft by 2ft!
looking forward to seeing it :)
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Postby sunshine coast » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:10 pm

Would certainly give some very interesting workings and I think that 70's or 71's did a freight working to Polegate at one time ???

Plenty of passenger connections as well ,peak times could be interesting !!

Also IMO it gives a plausible reason for the station,if you are going to invent something then go the whole hog :shock: :shock:

Shall follow this with interest..ps what digital system are you going to use (nudge wink...)

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Postby 10800 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:30 pm

Yorkshire Pullman wrote:If you reverse the connection it will give a trailing point on the down main and mean that all movements to/from the sidings would be via a headshunt running parallel to the down main.


OK, here it is (roughly). I didn't want to lose my nice C10 crossover so the new headshunt access (B8s) takes it slightly off-scene. I will have to double check if I can expand a bit or alternatively I could squeeze everything else to the right a bit provided I don't lose significant platform capacity. Alignments of the four tracks at the exit may be varied a little depending on what I use for boundary - probably an arched bridge in which case they will go in two pairs.

Do I need a ground signal to exit the carriage sidings across the trailing point onto the headshunt?.

home layout revised.JPG
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Last edited by 10800 on Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby beast66606 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:37 pm

and Beast will correct me if I'm wrong please


Moi :?: - as if :roll:

Better to have a balanced two doll on the platform near to the word etc. and a single poster on the toilet :P

does it need to be cleared by the platform starter


Yes :shock: - funny how many layouts (and not getting at you Rod) think that signals can be ignored for shunting :roll:

I would make the release road a ground frame and remove the disks reading over it - adds a nice cameo possibility.

Note sure what the top disk of the two on the mainlines to the left is for ?? - you would have a main signal protecting the (arrival) connections so this is probably unnecessary.

your hand points (*) are ok.

These are my initial thoughts - once you finalise I will draw something a bit better.

Edit - Finalise :evil: :wink:
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Postby Graham_Muz » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:40 pm

10800 wrote:Do I need a ground signal to exit the carriage sidings across the trailing point onto the headshunt?.


Nice looking plan and plenty of operational interest. I look forward to the progression of this one too.

As for the ground signal I would have said yes and I think it would have been a yellow one which would allow movements between the head shunt and the sidings to pass without it needing to pulled off, but it would protect movements to the main line.
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Postby 10800 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:04 pm

beast66606 wrote:Better to have a balanced two doll on the platform near to the word etc. and a single poster on the toilet :P


OK, and the shunt arms provide for the crossover which is what I had that ground signal for that you tippexed out, and presumably would also be used for when the previously arrived train backed out a bit to enable loco release?

I would make the release road a ground frame and remove the disks reading over it - adds a nice cameo possibility.


And that could/would be up on the platform beyond the buffer stops, not in the six foot?

Now I understand how yellow arm ground signals work!

Thanks as always Dave (and Graham) - I'll come back with a revised version over the weekend, and may well look intently at Charlotte Road if I get to Taunton!
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Postby 10800 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:24 pm

sunshine coast wrote:Shall follow this with interest..ps what digital system are you going to use (nudge wink...)

Regards Trevor....


Dunno yet Trev - last time I looked into DCC options with any seriousness I was drawn to Digitrax, but the market seems to change very quickly and a fresh review will probably be required!
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Postby beast66606 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:47 pm

OK, and the shunt arms provide for the crossover which is what I had that ground signal for that you tippexed out, and presumably would also be used for when the previously arrived train backed out a bit to enable loco release?


Signals only need to be cleared if they are passed (or occasionally not cleared :shock: )

The shunts allow the train to propel back to stand in rear of the home signal (at the moment you have half the layout missing so I am assuming stuff here - when you finalise its best to draw the whole "real" layout and then I can signal that, then you model what you like :)

Ground frame would most likely be in the 6' between the two roads, but you might want to look for Southern practice and choose one - my knowledge is of the more decent LNWR stuff :P

Yellow arms (not distants !) can be passed at danger for routes that the signal does not control usually a headshunt type arrangement

If you make Taunton you are welcome to come and play with my Digitrax :shock:
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Postby Captain Kernow » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:39 pm

The Fatadder wrote:looks a quite intresting concept, amazed that all fits in 9ft by 2ft!

So am I!
But the Templot never lies.....
Any thoughts on the type of track, Rod?
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Postby 10800 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:27 pm

Captain Kernow wrote:
The Fatadder wrote:looks a quite intresting concept, amazed that all fits in 9ft by 2ft!

So am I!
But the Templot never lies.....
Any thoughts on the type of track, Rod?
Will you use N/S in deference to your proximity to the Sea?


You're getting me worried now! I'll print it out full size to bring to the next DRAG meeting (hopefully I'll have my company :wink: A3 printer shortly so that will cut down on the number of pieces!).

I've got steel rail at home which seems to survive and so will probably stick with that. Therefore, given that this isn't going to happen overnight and may well be the only significant domestic layout I build, I'm minded to use Exactoscale throughout, including their point kits. All the turnouts are C10 or B8, and whilst very few are 'straight' the others are not curved beyond the bounds of a bit of tweaking.

Once the basic trackplan is done, next step will be to design in the third rail layout, and point rodding/signal cable runs before I actually start building boards or laying anything. May also be a quarter scale card mockup to see what it actually looks like.
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Postby dseagull » Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:53 pm

sunshine coast wrote:Would certainly give some very interesting workings and I think that 70's or 71's did a freight working to Polegate at one time ???

Plenty of passenger connections as well ,peak times could be interesting !!

Also IMO it gives a plausible reason for the station,if you are going to invent something then go the whole hog :shock: :shock:

Shall follow this with interest..ps what digital system are you going to use (nudge wink...)

Regards Trevor....


You could also have big locos on 1 or 2 coach trains... (There's a couple of pictures in the AC Elliott book of MN's on one/two coaches from Eastbourne to Hailsham as a filling in turn)

As with Trev, I'll follow this one with interest!
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Postby G.M.R. » Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:47 pm

beast66606 wrote:Ground frame would most likely be in the 6' between the two roads, but you might want to look for Southern practice and choose one - my knowledge is of the more decent LNWR stuff :P


A useful piece of info for many a layout, I am sure, and certainly is good input for my challenge layout. If I may ask a further question without hijacking 10800's thread too much, and that arose while I was looking at the trackwork at the Swanage terminal on Friday. The crossover to release the loco into the loop operates with a 3 lever movement, but the levers are in the signalbox at the other end of the station. The question I wondered, after I had left Swanage, was how did the signalman know that the driver of the loco had pulled ahead and cleared the point, before he threw the point over? There did not appear to be any hand signals from anyone.
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Postby shortliner » Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:52 pm

geoff - track circuit indication in the box?
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Postby G.M.R. » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:06 pm

Thanks - I had not realised track circuit indication would be used in that situation.
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Postby 10800 » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:20 pm

A bit more tinkering, which has made the visible layout a bit longer at around 11 ft, and made overall from three boards (separated by the vertical blue lines). The fiddle yard board (a bit of which will be in the visible section) and the main (middle) board will be 5ft 6in each in length, whilst the platform board will be about 4ft 6in.

I may not be able to assemble all three boards at once at home now (except outside) but I can have two up to work on and take it to DRAG for operating. Main thing is it will all go in my car.

The additional length comes from my not wanting to have tighter points or shorten the platforms. I have also slewed the exit tracks slightly to accommodate a 2-arch overbridge as a scenic break.

home layout revised 2.JPG
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This is mainly for Beast, and is a diagrammatic representation showing the trackwork in the visible station area (right of crossover 4-5) and also what is assumed to be immediately off-scene. This includes the crossover 4-5 which allows for arriving trains to get into Platform 3, and further out access to and exit from the goods loop/headshunt (so departing goods trains could leave from the loop). Station limits should be a bit beyond this to allow for shunting unless there is a shunt ahead arm on the advance starter to allow for this.

home signal layout.jpg
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As before, the asterisked points are worked locally by ground frame or individual levers. There will be a yellow arm ground signal protecting 11-10 and 13-12, and a ground disc to the left of 3 which would control movement both across 3-2 and 10-11 into the goods yard.

The platform starters will also have associated shunt/disc signals for reversing and runround purposes, and it is in this area that I am still searching for definitive details. AFAIK the Southern tended to use discs mounted on the starter brackets for this sort of thing, like this:

http://www.semg.org.uk/proto/semaphore_04.html
(bottom photo)

But sometimes they used shunting arms like this: http://www.semg.org.uk/proto/semaphore_03.html
(top two images)

Now are these types interchangeable, or is reversing/shunting from platforms 1/2 conceptually different because it is wrong-direction travel on a running line? For crossing over 2-3, or entering the headshunt 12-13, would the shunt/disc signals on the platforms be used, or another disc between 1 and 2? If the former, presumably any loco/train wanting to make those moves would have to pass into the platforms beyond the platform starters first?
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Postby beast66606 » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:21 pm

The crossover to release the loco into the loop operates with a 3 lever movement, but the levers are in the signalbox at the other end of the station. The question I wondered, after I had left Swanage, was how did the signalman know that the driver of the loco had pulled ahead and cleared the point, before he threw the point over? There did not appear to be any hand signals from anyone.


If you mean a three lever ground frame released from the cabin then there is normally a plunger on the frame which causes a bell to ring in the box meaning "unlock frame" - a further plunge or two would mean "lock frame" - no track circuits required, the plunger being controlled by the shunter who can see the engine is clear - or not !

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Postby 10800 » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:22 pm

G.M.R. wrote:I was looking at the trackwork at the Swanage terminal on Friday. The crossover to release the loco into the loop operates with a 3 lever movement, but the levers are in the signalbox at the other end of the station. The question I wondered, after I had left Swanage, was how did the signalman know that the driver of the loco had pulled ahead and cleared the point, before he threw the point over? There did not appear to be any hand signals from anyone.


So is there also a ground disc controlling the movement in that case?
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Postby 10800 » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:56 pm

dseagull wrote:You could also have big locos on 1 or 2 coach trains... (There's a couple of pictures in the AC Elliott book of MN's on one/two coaches from Eastbourne to Hailsham as a filling in turn)


I take your point (was it MNs, or just WC/BBs on these turns? - the photo in Elliott's book is of Taw Valley), although I'm not getting too hung up on Hailsham, there are just some similarities. I have yet to work out whether this could be a 'might-have-been' in a real place, or something completely freelance in the general area. If a 'might-have-been', the most promising idea is to imagine that the proposed (and started) Ouse valley line actually got built, resulting in a somewhat different history in the Bluebell/Lavender/Cuckoo line territory.
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Postby PhilH » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:01 pm

G.M.R. wrote:
beast66606 wrote:Ground frame would most likely be in the 6' between the two roads, but you might want to look for Southern practice and choose one - my knowledge is of the more decent LNWR stuff :P


A useful piece of info for many a layout, I am sure, and certainly is good input for my challenge layout. If I may ask a further question without hijacking 10800's thread too much, and that arose while I was looking at the trackwork at the Swanage terminal on Friday. The crossover to release the loco into the loop operates with a 3 lever movement, but the levers are in the signalbox at the other end of the station. The question I wondered, after I had left Swanage, was how did the signalman know that the driver of the loco had pulled ahead and cleared the point, before he threw the point over? There did not appear to be any hand signals from anyone.


On the MHR, to run round at Alresford we have to clear the run round point. Either the guard then rings the box from a phone at the end of the platform, or we have to ring the box from a trackside phone.
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Postby dseagull » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:22 pm

10800 wrote:
dseagull wrote:You could also have big locos on 1 or 2 coach trains... (There's a couple of pictures in the AC Elliott book of MN's on one/two coaches from Eastbourne to Hailsham as a filling in turn)


I take your point (was it MNs, or just WC/BBs on these turns? - the photo in Elliott's book is of Taw Valley), although I'm not getting too hung up on Hailsham, there are just some similarities. I have yet to work out whether this could be a 'might-have-been' in a real place, or something completely freelance in the general area. If a 'might-have-been', the most promising idea is to imagine that the proposed (and started) Ouse valley line actually got built, resulting in a somewhat different history in the Bluebell/Lavender/Cuckoo line territory.


May not have been MN's, I didn't have the book to hand at the time - the purpose though was, as I mentioned, fill in turns. Certainly a good 'excuse' for running large, mainline locos on very short trains, wherever you end up basing the layout.
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