First steps in ply and rivet track building

[hayfield]

I thought I would share my first steps in building P4 track, I built a straight pannel which will be used when testing turnouts, as it is my first attempt to build with ply sleepers and rivets

 

 

Sleepers attached to a template, when building in anger I will stain the sleepers first. At the top of the picture you can see the tin I sleepers I obtained. There are both 9' and 8'6" sleepers mixed up.

 

 

The first rail has been attached to the sleepers using solder paint

 

 

Second rail attached (with solder paint)using gauges. Some good lessons have been learnt.

 

I re-used some old rail, fine for a test piece but not for a model. I used repositionalable spray mount to stick the sleepers to the plan, the sleepers moved. But was it the spray not strong enough or the rivets holding the sleepers above the paper/glue.

 

Some rivets seem to be higher than others, but that might be a trick on the eye. I must learn to be more carefull with the soldering iron as there are a few burn marks on some sleepers. Happy with 1st try though.

 

My 1st P4 turnout will have copperclad sleepers. I am happy using this method of building and for the 1st effort in these tollerances I can consentrate on the gaugeing of the rails.

[hayfield]

Just built my 1st P4 turnout in copperclad as planned.

 

 

As well as sticking the template to the building board, I stuck another template of the crossing and built a V jig. This photo has a 1 in 6 jig on it, when I offered the V to the plan I realised I was making an A5. So a quick rebuild was done

 

 

Rather than make the wing and switch rail in 1 piece I built them seperatly and cut a notch in the rear of the bend with a needle file, this gave a nice sharp bend

 

 

Turnout finnished, it was a good learning curve. I am glad I did not jump straight into a ply and rivet version as I may have struggled with the build.

 

The turnout works fine, a wagon runs up and down smothly and without any wheel drop. Now off to stain some sleepers once I have punched a few holes. And thoughts must turn to a cheap loco conversion.

[hayfield]

Last night I punched holes in sleepers for an A5 turnout so I can try out the ply and rivet construction method.

 

 

Took some time but in the end I got to a reasonable speed.

 

 

Tonight as per Ian Rice the sleepers were put into a diluted stain mix, with the lid on shaken, then put on kitchen paper to dry out.

 

Next job tomorrow is to rivet them, I have no idea if the rivets go into the press up or down so a bit of trial and error will have to be done. I think in the future I will build them as per Ian Rice, with only rivets at certain places and will use chairs on the majority of sleepers, but one step at a time.

[Grovenor]

All the press tools I have used have a slot in the anvil to hold the head of the rivet while you bring the press down on the stem and squash it flush with the bottom of the timber, ie the rivets are in the tool head down, the slot allows you to slide the timbers along so each rivet in turn is under the anvil.

 

Mind you the tooling in your press does not look like any I have used, I assume that the tooling in the pic is the punch.

Regards

Keith

[hayfield]

Keith thanks for the info, I have checked both the upper and lower parts of the press and they are both flat. I have tried using scrap sleepers putting the rivets in both ways and the results are the same. Yes the punch is in the centre, the press is the 2 outer stems.

 

 

I took the advice in the Ian Rice book and put a few rivets at a time on the tin lid and pushed the sleepers on to the rivets.

 

 

I broke a few sleepers either by pressing too hard / hole being off center / holes too close together.

The sleepers are stuck to the template with spram mount

 

 

The V was built in the jig, tried tinning the rivets first with multicore solder and soldered the V to the rivets. Back to solder paint as it was easier.

 

I will build the next turnout as per Ian Rice, using rivets in strategic positions and use plastic chairs on the majority of sleepers. This will mean I will have to glue the sleepers to a template and glue the template to a baseboard / underlay

[Flymo748]

I will build the next turnout as per Ian Rice, using rivets in strategic positions and use plastic chairs on the majority of sleepers. This will mean I will have to glue the sleepers to a template and glue the template to a baseboard / underlay

 

I have to say, that's a cracking rate of progress. I wish that I could knock out trackwork so quickly, and I've had plenty of practice. I respect what you've done in deliberately going up a planned learning curve, and it seems to have worked out really well.

 

I hope that you're really satisfied with the smooth way that a wagon runs through a P4 turnout. To me, that's one of the most important and pleasing aspects of modelling to 18.83.

 

When it comes to loco conversion, there are a number of "drop-in" options available, as well as a wealth of experience that you can draw upon.

 

Cheers

Flymo

[hayfield]

Flymo

 

Thanks, I have been finishing a K's Terrier at the same time. Copperclad turnouts are very quick to build, as for ply and rivet, I cheated slightly as I obtained some pre-cut sleepers for some turnouts (only hade to add 3 or 4 new ones)so saved some time cutting them out. I think I will go Ian Rice's route of mostly plastic chaired track.

 

Thoughts have been turned to a loco, firstly I thought of a diesel. But I have a Ratio brake 3rs which I will P4 with rocking W iron, sprung buffers and brass handrails. So I may have to convert either a K's or Wills Pannier. I do have a LSWR 02 (Jedinco) which would be ideal or a D&S tram loco. So I am at a cross road as what to do.

[hayfield]

I have had another look at loco kits that are available which I could build to P4. I have either Wills / SEF M7, E1 and a H class. I have an etched chassis for the M7 and need to buy etched chassis for the other 2 anyway. Or I have a MTK Bristol rail car which will be a simple build. Or I could P4 a SEF Hornby replacement chassis and would therefore have a choice of various locos.

 

As for coaches I have a Phoenix Brake 3rd waiting to be built, also 2 wooden brake 3rds and a compo (these can be detailed quite well) I have a K's SR brake 3rd and utility van both in white metal. Or I have various Comet, BSL and other GWR coaches which will convert easily

 

I am thinking of just a simple shunting plank, 4 turnouts and a small platform and station building. Plenty of time to consider which way to go.

[hayfield]

Well here is my 1st attempt at P4 turnouts (and last using fully riveted sleepers)

 

 

I had a slight problem when testing the turnout. I have 1 wagon and 1 milk van to test turnouts. The milk van is compensated and the wagon is ridgid. When doing a rolling test the van was fine, however the wagon would derail only from one end when the turnout was tipped slightly sideways (only one way to the left) and only when the same end was leading, This happened in both directions. The wagon was fine on the copperclad turnout. The van was fine tipped sideways whilst rolling either side and both ends.

 

I adjusted the brass W irons to a slightly tighter fit and all was fine. I checked the gauge and whether there were any kinks in the rail but all was OK. If I held the turnout so it eas slightly concave no derailments. As it happened in both directions with the same end I dont think any brake gear was rubbing. Still all fine now.

 

I now plan as said to build a part riveted and part chaired turnout as per Ian Rice's book, I think it will be EM first again as I can test it out under power, where as in P4 all I can use is the odd wagon. Must go to my local finescale Model Railway Club

[hayfield]

I am now starting to build as per Ian Rice's instructions in An approach to Building Finescale Track in 4mm. That is to build in ply sleepers with a combination of rivet and plastic chairs.

 

As in the previous builds I have decided to built it in EM scale, as I have a loco I can test it thourghly with and as I am comfortable in building to EM standards, the learning point is to build with rivet and chairs.

 

I have ordered a set of S4 loco wheels which will go on a Comet 3F chassis I have. So will have in a few weeks a means to test the P4 (or is it S4) turnouts and track properly.

 

 

I looked in the book at the places he uses rivets, I must admit I altered which sleepers were rivited around the check rails and added 2 more rivited sleepers. You can just make out the rivets (should have sanded them to make them shiny)

 

 

Chairs threaded on to the stock rail and spaced for the non riveter normal chairs. I have fitted the V without chairs as only 1 set could be fitted and they might have to be cut down to fit anyway.

[Guest jim s-w]

That look great John

 

You seem to be enjoying yourself too!

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[hayfield]

Thanks Jim

 

Not quite up to your standards yet, and certainly building it this way I think you need to enjoy it. A bit more progress today

 

 

Just a switch rail and 2 check rails to fit, but I decided to try and hide some of the rivets first. I should have finished fitting the rails first and will do in future. I dont know if I am using the correct solvent, I am using Mek Pak. I may not be using enough solvent as some chairs stick and others have not, so I have given them a second brushfull. The cut down chairs I have used epoxy which seems to have worked.

 

Happy with the progress so far

[Mark]

Not bad for a first attempt.

 

I am in the process of building P4 track for Brent, but I will be using a mixture of Ply and Rivet, C&L, P4 track company and scratch built parts to build mine.

 

I have built a series of dedicated jigs for each turnout that hold everything in the correct place.

 

One thing I did notice on yours, which you may find helpful is that you appear to have soldered a copperclad strip between the blades to act as the tie bar. In my experience, this could be a cause of a potential failure in use, because over time, the solder will fatigue and the joint will fail, because you will be straining the joint each time you operate the turnout as the blades will not be able to rotate relative to the tie bar.

 

The method I have adopted is to solder a piece of 0.7mm brass wire to each blade bent at 90 degrees with the tail going down. I then drill a hole in the copper clad and solder in a piece of brass tube, with a 0.7mm bore. This is then insulated in the normal way. The advantage is that the blades can swivel without twisting the tie bar and over straining the joint. The other big advantage is it allows you to have a robust tie bar below the ballast and use a cosmetic tie bar where it should be visible. I have used this method in the past without any problems.

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

 

Well here is my 1st attempt at P4 turnouts (and last using fully riveted sleepers)

 

 

I had a slight problem when testing the turnout. I have 1 wagon and 1 milk van to test turnouts. The milk van is compensated and the wagon is ridgid. When doing a rolling test the van was fine, however the wagon would derail only from one end when the turnout was tipped slightly sideways (only one way to the left) and only when the same end was leading, This happened in both directions. The wagon was fine on the copperclad turnout. The van was fine tipped sideways whilst rolling either side and both ends.

 

I adjusted the brass W irons to a slightly tighter fit and all was fine. I checked the gauge and whether there were any kinks in the rail but all was OK. If I held the turnout so it eas slightly concave no derailments. As it happened in both directions with the same end I dont think any brake gear was rubbing. Still all fine now.

 

I now plan as said to build a part riveted and part chaired turnout as per Ian Rice's book, I think it will be EM first again as I can test it out under power, where as in P4 all I can use is the odd wagon. Must go to my local finescale Model Railway Club

[alangdance]

Mark

 

Do have any pictures or photos to show as how you do your tie bars.

 

This would be most helpful.

 

Regards

 

Alan

[hayfield]

Mark Normon solomon described this in I think Model Railway Journal, he uses lil pins (lace making pins) I have done this with Peco track pins, once you have sanded off the metal black it works well. Having said that the copperclad strip is just temporary, but many use this method without any problems.

 

One other thought is to use a sleeper with rivets

[Mark]

Unfortunately, the layout that was built with this method was sold nearly three years ago, so photo's aren't available. The turnouts were built ten years before and operated reliably at a number of exhibitions. The new pointwork is being built at the moment, but I am a long way from doing tie bars at the moment. The current issue is working out how to do a robust loose heel turnout.

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

 

Mark

 

Do have any pictures or photos to show as how you do your tie bars.

 

This would be most helpful.

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Donw]

I am not sure which chairs you are using if it is C+L use 12 Butanone (available from C+L) it works much better than Mek Pak. Different plastic to styrene sheet..

Working in 0 I use the chairs throughout but fix the frog down to a brass screw ( hidden by the frog) to give a firm starting point.

Whe I worked with ply and rivet (EM gauge society parts) I would place the sleeper over the rivet and then a couple of taps with a hammer would fix it. Takes you by surprise to realise that was 30 years ago.

Donw

[polybear]

Hi,

 

I've been experimenting with trackmaking techniques also. One thing I would say about copperclad and also ply & rivet methods is to try fitting chairs... they don't fit

 

So you'll need to take account of this and be prepared to mess about making the chairs fit. My next plan is to try copperclad but with some form of brass(?) spacer beneath the rail, in order to lift the rail off the sleeper (as per prototype). This will (hopefully!) enable the fitting of chairs without any need for reshaping the chair because the rail is too low.

 

I've also had a play with the Masokits etched chair system; I need to have a further play before coming to any conclusions as to whether or not the system is right for me (it certainly does look pretty good, is both strong and adjustable and the trackwork is chaired as it is built. No connections etc. etc).

 

When I get my a*** into gear I may even post some pictures as I go...

 

Brian

[Flymo748]

 

I have ordered a set of S4 loco wheels which will go on a Comet 3F chassis I have. So will have in a few weeks a means to test the P4 (or is it S4) turnouts and track properly.

 

From the Scalefour Society website:

 

"Is the terminology confusing?

 

Protofour, P4, S4, Scalefour, finescale? In simple terms Protofour, abbreviated to P4, is the published standard for track and wheels supported by the Scalefour Society. In a modelling context, S4 is used to refer to the use of tighter construction tolerances than the P4 standard by a few members of the Scalefour Society. Of course, S4 is also used as an abbreviation for Scalefour when discussing the matters of the eponymous Society, its members, and their modelling."

 

The differing usages of P4 and S4 *is* the one remaining legacy of the dual Scalefour / Protofour Society existence back when The World Was Young. All now thankfully in the past, and the general rule of thumb is that 18.83 modellers use the P4 standards whether they are members of the EMGS, Scalefour Society, or nothing at all.

 

HTH

Flymo

[hayfield]

I have (nearly) finished the EM turnout, a good learning curve a couple of things I might have done differently but happy with the overall process.

 

 

Now to test it with a loco and stock to check running qualities.

[hayfield]

Ballasting track on high density foam sheet nearly as per Ian Rice. Testing out the method

 

If you ballast track using cork sheet, ballast and PVA glue, the PVA locks everything solid and transmits sound and vibration through the baseboard.

 

Ian Rice floats his track above high density foam so that he gets better running (less vibration), the additional benefit is quiter movement. I have also heard dilute Copydex does not lock everything solid, so this is a hybred of the 2 systems

 

 

High density foam stuck to a board with copydex

 

 

The plan is attached to the foam with spray mount.

 

 

Neat Copydex is applied to the top surface, sleepers applied then covered in ballast, done in about 6 or so sleepers a time so the glue stays fresh.

[PhilEakins]

The current issue is working out how to do a robust loose heel turnout.

 

The answer, I was told yesterday, is a thin strip of phosphor bronze to act as a hinge. Create a flat omega loop and solder the legs to the web of the rails either side of the joint leaving the loop to do the hinging action.

 

 

Phil

[hayfield]

I now know why Ian Rice dilutes the Copydex a bit, as its moulting a bit and there are bald bits at either end, still Mr Rice went over bare patches with more chippings and dilute glue in an eye dropper.

 

 

not all the sleepers are the same height exactally, may have been something with different depths of the glue or warped sleepers from closing the rivets. I had a rivited sleeper every 4th sleeper, must remembewr to start and finish with a riveted sleeper.

 

Mk 3 attempt will be fully riveted off board, then stuck to the foam. I have had some sleepers soaking for 24 hours and they have come out darker.

 

Happy with the progress so far,the ply sleepers realy look the part, but is it worth all the trouble with the chairs ?

[PWSlack]

Do bear in mind that C&L nd Exactoscale <usual disclaimer> polystyrene chairs stick well to plywood using MEX/butanone plastic solvent. One gets a better-looking track a lot faster....

[hayfield]

Do bear in mind that C&L nd Exactoscale <usual disclaimer> polystyrene chairs stick well to plywood using MEX/butanone plastic solvent. One gets a better-looking track a lot faster....

 

PW thanks for the advice

 

I have built C&L turnouts and plain track in the past and the system looks fine, wooden sleepers are the next step forward.

 

My thoughts at the moment is to just build a small test track, I have loads of sleepers and rivets and am intrigued with the building method (sorry for beeing a bit geekish) I will try and get some stronger solvent at the weekend. Also I am learning what can and cannot be done when building off the layout board in this gauge

 

I just want a small test track to see if I can build to these standards, and have working buffers and get good running etc. I doubt if it will ever have any scenery and no more than the odd loco and a couple of wagons and coaches.

 

Hopefully it will improve my modelling standards in other gauges.