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Hand built track options?


Traintresta

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I have purchased two sets of the C&L Finescale point kits, the 'just the plastic bits' versions.  I think I need to get in touch with Phil at C&L as I couldn't see any slide chairs nor were there any instructions (which I was expecting) before I really get cracking, but tonight I set about making a point using a template printed from templot.  I must admit, I have never done this before and my immediate response to not seeing some of what I expected was to flee back to the idea of making trackwork using copper-clad construction, but I really would like to have a go at this type of construction so that I can take advantage of the look of bullhead trackwork.

 

This layout is really taking a long time to come together, I started the benchwork nearly 15 months ago and still have some bits to finish up before track can really go down, but I was hoping that making a point would spur me on to do that.  I have some pretty specific ideas about things I want to do with this layout after several false starts on other layout projects so I feel pretty frustrated at present, because bullhead track was one of my 'must-haves'.  Had Peco introduced a comprehensive range of bullhead points (specifically curves) and were they not priced so highly, I might have just bought what I wanted from them, but my budget and the lack of a complete bullhead range of points, and my desire to model OO-Sf lead me to point construction.

 

Further complicating things, I need to travel into nearby Sheffield tomorrow so the temptation to pop by and by some copper clad sleepers from Marcway is right at the forefront of my mind but I am trying to remain patient, not something I consider myself good at being.

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My advice, if you've not handbuilt several turnouts, is to start with copperclad construction as this will get you into a method that suits you. It's also easier to adjust, if you get things a bit out. You can use these in the fiddleyard.

 

I start by constructing the V, then add the straighter of the two stock rails, then the curved stock rail, don't forget the SET  in the curved rail for the switch, marked on the Templot template. I then add the switch/closure rails. Finally, I add the check rails, some add these before fitting the stock rails, using the checkspan gauge.

 

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19 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

My advice, if you've not handbuilt several turnouts, is to start with copperclad construction as this will get you into a method that suits you. It's also easier to adjust, if you get things a bit out. You can use these in the fiddleyard.

 

I start by constructing the V, then add the straighter of the two stock rails, then the curved stock rail, don't forget the SET  in the curved rail for the switch, marked on the Templot template. I then add the switch/closure rails. Finally, I add the check rails, some add these before fitting the stock rails, using the checkspan gauge.

 


I have built plenty of points using copper clad construction, hence I’m tempted to go back to that as I know how to do it well. 
 

9 minutes ago, Izzy said:

If you look through the hand built track & Templot section here you will I think find plenty of help with regard to basic bullhead construction using chairs. @hayfield has just added a thread which is probably all you need.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/168596-easy-and-cheap-built-turnout-point/

 

I did do a search and found very little bit didn’t think to do the obvious and check that section of the forum. Thanks for the nudge. 

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If you look at my workbench there are plenty of writeups on Track building, also the Track building and Templot section is a newer category than the  , signalling and infrastructure which has earlier topics

 

If you bought the turnout kits rather than chairs they should have slide chairs in them, instructions are included if requested 

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50 minutes ago, David Bigcheeseplant said:

Have you tried Michael Clarks Masokits system where the chairs are formed from a etch and use copperclad sleepers.

 

David

I had seen those when I researched point kits but thought using plastic parts might be easier. Despite my experience of laying copper clad track, I tend to work in plastic for almost everything else so I thought I’d go that route with track work. 
 

it’s early days yet and I’m still learning so I might explore the options. 

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I have built track with copperclad, with copper + etched chairs, and with plastic chairs in 2mm, 4mm and 7mm.

 

The best solution IMO is copperclad with etched chairs, but I have only seen and tried this in 2mm and it is by far the most fiddly.

 

I think there is a false sense of security with plastic components since they are familiar materials to a scale modeller and wagon-kit-basher. Generally one can de-solder and shove around rail and etched chairs on PCB fairly easily if they are out of gauge or alignment but the same can't be said of plastic.

 

The 2mm Association have a book 'track: what it is and how to model it' which is very useful for any gauge and quite exhaustive, but @hayfield has put together a fair few series of photo essays on building them.

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If you use ply sleepers and timbers, you can use a scalpel to lift the plastic chairs and reposition them. The chairs bond very well to the ply, using Butanone or Plastic Weld.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Traintresta said:

I had seen those when I researched point kits but thought using plastic parts might be easier. Despite my experience of laying copper clad track, I tend to work in plastic for almost everything else so I thought I’d go that route with track work. 
 

it’s early days yet and I’m still learning so I might explore the options. 

 

Using plastic is not easier, but very much easier. The name Masokits gives you a clue. Very cleaver but so is Rubrics cube !!!!

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4 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

I have built track with copperclad, with copper + etched chairs, and with plastic chairs in 2mm, 4mm and 7mm.

 

The best solution IMO is copperclad with etched chairs, but I have only seen and tried this in 2mm and it is by far the most fiddly.

 

I think there is a false sense of security with plastic components since they are familiar materials to a scale modeller and wagon-kit-basher. Generally one can de-solder and shove around rail and etched chairs on PCB fairly easily if they are out of gauge or alignment but the same can't be said of plastic.

 

The 2mm Association have a book 'track: what it is and how to model it' which is very useful for any gauge and quite exhaustive, but @hayfield has put together a fair few series of photo essays on building them.

 

False sense of security !! May be in 2mm scale. Personally I think less so in 4 & 7 mm scale. I had more issues with solder joints when making a 2 bolt etched chair turnout than anything else I have built, and I can solder !!! Plus they do not look 3D in 4mm scale

 

Plastic welds itself to plastic. If a plastic chair is in the wrong place, simply cut it out and replace, better still ensure its placed correctly first time. You could always use brass chairs sparingly, soldered to copperclad timbers if worried. Unlike soldered construction, the idea is to place the chairs correctly first time without the need to fettle afterwards, or build crossings as sub assemblies, (this allows people to fettle) then fit them to the turnout/crossing

 

I think the issues come from a lack of information/knowledge. Plastic chaired track is designed to be laid with a prototypical inwards leaning cant, therefore the rail head has to rotate in the gauge. Gauges must neither be too tight or deep, 

 

I assume you are talking about gauge issues when you mention false sense of security. If you use the wrong gauges then gauge narrowing will be an issue in EM & P4 gauges (00 is far more forgiving and in a lot of cases gauge narrowing will improve running (00SF) ). Basic tight fit gauges are for soldered construction, use those specially produced for chaired track, which allows the head of the rail to sit at the correct angle. I have had to adapt some of my 3 point gauges as they were not designed for plastic chair construction, they held the rail upright, once removed the chairs relaxed back into shape resulting in gauge narrowing. I think sometimes some producers forget to educate their customers properly

 

Its exactly the same if you want to stick the plastic chairs to ply timbers, use Butanone/MEK other solvents will not bond as well

 

With the exception of soldering the Vee I have successfully used plastic chairs to hold the rails in both common and obtuse crossings in place, by using the correct gauges and either the correct or most suitable chairs  

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I had another look at the C&L website and it appears I forgot to ask for the slide chairs to be added into my order.  I also forgot to obtain some check chairs, which I was going to do from the EMGS, but by the time I add it all up and think of the time it will take, I’m not so sure I want to continue. 

 

I’m very quickly getting the feeling that track is less of a special interest to me than I thought and the idea of copper clad construction really does appeal so much more than it did before.
 

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If you belong to either the EMGS or the S4 society, you can get the Exactoscale turnout chairs all on one sprue and enough for several turnouts all in one pack. Do remember that the EM gauge chairs have a 1mm flangeway gap and the S4 have 0.86mm gap.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

If you belong to either the EMGS or the S4 society, you can get the Exactoscale turnout chairs all on one sprue and enough for several turnouts all in one pack. Do remember that the EM gauge chairs have a 1mm flangeway gap and the S4 have 0.86mm gap.

 

 

I’m working to OO-SF so EM chairs wouldn’t be a problem.  I feel like I’m giving in too quick but I know within copper clad I can get up and running reliably and quickly. 

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3 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

If you belong to either the EMGS or the S4 society, you can get the Exactoscale turnout chairs all on one sprue and enough for several turnouts all in one pack. Do remember that the EM gauge chairs have a 1mm flangeway gap and the S4 have 0.86mm gap.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Traintresta said:

I’m working to OO-SF so EM chairs wouldn’t be a problem.  I feel like I’m giving in too quick but I know within copper clad I can get up and running reliably and quickly. 

 

I use the Exactoscale check chairs all the time, and have developed a workaround for use in EM & 00SF, it also works for standard 00

 

Its worth remembering these chairs are designed for P4 the 0.68 is for standard P4 and the 0.8 is for P4 widened.

 

The adaption is quite simple, on a 5 timber turnout I slide the two outer and one central chairs on to a check chair, I slide the two other central check chairs on to the stock rail

 

30.jpeg.7f2883fa05a5281db14ef5de143e838a.jpeg

 

This is a 4 timber check rail but shows the process, cut the outer chair half off. when you place the check chair in place, as both rails are not held in tension in the chair, the resulting gap is nigh on 1mm if using the 0.08 chair

31.jpeg.7030d813ba5b41f0de4eecd55772c3f3.jpeg

 

Now glue the check chair in place and its set at the correct distance using gauges

 

33.jpeg.6ff53f9330b0dee6223a686ee71bfaaf.jpeg

 

A cruel close up shows the results

 

Some of the special chairs can be used as is Common Crossing, special switch, slip and obtuse crossing chairs

 

Be careful with slide chairs, there is a P4 one and a 4mm larger one for EM & 00

 

29.jpeg.a0ae2149b8a7e81bede36b432830ea07.jpeg

 

This photo shows some of the additional switch chairs

 

 

C&L now sell revised 2 & 3 bolt chairs, each sprue has 10 x std chairs, 2 x joint chairs, 2 x L1 (bridge) chairs and 2 functional (H section) fishplates

 

 

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Thank you all for the advice. 
 

I’ve considered this a bit more and think it would be a waste to throw in the towel before really giving this a proper go. I think I’ll order some of the exactoscale chairs from the EMGS and persevere at least with this switch and see how I feel. 

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I have progressed my first effort, but I have to say I have not enjoyed the process at all!  I still need to put the switch rails and check rails for the frog but so far I have found this hard going and have found myself reaching for the copper clad....

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16 hours ago, hayfield said:

What Part(s) are you having difficulty with?

I'm not fining it particularly difficult, I just haven't enjoyed it.  I have to admit its starting to look really nice but I'm struggling to get motivated to go back to it.  I think I have realised that I am much less about detail and more about the ability to construct something functional.

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That's a shame as the only thing that comes close to looking like a prototypical turnout are Wayne's very easy to build kits "British Finescale" or the EMGS ready built turnouts but they are in EM gauge

 

I must admit there are some disciplines within the hobby I don't enjoy, but they its the wide amount to variety of things that make up a layout which keeps our interest 

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On 09/01/2022 at 11:47, hayfield said:

That's a shame as the only thing that comes close to looking like a prototypical turnout are Wayne's very easy to build kits "British Finescale" or the EMGS ready built turnouts but they are in EM gauge

 

I must admit there are some disciplines within the hobby I don't enjoy, but they its the wide amount to variety of things that make up a layout which keeps our interest 

I quite agree but I think this is one I may struggle with.  I might move on and come back to it at a later date.

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