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Does It Offend You, Yeah?


richbrummitt

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A picture heavy blog post to ask a fairly simple question. If it is possible to have a poll on a blog post I can't work out how but it would be useful in this instance.

 

I had previously consigned myself to the replacement of the unsatisfactory toggle switches, which had only been bought because they were available in 3PDT and 4PDT flavours, with banks of linked slide switches. With the TOUs coming out as well I figured I would change these too.

 

Having played with the S4 Society lever frame previously on Jerry's Tucking Mill and seeing them again on the S4 stand at the Southampton show I could not resist them any longer. The slide switches went in a cupboard and 10 levers worth (2 kits) were ordered immediately on returning from the show. The signal box at Littlemore had 15 levers, reduced to 7 and was then demolished leaving an actual ground frame where the box had been reclassified as one earlier. I figured that 10 levers would suffice because the layout isn't big enough to model any of the distants that could have existed but I would need the odd extra one where a switch was operated manually.The discussion on how the layout might be signalled based on my needs for the model and to use 10 levers is in a separate topic here. The electrical work will be covered in a later blog post with the help of a bulk purchase of microswitches that arrived today.

 

This brings me back to the question. When considering where to house or attach the levers on the baseboards, which are a bit minimalist, I thought that it might be fun to have them located behind the signal box. I like the idea of operating from the front and this location would be convenient because very few operating rods would have to cross the baseboard joint. One down side is that it could make it a pain to photograph the layout. This problem could be overcome by making the frames detachable but I will demonstrate later why I do not think this is much of an issue. What might be the biggest problem is that it spoils the overall impression of the layout when exhibited. I've trial fitted the frames where I'm thinking of putting them and taken some overall views of the layout as best I can in it's current location.

 

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So does it offend you?

 

It should still be possible to get some good photograph opportunities without the levers in view, or with the possibility of them being cropped out without losing the subject or the composition of the image as demonstrated by the following viewpoints looking along the layout.

 

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I'd appreciate yes or no answers to the above question, along with any other comments. Eecially from any people who exhibition manage.

 

It's not possible to have them any lower than in the pictures without moving them outside of the baseboard facings because of the internal structure of the boards.

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Is moving them outside of the baseboard too much of an issue? moving the forwar a few inches so there on a seperate panel mounted to the front of the layout, thereby separating the control and the layout modelling. Does that make sense anywhere but in my head?

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Rich, to be honest yes it does disturb the visual impression for me. The problem is that the levers not only break the illusion, but also confuse the impression because they are still models, but in a different scale.

 

But it does depend on the purpose of the layout, I think. If the aim is educational (eg how a railway is operated) then it would be fine because illusion wouldn't be the main purpose.

 

It's a great lever frame though, very envious :-)

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Doesn't work for me either I'm afraid.

 

If you were to move it forwards off the front edge of the baseboard then drop it below the height of the scenery I think that it would be much better. Demonstrating the use of a lever frame whilst not detracting from the scenery.

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love the look and tactile behaviour  of  lever frames and even thought of using some but could never work out where to position them   :scratchhead:

 

sorry but your positioning spoils the illusion well at least to me it does  :nono:

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I think that Kris has got it just right, Rich. When Jas Millham has his S Scale 'Rookfield' out at shows he operates from the front and his lever frame is below the level of the boards. I seem to remember that he even has a sort of electronic token instrument built into it!

Should add as well that Jas sits at the side and doesn't plonk himself directly in the middle of the layout. I don't think that Jas' woolly pullover with a steam train on it is compulsory for those wishing to operate lever frames at the front of the layout :-)

 

David

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Hi Rich,

 

What about moving it outside the baseboard and make your control panel as far as possible, a working model of a signal box interior around the scale of the levers? If it is going to be a feature out the front, make a REAL feature of it!

 

Just a thought...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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Great blog entry Rich - good to canvas opinions on stuff like this.

 

I'm a bit old fashioned about these things and for me its just not working I am afraid.

 

One thing I have always admired about this layout is the proportions and the restraint, which allows the 'train in the landscape' feel demonstrated by some of your pics...

 

Hence, my worry is, it might over dominate and become 'levers in the landscape'...

 

But hey...Rule No. 1 applies of course ;)

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Rich,

 

The lever frame does detract from the layout.  I can understand where you are coming from, and for a personal non-exhibited layout putting the frame where you have it would be ideal, but for an exhibited layout I do feel that it just seems in the way. 

 

I did notice the lever frame on Jerry's Tucking Mill at the AGM and decided that "I want one of those", and I think Jerry's siting of it is best as it is "off scene" as it were (and uses electronics to do the "controlly" bit).  Obviously if you intend controlling the points and signals mechanically then siting it where you have makes a lot of sense, but I do think that unless you have a very low stool / kneel down then both you and it are going to be obtrusive :-)

 

From a number of levers point of view I think that the 10 you have should be sufficient as a few of the ones on the prototype would be to operate off-scene signals and facing point locks I would imagine (I assume that you won't be needing those to move in 2mm :-) ).

 

I look forward to seeing how this progresses though.

 

Ian

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Is moving them outside of the baseboard too much of an issue? moving the forwar a few inches so there on a seperate panel mounted to the front of the layout, thereby separating the control and the layout modelling. Does that make sense anywhere but in my head?

If they go on the outside there are some issues to work around. It is just more difficult. The ethos of the layout that everything was attached, somewhat permanently so that it could be moved as a self contained unit. I don't have the car it was originally designed to fit in though so some compromises can be made. They could go at the end instead.

It's a great lever frame though, very envious :-)

They have a nice feel and action to them. I'm sure the S4 Society would sell you one.

Doesn't work for me either I'm afraid.

The pattern emerges :)

love the look and tactile behaviour of lever frames and even thought of using some but could never work out where to position them :scratchhead:

Thanks Nick. Out of the way would be the best place, or so it seems. :D

Jas sits at the side and doesn't plonk himself directly in the middle of the layout.

Sorry, I should have explained that I wasn't planning to sit with my back to the audience whilst they watch me play with my toy. I will end up standing for the most part and moving a lot to feed trains into and remove them from the ends. My stock does not yet have auto couplers so I will have to move to do that too. My controller is 'walk about'. It featured on an entry back in 2010.

If it is going to be a feature out the front, make a REAL feature of it.

Thanks, but no thanks. Sorry to disappoint. ;)

Great blog entry Rich - good to canvas opinions on stuff like this.

I'm a bit old fashioned about these things and for me its just not working I am afraid.

One thing I have always admired about this layout is the proportions and the restraint, which allows the 'train in the landscape' feel demonstrated by some of your pics...

Hence, my worry is, it might over dominate and become 'levers in the landscape'...

But hey...Rule No. 1 applies of course ;)

Thanks Pete. I'm not sure I'm going to get away with rule No.1 here. I think that Ian sums up what I have been thinking but didn't want to admit. Others have confirmed this.

Rich,

I did notice the lever frame on Jerry's Tucking Mill at the AGM and decided that "I want one of those", and I think Jerry's siting of it is best as it is "off scene" as it were (and uses electronics to do the "controlly" bit). Obviously if you intend controlling the points and signals mechanically then siting it where you have makes a lot of sense, but I do think that unless you have a very low stool / kneel down then both you and it are going to be obtrusive :-)

 

From a number of levers point of view I think that the 10 you have should be sufficient as a few of the ones on the prototype would be to operate off-scene signals and facing point locks I would imagine (I assume that you won't be needing those to move in 2mm :-) ).

The FPLs won't move but the levers will be there forming part of the electrical interlocking. I intended to move the rest mechanically but maybe I need to look into point motors instead. I might only need four but that was a power requirement that I had not considered when I built the PSU.

I'm thinking that there is a preference for having the frame on display but outside of the boards at the front and this might be possible. I can think about it a few days more while I finish the last couple of TOUs.

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Hi Rich -

 

Thought I'd add my two penn'orth - although I  agree with the majority I'm afraid.  The levers - whilst very well presented - are extremely intrusive  on a 2mm layout.  I'm not sure I'd appreciate them on a 4mm layout either....

 

See you on Friday at Basingstoke

 

Regs

 

Ian

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Evening Rich, just caught up with this entry. I would go along with the consensus and have them off baseboard - preferably toward one end for exhibitions. On Tucking Mill the simple electrics (no electronics Ian , they are beyond me!) are connected by a fairly lengthy umbilical cord so the frame can be hung almost anywhere - front, back, middle etc.

 

The lever frames are fabulous and wonderfully tactile to use. I built mine some time before building the layout and would often sit and play with it like a set of worry beads. They are available to non-members via the S4 website

 

Jerry

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Hello Rich,

 

               sorry but I agree with the majority, I think that they are just too big to sit on the layout like that.

 

  Alex.

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Although I like to operate from the front at exhibitions I did it with the turnouts controls on a wander lead (in a small box taped to the controller) so I could move around. On the next I used DCC to control them from the handset. This gave the freedom to move around. I personally would not place such a large control element where it would intrude on the image. With a larger scale you could hide the lever frame in a building shell but in 2mm that frame will dwarf the other building.

I think your best option is to consider placing the frame at one end so it doesn't intrude too much. This will probably require electrical operation. The option of mounting it lower would require it to have been incorporated into the baseboard design including how to raise the operating linkage up to the trackwork level. Even so being in a fixed position mid point of small layout would not work so well.

Don

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The option of mounting it lower would require it to have been incorporated into the baseboard design including how to raise the operating linkage up to the trackwork level. 

 

Not so if it were outside the baseboard framing. I could make it work, however it seems the consensus is that people would rather not see it. 

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Not so if it were outside the baseboard framing. I could make it work, however it seems the consensus is that people would rather not see it. 

 

I personally would see that as an acceptable compromise - the lever frame itself IS visually stunning - just not at ground level.  The other issue  - the operator position (front/rear/end?) is somewhat predicated by your prediliction for 3-link-type couplings.  You do need to be close to the 'action' without the added encumbrance of reaching over a backscene/catching the lighting unit with your head etc!

 

I've seen many layouts operated from the front and mentally my brain seems to 'airbrush' the operator from the image...  Might say more about my thought processes than the visible impact!

 

Regs

 

Ian

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Yes, I find it too obtrusive. I think it is the positioning though as I have seen them used at the layout rear were I did not find them a problem.

 

Surely if you operate from the front you only stand in the middle when absolutely necessary, for example when uncoupling. I would have thought to have the lever frame at one end or the other would be better and make it easier to view the layout.

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I find the brain can ignore anything that is beyond the railway. The problem is because it is so prominent.

 

I'm now moving the frame up to the left hand end.

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