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Fixing the "Vomit Comet," Part 1.


MinerChris

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blog-0962143001358974389.jpgThis blog entry starts with the entirely predictable “Has it really been six month since I last wrote something,” comment. Well yes it has. Real life it seems has a way of getting in the way of modelling time, that and commuting into London on Mr Branson's 1:1 train set every day.

 

In that awkward time between graduating and starting the first proper job, I did manage to get some modelling done. This was in the form of one of Mr Higg's excellent replacement chassis for commercial bodies. The body that was donated was a 14xx in lined green livery picked up off an popular auction site. I chose the 14xx in particular as it fitted in nicely with my scenario for Congdon's Shop and it would be useful for the branch service on St Ruth, whilst also making up for the lack of steam on the layout. It also lacks outside pistons which I don't want to tackle just quite yet a I foresee it as another area of problems. I had meant to write something up earlier about the construction of this from an absolute beginner’s point of view but consequently I haven't got around to it.

 

The chassis at one point was running quite well, albeit on a pure smoothed 12VDC supply and with two white-metal cars bluetac'ed on to give some traction.

 

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A number of things were changed from this early rendition. Firstly the cars were removed as they wouldn't fit under the body. I also changed the way the motor was mounted, replacing the bracket at the front of the motor with brass rod soldered onto the terminals at the rear. From memory I think the chassis went for 4 rebuilds, mainly due to issues with delaminating PCB. I can't remember how many times the wheels were quartered, but it was probably in the tens of times.

 

You may gather from the title of this entry that the final result wasn't all together successful. I did manage to get the chassis “running,” and the body “fitted,” before St Ruth went to TINGS and consequently it made its show debut there.

 

Needless to say when the Autotank and Autocoach appeared from the branch, it was promptly followed by the “finger of god,” or an “earthquake,” knock from below the baseboard. Even when the loco was moving the juddering was so violent that at one point it lost its Autocoach. This is the reason why the designation “Vomit Comet,” was applied. The Autotank combination then limped back, disgraced by its builder, to the fiddleyard, where it was replaced by one of these newfangled diseasel thingbob’s. Not exactly a good advertisement of the better running qualities of 2mmFS. It was so bad that I even forgot to get a picture of it on the layout.

 

The combination has had one other outing of note, to the AGM in Bedford where it accompanied South Yard. It here that Mr Higg's himself looked at it, along with Rich Brummitt and gave me some pointers as to how to improve the running. After this, it has sat in a box whilst I oohed and arred as to what to do with it. Eventually, after was over Christmas, I decided that I had better stop dithering and start to go through some of these suggestions.

 

I should reiterate that I am not a loco builder, and these practices are probably questionable at best. Those with much more experience would do things differently the first time around. Most of these points seem to have been debated quite thoroughly on the 14 page forum entry.

 

 

 

1. Too much time I spent drinking beer rather than building the engine. Especially a 0-4-2 as a first try, where there is little to no weight.

 

Well... this isn't going to change now.

 

 

2. Rusty Wheels.

 

Rich's suggestion was to polish the wheels off with Autosol metal polish. I can definitely see the benefit of this as the steel tyres on the association wheels rust extremely quickly, which is catastrophic for the pick-up on this very light engine. Thus the coupling rods were removed and the drivers pulled off the muffs. The sideframes were then un-soldered from the body, (damaging them in the process :wild: ,) revealing the pony wheels to also take off.

 

The wheels were then placed in a mini drill and the polish put on using a cotton bud, at the same time that the Manor's wheels were done. Now the wheels are safely put away in a re-sealable bag away from moisture until they are needed once again.

 

 

 

3. Bent Chassis.

 

This really where the tale of woe begins. Once the wheels and sideframes were taken off the chassis, something caught my eye. The chassis wasn't lying flat on the workbench.... a check with a ruler confirmed my fears.

 

I'm not sure how or where this happened or how, but I am fairly certain that it either happened when the wheel were pressed on the muffs using the bench vice or perhaps an error was made when building the soldering jig.

Worse than this, when the spacers were un-soldered it was found that the etched sides were also as bent as a banana. Surely this was the sign to start again from scratch...

 

In an effort to save £15, the etched sides were clamped on the baseboard, and lengths of brass rod were soldered onto the sides in a truss like pattern. These are strategically placed in order to avoid the uprights of the soldering jig. The hope is that these brass rods will both straighten the chassis out and make it stiffer so that it doesn't occur again.

 

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Once the soldering jig had been straightened using an set square, the sides were placed in once again, (MK5 remember...) The sides were checked for square-ness by using long lengths of axle steel (~1')

 

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Initially pieces of brass were used to “tack,” the sides together, which allowed for the sides to be removed from the jig. It was then possible to check the straightness again using the ruler before placing the sides back in the jig and soldering the spacer’s onto these. Initially I had used the wider 7mm PCB spacer, however I reverted to the 6.4mm wide spacer. I think that using the wider PCB had caused the ends to splay on the sides due to my ropey soldering.

 

The narrower strip certainly left much more “tolerance.”

In an effort to reduce the amount of delaminations, I decided to solder the flat spacers in place and then cut the insulation gaps afterwards using a razor saw.

 

This immensely improved the success rate, possibly as it spreads the heat over a relatively larger area. The downside to this is that there is only one isolation gap rather than doubling up. The vertical spacers were similarly treated however an isolation gap was placed down the middle before emplacement due to the difficulties of putting a razor saw into the chassis.

 

4. Bearings and Simpson spring's

 

As I was aware that electrical pick-up was going to be a problem with a light, 6 wheeled engine. I decided to follow the recommendation to fit Simpson springs and completed these to the letter. This basically involved reaming the bearings out to 1.6mm and using the straightened spring wire from couplers. I found this wire extremely fiddly to use, and when the wheels were fitted the wire had lost its springiness and had already bent into the wrong shape. I had replaced this with DG wire which worked well, however to keep the friction low I only fitted these onto each side. I have now replaced these with slightly finer wire, fitted these on all 6 wheels and used a longer length to try and reduce the friction whilst maintaining the springiness.

 

I have also replaced the bearings on the driving wheels. I know that this shouldn't make any difference under the tolerances of 2mm, however I think that under my loose tolerances it didn't help the quartering.

 

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5. Sideframe Repairs.

 

The sideframes that cover the rear pony truck are folded up from the etch material and then soldered on, and hence not the strongest construction. The etched spacers were replaced with lumps of brass, cut and filed square before being soldered to the main body. The sideframes will be fixed in place with glue once the pony wheels are positioned and fitted, to avoid damaging the paintwork.

 

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6. Motor Mounting.

 

Fitting the motor was the subject of many trials and iterations. I chose the flat can motor to use a recommended by Chris. Others that I have spoken to would recommend shelling out for a coreless motor. I am however told that this could be risky with AMR, PWM controllers around.

 

Perhaps my first mistake was to chop off the wrong end of the spindle as this left the holes for the bolts in the gearbox end of the motor. After trying several different mount configurations I couldn't make one accurately enough to use and maintain electrical isolation. This would definitely be a lot easier if the motor was the other way around.

 

In the end I have opted to use a solution similar to what was used before. The problem with this is that after painting the chassis, the motor has to be soldered into position. I have probably been lucky once already no to get paint in the motor after soldering it on before spray painting it.

 

To solve this problem, I have used brass tube soldered to the end of the chassis attached to the side-frame spacer brass. Into this brass tube, appropriately sized brass rod is inserted which is in turn soldered to the motor terminals which creates a socket. Overall this configuration isn't perfect as there is a lot of strain placed on the solder joints on the terminals, however for the occasional fitting and removal this shouldn't be much of a problem. The other problem is that an old bit of rail ticket also provides the insulation between the chassis and the motor body, perhaps not the most elegant engineering solution.

 

Originally I had used both sides of the gearbox, however I think that this may have been causing an bind in the gear chain. As a lot of other people have done, I chopped the nearside off. With the other end of the motor still supported, there isn’t too much problem with the Motor moving around.

 

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This brings it up to date so far. I think that I am now at the point of having to wait for the weather to break to do some painting, and possibly waiting further to use that etching primer that my dad was using for his manor. There is still much more to do, but I will have to save that for the next entry. Unfortunately that will probably be another 6 months away. :mosking:

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and the medal for perseverance goes to...

 

The first time around no one has experience and our work probably had similar misgivings. When I started building chassis (sadly Chris hadn't done any kits then) I discarded three before I got a good one. It can be demoralising. It seems you have got back up and are on track, or you will be soon.

 

P.s. You could have picked an easier prototype. Mine runs okay but it can't pull anything much. If that motor is heavier than the small coreless ones that could exacerbate the traction problem that results from not having weight over the driving wheels.

 

No apologies for taking Chris out of context or that horrible pun. :jester:

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Perseverance indeed. Impressive that you've kept at it.

 

I laughed out loud at your humorous description. I can see why you had to remove the whitemetal cars - nice try but I suppose it wouldn't have worked in the long run :-)

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well done at the  stage you've got to, by now  many of many of my  attempts hit the wall ( literally   :nono: )  and end up in the too finish pile 

 

keep doing it is looking good

 

btw the vomit comet was always the jet foil out of Dover

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and the medal for perseverance goes to...

 

The first time around no one has experience and our work probably had similar misgivings. When I started building chassis (sadly Chris hadn't done any kits then) I discarded three before I got a good one. It can be demoralising. It seems you have got back up and are on track, or you will be soon.

 

Perseverance indeed. Impressive that you've kept at it.

 

well done at the  stage you've got to, by now  many of many of my  attempts hit the wall ( literally   :nono: )  and end up in the too finish pile 

 

Thank Chaps, Perseverance is one word for it. Madness might be another, Its an close line... There have been an couple of times where the lump of Nickel-Silver have been close to flying out of the window.

 

 

 

P.s. You could have picked an easier prototype. Mine runs okay but it can't pull anything much. If that motor is heavier than the small coreless ones that could exacerbate the traction problem that results from not having weight over the driving wheels.

 

 

I definitely could have picked an easier loco than the 14xx. Perhaps an pannier could be suggested for other people starting out? I'm not expecting miracles in the pulling power in  the end, If I could get it  running smoothly with one or two AutoCoaches, or perhaps three or four wagons then I would be happy.

 

 

 

btw the vomit comet was always the jet foil out of Dover

 

Interesting information Nick! I also have an unhappy memory of the Dover-Boulogne catamaran ferry of an similar nature.

 

 

 

I laughed out loud at your humorous description. I can see why you had to remove the whitemetal cars - nice try but I suppose it wouldn't have worked in the long run :-)

 

 

No apologies for taking Chris out of context or that horrible pun. :jester:

 

Glad that my words raised an chortle... All bad pun's received with gratitude!

 

 

Best Regards.

 

Chris.

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Well done Chris - you have achieved far more than me in 2mmFS (I'm still just rewheeling N gauge stock after 5 years) in a much shorter time so keep going as its very impressive.

 

Me too, the dialogue made me laugh....:laugh:

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Hi Chris,

Its good to read a 'warts and all' account of 2FS chassis building! In the etched chassis thread I've mentioned some of the problems with my Jinty kit. I completely gave up on an earlier Fencehouses J72 kit after messing up the chassis so badly two of the wheels are not longer concentric, after so many attempts at adding, removing, and re-quartering!

 

It does seem a problem with etched chassis in general that its almost "one shot", as its so easy to distort things once you start removing and replacing components - I like your bracing solution! I think I might be able to get away without this on the Jinty, but I'll definitely try it if it comes to it! 

 

I also like the thicker phosphor bronze for the springs. You said you went up from N gauge spring to DG wire, then back down a bit - to which diameter? The springs on my jinty are already, as you say, bent so much they can't be exerting much pressure anymore! Taking my chassis along to the MRC this evening, Tim and Mike were much less pessimistic about its running than I had been, and it was amazing to see the difference with extra weight added. They seemed confident that extra weight, and running in, would sort it out ... I'm not quite so confident but I'll persevere. 

 

There is hope for us beginners ... I hope ! :)

 

Justin

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Chris,

 

Your blog entry has come at just the right time for me.  I have similar issues with my 57xx chassis and have stripped it back down to try to do it properly this time.  I have a couple of different thicknesses of phosphor bronze wire - not sure what SWG but they measure at 0.25mm and 0.3mm - I intend using the thinner wire to hopefully exert less pressure to hopefully minimise friction (although being round I guess that the contact patch will be miniscule anyway!)  Because the stuff I have is coiled there is a natural tendency for it to curl back up, so I was going to employ that such that the force is used against the axle.

 

I too like your bacing solution, although I managed to straighten my banana shaped frames with gentle finger pressure so I'm hoping that once back together all will be well.

 

Ian

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Weight makes a big difference to bothe running an hauling ability. Fit as much as you can with a check to make sure the wheels can still slip with the buffers against a stop.

I'm sure I used 0.008" wire for my pick ups.

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Your blog entry has come at just the right time for me.  I have similar issues with my 57xx chassis and have stripped it back down to try to do it properly this time. 

 

Nice to meet you at on Tuesday Ian... That 57xx Chassis will look nice on ST Ruth..

 

I also like the thicker phosphor bronze for the springs. You said you went up from N gauge spring to DG wire, then back down a bit - to which diameter?

 

 I have a couple of different thicknesses of phosphor bronze wire - not sure what SWG but they measure at 0.25mm and 0.3mm - I intend using the thinner wire to hopefully exert less pressure to hopefully minimise friction (although being round I guess that the contact patch will be miniscule anyway!)  Because the stuff I have is coiled there is a natural tendency for it to curl back up, so I was going to employ that such that the force is used against the axle.

 

I'm sure I used 0.008" wire for my pick ups.

 

Chaps, I have just measured the bit of scrap that I have left over, It's SWG33, 0.25mm, 10Thou depending on how you lean... I agree that its probably best to use the curl to help you, but the extra thickness seems to be an bit more forgiving at being bent into the correct position without breaking (or passing the yield point if you want to get technical!) I don't know if it will produce too much friction yet, but Rich's experiences sound promising.

 

 

 

I too like your bracing solution, although I managed to straighten my banana shaped frames with gentle finger pressure so I'm hoping that once back together all will be well.

 

It does seem a problem with etched chassis in general that its almost "one shot", as its so easy to distort things once you start removing and replacing components - I like your bracing solution! I think I might be able to get away without this on the Jinty, but I'll definitely try it if it comes to it! 

Glad you like the bracing, I think with an bit more care, they might not have been needed. Certainly for the first few chassis' I will see if they can be fitted on to avoid any more bending.

 

 

 

Taking my chassis along to the MRC this evening, Tim and Mike were much less pessimistic about its running than I had been, and it was amazing to see the difference with extra weight added. They seemed confident that extra weight, and running in, would sort it out ... I'm not quite so confident but I'll persevere. 

 

There is hope for us beginners ... I hope ! :)

 

Weight makes a big difference to bothe running an hauling ability. Fit as much as you can with a check to make sure the wheels can still slip with the buffers against a stop.

I'm sure I used 0.008" wire for my pick ups.

 

I have to say that I completely agree with you Rich. The one thing that I did manage to do is pack the bodywork full of lead, and more will be fixed onto the chassis once It's running sweetly. Though I was unaware of the test! If Tim and Mike think that all is not lost then I too would be quite hopeful! 

 

 

Well done Chris - you have achieved far more than me in 2mmFS (I'm still just rewheeling N gauge stock after 5 years) in a much shorter time so keep going as its very impressive.

I may not have been around for long, but there's the starting's of an small pile of loco's waiting for wheels to be sent to Gordon. My problem is that there is also an small pile of steam engines awaiting chassis' as well...

 

Besides there is also the question of unfinished BHE 1Gen DMU's... Mine recently didn't win it's bout with the file that fell off the bookcase.

 

 

Me too, the dialogue made me laugh.... :laugh:

 

Its good to read a 'warts and all' account of 2FS chassis building! 

 

Thanks Gents!

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Chris,

 

It was good to meet you too.  I had not realised that you were Andy's son or that you were also MinerChris :-)

 

I originally put a 90 degree bend in the phosphor bronze wire I originally used to feed into the holes in the chassis, but to bend it that far you have to anneal it first - I just held it in a pair of pliers with just mil or two protruding and heated that on a tea light candle, let it cool naturally and that bit can then be bent successfully without breaking.  Obviously any soot needs to be cleaned off before soldering into the hole.

 

Ian

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