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drduncan

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Thanks to the conversion of my Hornby long coned boiler 28xx into a representation of 2811 in 1912-1914 condition (2811 is currently still in disgrace but may soon be upgraded to an utter pig of a job in the next couple of weeks if things go reasonably well), I have become interested in GWR tenders used in the Edwardian period - God help us. The start was the observation that 2811 did not have the tender supplied by Hornby (a Churchward 3500 gallon tender), but had a Dean 3000 gallon one instead.

 

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I had thought that sourcing a Dean 3000 gallon tender would be easy, after all one was supplied behind the Hornby (ex Mainline) Dean Goods - how wrong one can be!

 

It seems that there at least (and I stress this - at least) 4 different varients of Dean 3000 gallon tender - and thats before one gets into coal rails v coal fenders etc etc. So having found out more than any sane person would wish to know, I thought that others might find the information helpful, especially how one might portray these differences in model form.

 

It seems that the differences can be divided into:

  • Differences in the front of the tender top
  • Differences in the design of the front steps
  • Differences in the design of the water filler / dome arrangements
  • Differences between coal rails, plated coal rails, and coal fenders

Now some, understandably might be going 'So who cares? I'm happy with what the loco came with...' or words to that effect. This is an entirely acceptable, even reasonable,viewpoint. Railway modelling is a broad church and if you're happy doing your thing, then I'm very happy for you - but you might not want to read any further (this is not supposed to be a post about 'you have to enjoy your hobby the same way as me or else' type thing, but it may bore the pants off you....).

 

However, it seems to me that if you (like me) want to make a model as close to a particulalr prototype at a given period, as you can, then what the tender looks like is a important as the rest of the loco. So Dean 3000 gallon tenders...but first a note of caution: Dean 3000 gallon tenders look remarkably like Dean 2500 gallong tenders (7'6"+7'6" wheelbase on 3000s v 6'6"+6'6" on 2500s) so what you think is a 3000 gallon tender might actually be a 2500 and vice versa - deep joy all round. Anyway, I think the pictures below are of Dean 3000 gallon tenders (but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

 

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Above is a Dean 3000 gallon tender (although, given the angle it is hard to be sure it isn't a 2500 example). Note there is a cut out of the front of the tender flare. Also note the stright leading edge to the front tender steps. This is the type of tender you can get from behind a Hornby/Mainline Dean Goods. And if you don't believe me here is one:

 

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and the front of the tender in close up.

 

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Of course the Hornby/Mainline version has coal fenders, so for my forthcoming model of 2322 I've had to cut away the fenders (and the horrid moulded coal heap) and reaplce them with coal rails made from brass wire.

 

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It has to be noted, that based on photographic evidence, a curved leading edge to the front tender steps is far more common- like this one:

 

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[Also note that you can see the previous 'Great Westeern' lettering under the paint work with the GWR shirt button monogram on it! Aslo note that this tender has a seperate dome and filler, rather than the combined dome/filler usually found].

 

W & T modles do a white metal kit of this varient.

 

The other main varient of Dean 3000 gallon tender lacks the cut out to the flare at the front of the tender, and again there are differences in the front tender steps. Some have a straight leading edge....

 

blogentry-21453-0-34033000-1408221795.jpg

 

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Some had a curved leading edge...

 

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And some had a straight leading edge and straight trailing edge...

 

blogentry-21453-0-45319100-1408221772.jpg

 

And of course there is the coal fenders or coal rails issue!

 

In RTR form we have the lovely Bachmann Dean 3000 gallon tender supplied with their City class. This has the squared front end and straight leading edge to the tender front steps.

 

blogentry-21453-0-77905400-1408221823.jpg,

 

This is just the thing for 2811, but Bachmann, may the modelling gods smite them mightly, refuse to supply it as a spare (unlike Hornby; the Dean Goods tender is available as a frame and seperate tender top). Happily, while discussing this dreadful policy of Bachmann's with the Sage of Fareham, Mr Richard Butler, I pointed out that his City class for Westcliff probably had a Chruchward 3500 gallon tender in the 1920s and see, here is a photo or too. And why yes I knew where I could lay my hands on just such a 3500 gallon tender and swap it for the Dean 3000 gallon.... Richard thought about this, and then kindly agreed to the swap. [Note to Bachmann and Hornby - please stop using slighly different sized JST connectors for the tenders and please please please knock your heads togther to wire them the same way - if you aren't going to produce (the realtively few) GWR tenders with the gay abadnon that you seem to be happy doing BR,LMS or LNER ones at least make it easier for us to get the right tender behind the right loco for the right time period. Anyway I'd have thought that doing the different tender varients would have given more options to flog stuff to the collectors market, but I digress.]

 

So if you can't lay your hands on a tender from a Bachmann City class, where can you get the sqaure ended Dean 3000 gallon tender? Well there is the tneder from the Dapol City class

 

blogentry-21453-0-29646400-1408221822.jpg

 

But this is rather crude and will need lots of work to get it to an acceptable standard - but I'd love to see examples that people have worked on.

 

There is also advertised on the shapways site 3D printed 4mm scale Dean 2500 & 3000 gallon tenders with the cut out at the front of the flare and coal fenders. Now I've not seen them, so can't comment on their accuracy or build quality, but if anyone out there can add any information on this I'd be delighted to hear from them.

 

The alternative is only really etched kits and specifically the Martin Finney Dean 3000 gallon kit. It covers pretty much all the vairiations possible - just find your photo to copy. The etches look lovely, the instricutions are clear and I've yet to summon the courage to start building it. (He also does an equally good Dean 2500 gallon tender.)

 

Which brings us to the Dean 2500 gallon tender. Rather easy, really - no RTR except the Shapways 3d print already mentioned and in kit form Martin Finney's lovely work.

 

And so to the Churchward 3500 gallon tender - which I need to go behind my model of a pre 1914 43xx (exact exampe to be decided but all the pictures I have show 3500 gallon tenders). surely this should be easy, take one Mainline/Bachmann 43xx and use the tnder that comes with it. Er, no. While the variations in the 3500 gallon tenders aren't quite as widespread as with the Dean 3000 gallon there are some significant differences and once you know what you are looking for it doesn't half stand out - knowledge is a dangerous thing!

 

This is the Mainline 3500 gallon tender from its 43xx.

 

blogentry-21453-0-79000200-1408221899.jpg

 

And if you want to use it behind a loco pre 1925 here is the problem:

 

blogentry-21453-0-64042000-1408221794.jpg

 

In the mid 1920s the GWR strengthend the tender frames!

 

So perhaps a kit would do - there are lots, SE Fincast, Ks, Westward, Finney, Mitchell etc. I had a Ks 3500 gallon from an Aberdare goods kit, but it too is a 1920s varient.

 

blogentry-21453-0-32944000-1408221848.jpg

 

So I ordered a Westward 3500 gallon tender, but this was worse, it had the deep mid 1930s frames! I'm not sure what frames the SE Fincast have (but would love to find out) and given the detail of the Finney and Mitchel offerings I can't belive they don't cover all the options).

 

The frame differences can be illustrated thus:

 

blogentry-21453-0-12600800-1408277981.jpg

 

On the left (i) is the orginal narrow frames used before the mid 1920s, in the middle (ii) is the mid 20s strengthening, and on the right (iii) is the mid 30s version.

 

So I will need a narrow framed 3500 gallon tender...

 

Od course I could buy one of the Finney or Mitchel kits, but while exceptionally good, they are a bit pricey. So my current thinking is revolving around the 28xx tender frame which is available from Hornby as a spare (thank you so much Hornby, but can you do the body too?) with the top from either the mainline tender or the Westward one. I'll keep you posted as it developes.

 

One last issue - riveting. Its not clear (even in the excellent GW Study Group's articles on tenders) which 3500 gallon tenders were flush rivetted and which were not. Any help or information gratefully received!

 

 

drduncan

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Hi Drduncan,

 

Welcome to the joys of the uniform and standardised locomotive policy of the Great Western Railway!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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Yes, its bad enough with round top fireboxes, or belpaire ones! Thank heavens I dont have to worry too much about weird and wonderful bunker changes in the interwar period or the ever changing outside steam pipes minefield. Tenders in the edwardian period - easier in comparison!

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My 'gut feel' is that your first tender pic is a 2500gal - I think there are too few vertical rivet lines for 3000gal, but I don't pretend to be an expert,and it does look short between the wheels. 

 

I found this a very interesting post although, as you say, knowing more can become a pain sometimes.  It looks to me as though it might not be too difficult to file down the frames of some of the 'later' models, to represent the earlier types?

 

As someone who uses tender-drives, I'm always pleased to see well-heaped coal loads in real photos, convincing me that the need to cover a tender motor is not, actually, unrealistic :)

 

Mike

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I'm inclined to agree with Mike that the tender behind 2322 is a 2500 gallon type simply by comparing wheel diameter with wheelbase. That would certainly be quite normal for a Dean Goods, though many carried older Armstrong tenders for many years. Some 3000 gallon tenders were used, but were less common. The issue of 'rivet lines' is interesting. What we are seeing is the effect of a pattern created during cleaning. Perhaps the cleaners could see the rivets, but we can't as Dean era tenders were normally flush rivetted, in contrast with Earlier Armstrong and later Churchward types.

 

The cutout at the front of the tender flare and the curved cutout in the front steps are both early features which lasted until the end of the 1890s. Thereafter the straight flare and and straight steps appear, but not always together. At about the same time, or soon after, many new builds incorporate a widening of the running plate at the front and the handrails are curved outwards. This was to match the wider cabs that were beginning to appear on the new 4-4-0s, Krugers, Aberdares, etc. Some had raised footplates to match the higher footplates of the 4-4-0s. Dean tenders all had narrower bodies than the later Churchward types. Later, some engines were provided with flared cab side sheets to match narrower cabs with wider tenders.

 

The last of the Dean type tenders built 1902-3 show many minor transitional features. For example the sandboxes were re-positioned away from the footplate into the entrance to the coal space and a fire iron tray appears along the left hand side. These also had the round dome and separate filler cap unlike earlier ones with the all-in-one D shaped cover, or just a round filler cap on those without scoops.

 

Before I forget, one other feature that moves around. There is a good side view of 2811 in the RCTS part 9 to match your first photo. It shows the Dean tender with a transverse vacuum tank immediately behind the front wheels. A similar type is shown in figure 195 of Russell vol 2, behind No 40.

 

Nick

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You've spent some time digesting Pannier 17? I must remember to come back here when I get a little further along with my 28xx.

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Hi Mike,

 

Thanks for the post, I quite agree its likely that its a 2500 gallon tender as this was the most common type found behind Dean Goods at this time, but like you one can't be sure - but it does show all the features of an early Lot 3000 gallon, so it is still of some help I hope.  Now if anyone out there can remove the effect of being viewed at an angle I'd love to hear from them so that measurements can be accurately and easily taken I'd love to hear from them!

 

Regards

 

Duncan

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Hi Nick,

 

Thanks for the post and the useful additional information, the only caveat I'd make is that its the early Lots that are built with the cut out etc, later Lots are built without them - the photographic evidence is that some of the early Lots retained some or all of these features for many years after the later Lots and their mods came into service - a good argument for modelling from photos whenever possible!  I know this might be considered pedantic, but at the moment I've come across little information on the rebuilding of these tenders, also while widening them and raising the footplates sounds reasonable as part of the rebuild programme, I'm a bit sceptical as to why the GWR would waste money altering the cut outs to the tender flare - but then again the decision making of large organisations frequently surpasses all human comprehension and understanding so anything is possible!

 

Thanks again.

 

Duncan

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Yes, and a right good read it was too - everyone should have a look at it, but then again all GWR modellers should join the GW Study Group as their knowledge and helpfulness is brilliant.

 

Duncan

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Hi Duncan,

Thanks for the post and the useful additional information, the only caveat I'd make is that its the early Lots that are built with the cut out etc, later Lots are built without them - the photographic evidence is that some of the early Lots retained some or all of these features for many years after the later Lots and their mods came into service - a good argument for modelling from photos whenever possible!...


Yes, indeed. Looking back at what I wrote, I realise I said something quite different from what I meant. When I said the flare and step cutouts "lasted until", I should have said something like "were original build features until". As you say, they lasted very much longer than that. The information with Martin Finney's 2500 kit suggests that lot A38 of 1899-1900 was the first with straight flares, steps and widening at the front, though I don't have the equivalent information for the 3000 to hand.
 

...I know this might be considered pedantic, but at the moment I've come across little information on the rebuilding of these tenders, also while widening them and raising the footplates sounds reasonable as part of the rebuild programme, I'm a bit sceptical as to why the GWR would waste money altering the cut outs to the tender flare - but then again the decision making of large organisations frequently surpasses all human comprehension and understanding so anything is possible!


I'm not aware of any specific evidence of these changes during rebuilds and I very much doubt whether the flairs were ever altered except perhaps in the most extensive rebuilds. Most of the widened versions seem to have been built in that form.

I have noticed a few examples of the early types with flair and step cutouts where the coal rails are extended forward to form "outrigger" handrails as on the widened types. Here the plate appears to have only been extended at the very front where it meets the handrail. One example is behind 2-2-2 No 9, Victoria, in 1904 (photo in Roger Carpenter's An Edwardian Album of GW Passenger Classes, an excellent source for views of tenders, at least the front parts).

 

Nick

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks very much for this interesting post. I like the coal rails you've added to the tender for 2322.

 

I wasn't aware of the Shapeways offers. In fact there are several interesting items in that makers portofolio. I think the maker is this Alan here on Rmweb, in case you want to contact him:  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82905-alans-even-more-cambrian-thread-actual-pre-group-content-in-this-one/?p=1437791

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Hi Mike,

Thanks - it looks very interesting.  I've been looking for a way to straighten an oblique view of an ex Cornwall Minerals Railway china clay tippler to produce a scale drawing and this might do the trick.

 

D

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Hi Mikkel,

 

Thanks - glad you like the coal rails.  Thanks also for the heads up about Alan possibly being the source of the shapeways tenders.

 

D

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Telling the difference between 3000g and 2500g tenders from pictures of anything other than a direct-on sideview is very difficult, but I'm also inclined to agree the tender behind 2322 is a 2500g one.
 
Regardless of all the other detail differences in tenders, the first principle the GWR seemed to observe is that the width of the front of the tender running plate always matched that of the loco. 2322 is a narrow-plate (7'3") engine, thus the tender is a narrow running plate.
 
Later, wider-plate tenders were used with the later Dean Goods with the 7'8" footplates. For tenders paired with wider Dean Goods, the wider width of the tender running plate was usually the full length of the tender. The 4-4-0s had 8'3" footplates, and their tenders had shaped pieces on the running plate at the front to match, or were full width over their length (as in the case of the preserved CoT). The 4-4-0s and Aberdares had outrigger handrails, the Dean Goods did not. A discussion on this, with some picture references, was had on Wenlock's tender blog.
 
I'm inclined to think the cutout at the top of the tender flare front was introduced to ease the handrail grip space for the 'inline' (non-outrigger) handrails.

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I put it there because the editor won't let me use illustrations in a reply to a blog post

 

It can be done, but I think only if the image is in one's 'gallery', which can be accessed, in a blog comment reply, via 'My Media'.

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Miss Prism,

 

There are some excellent photos in the post you linked to - many thanks.  Lots of inspiration for tackling the Dean Goods (its in the queue behind 2811, 788, the 43xx and possibly 2012 saddle tank and 3031 if I can find a GA drawing for the 2021 (rather than the less the helpful weight diagrams in the Russell book) and the frame diagram for the 3031!  York is far to far to drop by to do some hands on research :(

So the Dean Goods might move up the batting order.

 

D

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...I'm inclined to think the cutout at the top of the tender flare front was introduced to ease the handrail grip space for the 'inline' (non-outrigger) handrails.

 

I don't think so, it was the norm on tenders built before about 1888/9 which have coal rails curved down to meet the top of the flare well behind the 'cutout'. All of these had simple vertical handrails at the front of the side sheed. The types where the coal rail is continued forward and bent down to form the vertical handrail, whether inline or outrigger,  are mostly the later types without the cutout, though there are a few examples, e.g. the tender behind No 9 Victoria as I mentioned earlier.

 

On the other hand, it does appear from some photos that the cutout may provide more clearance around the handbrake and scoop handles.

 

Nick

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And it looks very nice too, Mike. Now we just need some images of a painted and lettered 2500 gal tender from the shapeways 3d stable!

Duncan

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