lucky for you that there is a signalling diagram of Camerton - have a look at your thread in the permanent way forum for my reply.

rannorgana

I have been collecting images and info about Camerton for more years than I remember . You are right about the lack of pictures of Old Pit and in fact New Pit is not that well documented either.

Also the original signal box on the Hallatrow side of the station bridge does not seem to have been photographed although it can just be seen through the bridge in one of the station pictures. I have also never seen a picture of the canal bridge by Old Pit or the tramway which connected Old and New Pits. Still you never know what may turn up one day.

rannorgana - many thanks, since reading your reply I've already tracked down and ordered a copy of that book.

Jerry - I've been a silent admirer of Highbury for some time and am now looking forward to Tucking Mill. If I manage to represent north Somerset as well as you have, I'll be very happy.

Wheeltapper - the only photo of any part of the canal bridge behind Old Pit that I've seen is one of Camerton House, the pit offices, looking across the bridge and showing only part of the parapet. This photo is at centre left of the right hand poster on the notice board in my first photo above. I've not seen it elsewhere. There is also one of New Pit taken from the tramway and showing part of the bridge at the top right of the same poster. A drawing based on this is at the centre of the other poster. I have a good photo of this drawing, but my others of these posters are all blurred images from an old phone camera. There are several photos of New Pit from the same direction at different dates, one of which does show the bridge and canal. Unfortunately, I cannot put my finger on it.

Nick

I have a very detailed map of the Old and New Pits from 1883 showing the locations of all the buildings and what they were , together with the track layout of the 2ft 4 inch gauge tramways and the standard gauge line and sidings.

There were two bridges over the canal at Old Pit , one for the public road and the other for the tramway where it crossed the canal from the screens on the south side to join what later became the track to New Pit in about 1910 .The canal narrows right down at the point where the tramway crosses which leads me to speculate it may have been a swing bridge for the tramway.A seperate section of tramway came out the south side of the screens and ran along the top of the batch.

The pit buildings at Old Pit were well spread out as still on the south bank of the canal but on the opposite side of the public road were the Coke House and Coke Ovens , across the canal on the north bank the smithy and stables were behind the cottages but joined to them and there is a group of three buildings fronting the station incline but they are not marked as to use.The pithead is about where the miners statue stands. (I think that statue used to be outside the pub - the Miners Arms ?) and I am glad to see that area has been tidied up a bit as when I last visited about 15 years ago the statue had disapeared under bushes and vegetation.

I was very fortunate to visit Camerton Station several times in the 1950's when all the track was still in situ as it was untouched by demolition contractors for 7 or 8 years after closure . Of course I never took a camera with me as for some unfathomable reason we used to think the railways would always be there and there was no reason to record them for posterity . Got that wrong didnt we. ?

The reason that the canal course is not clear around New Pit is that in 1902 New Pit started to use the canal bed as a convenient area for dirt tipping rather than increase the height of the batch and distance from the pithead.

Yes, the statue is the one that used to be by the pub. What is the origin of your 1883 map? It sounds like it has much the same detail as the map that went with the 1876 Act that is reproduced in the Mike Vincent book.

The station incline appears to be the route of the old road before it was diverted. The buildings you mention here are one of those features that prove quite elusive in photos. There is one taken when the 1907 extension work was underway where the station canopy obscures these buildings but it clearly shows a square chimney adjacent to the incline. Most others showing any part of these buildings shows them at least partly demolished and I've not seen any others showing this chimney. The chimney is not in a 1910 shot of (possibly the first) autotrain from Limpley Stoke, although this does show the tops of other buildings and winding gear.

Nick

My map version showing Old Pit came from "The History of the Somerset Coalfield" by Warrington & Down . It was originally published by David & Charles but has long been out of print. I did hear however( but have not checked it out )that Radstock Museum were going to have it reprinted .

Both the Museum and the Somerset Coal Canal Society may be worth asking if they have information about Old Pit.

How did I forget about that one? Perhaps because I've been concentrating on 1907 onwards. Yes, I have a copy of the Museum's reprint of the coalfield book, so thanks for reminding me about it. Interestingly, the 1883 map shows some differences from that of 1876. I'd wondered what you meant about three buildings on the station incline as the earlier map only shows only the largest building at the west of the group.

I've talked with people at the museum and been through the canal soc's web pages, but may need to follow those up.

John Cornwell's book" Collieries of Somerset & Bristol " has not got anything on Old Pit but does have some very interesting close up shots of the Wooden Headstock being changed for a Steel one in 1938 at New Pit. There is a wealth of constructional detail in the pictures for the Headstocks which will be of use to anyone doing a colliery model . There is one picture of the surface buildings at New Pit from an angle I have not seen elsewhere which is also usefull.

SIAS Survey No 11 (Somerset Industrial Archaeological Society) - The Somerset Coalfield by Shane Gould has a photo of the Old Pit Powder House.

The Frome to Bristol Middleton Press Book has one photo of the station with an auto trailer stood at the platform and you can see two sets of Headgear at Old Pit together with a building and large chimney. You can just see what looks like the wall of another building at the top of the station incline but its very indistinct.

I have noticed on several pictures there is a round brick structure behind the left hand end of the station building . In one picture it has quite a substantial wooden construction on top looking as though it could be a well , probably for the station although in one picture it looks to be too big for that purpose and made me wonder if it was something to do with the pit.

The track layout plan in the Middleton book is dated 1931.

From what I have seen of pictures of the canals bridges they were all of a similar design so I suspect the Camerton one would be the same type. There is a good picture of the Monkton Coombe Bridge on what was later to become the site of Monkton Coombe Level Crossing in Ken Clews book The Somersetshire Coal Canal and Railways.

Looking through the Clew book reminded me I have always wondered if any details of the Ashman Locomotive which was built by the Engineer at Clandown Colliery in 1826 and successfully trialed on the Radstock Tramway until the track proved to be inadequate for locomotive use have survived anywhere . The only other info I have seen is that it hauled 7 wagons and was later used as a winding engine after its railway use . Now that would make an interesting subject for a model if enough details of the engine could be found.

We do seem to have a very similar collection of books! The picture in Cornwell of New Pit is one that appears on that notice board at the site of Old Pit. One of the drawings on the posters is also, I think, based on it. Thanks for reminding me about that photo, I'd forgotten where it was.

The photo of the autotrain in the Middleton Press book is the 1910 one I mentioned earlier when I said that the chimney on a 1907 photo on one of the buildings on the incline had disappeared by 1910. As you say, the other chimney and headgear are still there. There seem to be few later pictures showing what remained after the tramway was lifted and Old Pit's shafts were only kept open for air and emergency access.

The round structure behind the station building is indeed a well, it is marked with a W on Ordnance Survey maps. That wooden thing on top certainly is large. One thing I haven't been able to work out is what the back wall of the station building might look like. Does it have any windows and doors? The area with the well is enclosed by a brick wall, almost as if it were a back yard for the building.

I agree about the similarity of design of the canal bridges. I don't have the Clews book, but I do have a small book by Roger Halse and Simon Castens called The Somersetshire Coal Canal, A Pictorial Journey, which contains many photos of the canal.

I wonder if there is any more information about that locomotive? I've yet to see anything more than brief mentions of its existence.

I have always assumed the back of the station building to be a blank wall but I have no reasons to substantiate that thought . From memory the drawing in Gerry Beales book doesnt show anything and try as I might although I can remember having a look around the back of the building when I visited the site fifty years ago I cannot remember what was there.

I guess the proximity of the steep bank to the building would deter anyone from taking a picture from there . In the absence of any other information and as the building was a standard type of design I think all you can do is look at other examples and make an educated guess using the windows in the front as a possible guide if you are going to put them in as its a fairly safe bet if fitted to the back they would be opposite the ones in the front wall.

Surprising if you study the pictures long enough what does come to light . I had often wondered why there was no livestock pens or loading facility at the station as it is in an agricultural area .It took a while to realise that the stack of hurdles which are leant against the station or incline wall in several photos were there for that purpose and would have been used to channel the livestock across the platform and the cattle wagon or whatever would not have to be shunted again if it was stopped opposite the entrance to the platform from the station approach when the train pulled in.

Incidentally do you intend to replicate the shunting movement with the wire rope ?

I have got a copy of the Simon Castens and Roger Halse book , surprising how much photographic material there is for the canal considering when it closed.

Richard

PS I referred to the pub where the statue used to be as the Miners Arms - I should have said The Jolly Collier

As you say, Gerry Beale's drawing only shows the front and west end. There is a note that says it is taken from "...known dimensions of similar buildings and from photographs" so I think he just stuck with what is known. On my list of things to do is to find other Clarke buildings and look at the back wall and gents ends.

There is a note somewhere, I think in the Maggs & Beale book, that mentions the hurdles for loading livestock. One photo from after the end of passenger services shows them on the platform but, earlier, they seem to have always been stored against the wall just outside the platform entrance.

Correctly or not, I'm taking the view that the rope shunting only applied before the 1907-10 extension. There is a photo of a Dean Goods shunting inside the colliery gate around 1910, so I can probably avoid the need for working horses as well.

Yes, it was the Jolly Collier, and the photo I remembered showing the statue outside the pub was in "Colliers Way" by Peter Collier!

Nick

As I understand it the reason for the rope shunting was that there was insufficient length of headshunt . That particulat problem being rectified when the line was extended through to Limpley Stoke. Never really understood why the original siding was not made longer in the first place rather than resort to the rope shunting as space was not an issue and cost would not have been that exorbitant.

Have you come up with any photos of the bottom siding being used for wagon repairs . I have only seen a reference to the fact materials were offloaded on the road and manhandkled down the bank by the bridge. . I have it in my mind it was Marcrofts who did any repair work there but I cannot remember where I got that little gem from.

I havent seen Colliers Way , must keep an eye out for that one but while checking my books for info I found my copy of Fred Flowers Book "Somerset Coal Mining Life " which I am now rereading as there is some fascinating stuff in it.

I must also get my copy of the Reverend Skinners book out and start going through that again . The Camerton area has always been known for unusual characters residing in the parish but the Reverend was in a class of his own and seems to have regarded the colliers almost as some sort of zoological specimens from a different planet , he does however give you some idea of the poor conditions and poverty endured by the miners in his writing so I think his intentions were right.

I've not seen any photos of wagon repairs, but the descriptions I've read could be interpreted as referring to the two short sidings up against the Old Pit batch inside the colliery gate. There is an adjacent hut between these and the trap/headshunt. Maggs & Beale say that it was Marcroft who had the contract with Somerset Collieries "...their depot being situated at the foot of the incline to New Pit."

I don't know the Fred Flowers book that you mention, I'll have to keep my eyes open

And, yes, the Reverend Skinner. It's a long time since I've read any of his writings. As you say he was "in a class of his own".

Nick

I have remembered that many years ago when seeking material about the Camerton Pits I asked the then Bath Industrial Museum if they had anything and was told that although not on display they had a scale model of New Pit.. They provided me with a set of copies of drawings and sketches of the buildings at New Pit that had been prepared for the construction of the model.

I have found those today so if any help let me know and I will get them scanned . I presume Bath at Work is the same organisation and it may be worth asking them if they have anything on Old Pit.

If you remember - the Reverend Skinner was Vicar of Camerton and his arch enemy was a collier by the name of Gould. By a strange coincidence 150 years later in the late 1960's the then Vicar of Camerton started to organise what was to become an annual Traction Engine Rally in aid of the parish church. A couple of his fellow organisers who owned a Sentinel Steam Wagon also lived in the village. Their name ?.........................................Gould !.

Now that's interesting, I'd never heard of the Bath Industrial Museum or Bath at Work. I'll have to pay them a visit next time I'm down there. I took a look at their web site and was amused by the statement "We are just 5-10 minutes’ walk from Bath city centre". I can just see myself running up Landown Road in five minutes. Maybe fifty years ago...

If it is not too much bother, I would appreciate a copy of the New Pit drawings. There's no hurry, though, and I am trying to avoid extending my interests too far in that direction.

An interesting coincidence linking Skinner and Gould. I can see I'll have to revisit Skinner's writings. The last time I read any, I was more concerned with his archaeological work than his reflections on his own time.

It looks like we've arrived at a fairly good understanding of the signalling at Camerton over on this thread on the forum, so I'll be doing a bit more tweaking of the track plan before baseboard construction begins. Just hope I can find the time to get started later this month.

Nick

Let me have an email address by PM and I will send you a scan of the New Pit Drawings as I have promised someone else a copy as well.

Have you come across a colour scheme for the Camerton station building as built?

All I have is red brick and yellow and stone quoins but nothing as to colours used for doors , window frames and canopy.

I've sent you a PM so look forward to seeing the drawings when you have time.

I've not seen anything written on colours other than a mention of the bricks. There are some photos that show all of the quoins to be pale yellow brick. They just look like stone from a distance. The only exceptions I can see are the corbelled pieces at the top and, possibly, a couple of pieces in the eastern gable forming part of the chimney. The lintels and sills are also stone.

As to paint, I doubt if there was any change between when it was built and WW1. Most photos just show the woodwork as dark, though on a few it is possible to make out a two tone scheme for the doors with the panels in a lighter colour. I presume this is the usual light and dark stone. There's no evidence of white window frames in the early shots (except one where it is only a single vertical and I think an illusion). Most window frames appear to be a similar tone to the doors, so I imagine they are dark stone. The only problem with this interpretation is that the canopy valence almost always appears to be in a lighter colour than what I think is light stone on the other woodwork. In many cases you could argue that the doors and windows are in shadow, but even where the light appears more even, the valence appears somewhat lighter.

Nick

Whilst on the subject of the station building, I've been looking around for details of the rear wall of other William Clarke buildings. Examples found so far confirm your earlier suggestion about the windows that "...its a fairly safe bet if fitted to the back they would be opposite the ones in the front wall."

Most Clarke stations are of one of the larger patterns but, of the smaller ones, this recent view of Avonwick confirms three windows and no door. Note also the two small windows in the toilet block. Another recent picture, this time of Gara Bridge shows an identical pattern. Again, Loddiswell is similar though the toilet block is not visible and Bearley, though more complex on this side, also shows three windows.

From these, it is probably reasonable to assume that Camerton would have had the same three windows plus two in the toilet block. I assume, therefore, that access to the well in the back yard would have been via the path that leads to the door of the gents.

Nick

When the proposed Clutton Station rebuilding preservation scheme had its own web site there was a set of pictures of what I think was a Clarke Building that had been done up privately , track laid and some rolling stock obtained . I think it was Forest of Dean area but I am not sure and that web site seems to have been taken down .

Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the station and Newent is the only one that comes to mind but I am not sure if it was that one and if I am getting stations mixed up.

Hope the New Pit stuff came through ok.

Thanks for all the New Pit drawings, Richard. Yes, I remember that preserved Clarke building on the Clutton project web site. Like you, I cannot remember where it was. I thought I had a bookmark but it was probably lost in a disc failure a few years ago.

Got the memory into gear at last and the stations in question are on the former Leominster to Bromyard line at FENCOTE and ROWDEN MILL . Both excellent examples of preserved William Clarke Stations.

Welll done! Rowden Mill shows the same pattern at the back, although I think it is a larger building. It's more difficult to tell at Fencote, though it looks similar.