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The Four Ages of Warships – Bachmann Types


Silver Sidelines

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The arrival of Bachmann’s new Class 43 Warship Pegasus has encouraged me to revisit my fleet of Bachmann Warships. I have counted four distinct variants of the Bachmann Warship: the early 'low' version, the corrected version, the lighted version and now the latest Class 43. I don't count Kader’s early Mainline models as being Bachmann, although they have a place in this narrative.

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Four ages of Bachmann Warship, left to right, Onslaught, Glory, Zenith and Pegasus

 

First some history, Kader Industries introduced their first Warship under the Mainline label I think in the late 1970s. I certainly bought a couple in the early 1980s, now long since sold at auction. The Mainline models had a good shape and came with directional lighting. When Kader rebranded their UK models under the Bachmann label the body shell from the Mainline Warship was reused (with different fixings) right up until the introduction of the Bachmann Class 43 in 2015. The Mainline chassis had a ‘plastic’ mechanism and to counter the lack of weight rubber tyres were fitted to the wheels on the motor bogie. The plastic drive gears had a habit of cracking where they had been force fitted to the axles. Ultrascale still sell nice brass replacement gears. With brass gears and some additional weight the model was nearly very good as can be seen at the end of

.

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Mainline Warship chassis

 

Bachmann reintroduced the Warship I would guess during the mid 1990s with a much improved chassis and motor, not forgetting the sprung buffers. It would be 2008 before directional lighting reappeared. Among the first Bachmann branded models were Foxhound, Onslaught and Eclipse (32-050, 051 and 052 respectively). The first production runs of these models were deemed to be too low. That is the body and buffers were some 1 to 2mm lower than they should have been. This is evident in the view below comparing the latest Bachmann model of Pegasus with Onslaught (as bought new).

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Bachmann Pegasus (left) Onslaught (right) as bought

 

A contemporary fix by Keith Norgrove shows how to grind away part of the chassis and insert some plastic spacers to correct the error.

For their part Bachmann corrected the error in subsequent models such as Glory (32-059) by raising the height of the pivot point on the Bogie Towers. I don’t know how quickly these modified towers were introduced or whether any were fitted to later batches of the first models. Both Foxhound and Onslaught arrived on my layout too low. However I have a model of Eclipse (bought second hand) which was advertised and looks unused, which arrived with the correct height towers. Perhaps it was only the very first production batches that had the error and subsequent models were issued with corrected towers?

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Bachmann Class 42 Towers - original right, later models left

 

Rather than grind away bits of chassis and manufacture plastic spacers I opted to source a couple of replacement towers for Onslaught.

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Bachmann Pegasus (left) Onslaught (right) with new bogie towers.

 

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Bachmann Class 42 Onslaught, ride height corrected with replacement towers

 

When first introduced the Bachmann Warships were admired for their smooth running and super haulage capacity. They had a heavy metal chassis fitted with a big ‘can’ motor and they made a reassuring clunking noise as the heavy mechanism crossed rail joints.

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Bachmann Class 42 Chassis (Foxhound/Eclipse/Onslaught/Glory)

 

Around 2008 Bachmann upgraded the Class 42 Warship. The earlier model was reworked to include cab/indicator lights and a socket was provided to aid the installation of a Digital Chip.

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Bachmann Class 42 Zenith

 

The original and the reworked models share the same body shell. However if you compare the spacing of the top cab steps on ‘Zenith’ with the earlier picture here of ‘Onslaught’ it seems to me that the ride height of the reworked model is too high. I suspect that this is because of the spring contacts and circuit boards introduced as part of the lighting set up is preventing the body shell sitting tight on the underframe.

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Bachmann Class 42 Chassis (Hermes/Zenith/Magpie)

 

The original and reworked models shared the same design of bogie / tower. However that is where the similarity ended. As shown below there were significant detail differences in the way that the towers were attached.

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Clip on Bogie Fixing Bachmann Class 42 (Eclipse/Onslaught/Glory)

 

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Screw on Bogie Fixing Bachmann Class 42 (Hermes/Zenith/Magpie)

 

Superficially the ‘can’ motors were the same. However there are detail differences between the two motors, notably at the opposite end to the brushes, such that when swapping motors between models it is necessary to also swap the black plastic motor cradle. From my own experience I would say that the motors on some of the reworked models were inferior in performance to those in the original models. I have had to replace two motors that I would say ran slow and overheated.

 

The overheating issue is interesting and has filled in many happy hours. The picture shown here above comparing the original (low) bogie tower with the modified bogie tower has differences in the shape of the axle holes. The original towers had an axle hole / bearing shaped to match the axle. Running was generally excellent. The modified bogie simply has machined slots for the axles. If these machined slots were made too deep the drive axle is no longer carried by the metal bogie side frames and instead the whole weight of the engine is carried by the nylon gearing. My observations suggest that carrying the weight on the gears increases the friction in the gearing leading to slow running and overheating, not to mention ‘wobbly’ running. (I do believe that Heljan ‘Lion’ has the same problem.) I did make a couple of spacers / bearings to clip to the metal side frames and pack the space between above the axle but it just seemed to slow the motor even more so it was abandoned.

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Axle spacers/bearings

 

I am not sure if there is a ‘fix’ and I resorted to swapping gears and wheel sets to obtain the optimum solution, coupled with many hours of ours of ‘running in’ using the ‘Loco Tester’. ‘Zenith’, bought second hand ran perfectly. ‘Hermes’, bought brand new was a problem, eventually only solved by fitting replacement towers and a different motor.

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Bachmann Class 42 Hermes

 

Because Bachmann’s Class 42 Warships have been around for some time I suspect the arrival of the Bachmann model of the Class 43 has not been given the prominence that other new releases have received. A pity I think, as it is a superb model which could teach a few other manufacturers a trick or two. Mine runs ever so quietly and is also rock steady. There are numerous clever touches, for example the casting of the engine/transmission visible through the side windows and the ‘yellow’ tint to the running lights.

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Bachmann Class 43 Pegasus

 

I have added a view of the chassis. This too has been re-engineered and is a work of art in itself. I have not investigated further but I can see very little that would be interchangeable with previous models. The space for scale cab interiors and a sound speaker does come at a price and the Class 43 weighs 70gm less than the Class 42. Time will tell as to whether this is important or whether it will be an excuse for double heading.

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Bachmann Class 43 Chassis

 

The only question remaining is, "When will Bachmann introduce a new Class 42 based on the tooling for the Class 43?"

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A very informative piece Ray - I wondered what you'd been up to when I saw the photos on Flickr!

 

I have three of the early "low" versions in different colour schemes and have been contemplating the Keith Norgrove mods for a while, this is still on the "to do" list however. I'm interested that you managed to source replacement towers, presumably from Bachmann, and this is probably a simpler and better solution, although your reservations about the axle bearing shape are a concern. 

 

It did occur to me that the Mainline examples with similar body moulding, but relieved of motors, could be used as dummies for double heading, but I've yet to try this.

 

Best wishes,

 

John.

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Thanks John

 

I read your posts on the Class 43 thread whilst researching my Blog.  I hoped that you might find the topic of interest.  I am sure that the use of unpowered Mainline locos has been advocated before.  I would be wanting to get rid of the rubber tyres.

 

Sourcing new towers is not straightforward.  In the past they were available from Bachmann but that avenue could well have dried up since they are not used for the current model.

 

Speak again

 

Ray

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Thanks Steve

...... Lovely to see a line-up of four Warships too - yummy!

Some of them even sound the part and that without a digital chip or loudspeaker.

 

Speak again

 

Ray

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  • RMweb Gold

A good read, Ray. I do like how you carefully upgrade and work on your locos when they have an "issue", rather than just discarding them.

 

Unusual for an RTR loco to be sitting too low, usually it's the other way round!

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Hello Mikkel

...Unusual for an RTR loco to be sitting too low, usually it's the other way round!

A bit of history really but there is still a steady stream of questions from potential buyers of secondhand models.  It says something for the appeal and durability of the Bachmann Warship.

 

Speak again

 

Ray

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Wow, this is a very informatve & helpful posting by Silver Sidelines. I have two of the later Class 42 Warship chassis, one bought complete as D809 Champion, it's been a real pain to fit sound, however by attaching the speaker wires to the feet of the 21 pin decoder adapter (two pins immediately next to the blank indexing space) I have got sound working using a You Choos supplied Zimo MX64 decoder and two 5mm deep sugar cube speakers, quiet at first but altering the volume to 85% is acceptable.

 

The other chassis was a blue one bought complete 5-6 years ago, this was to replace an old Mainline chassis. I painted the visible part of the chassis green to match my mainline body and it worked fine, in fact for 5 years the body was held in place by slightly wet paint. Previously, I too had removed the mainline motor and ran it as a dummy with the other Bachmann Warship.

 

Six years later I'm wanting lights & sound in most of my models. To this end I purchased a Bachmann body from e-bay, thinking of proper attachment to chassis and lights. It was D800 Sir Brian Robertson, I was a little put out by the fact that it wasn't the same internally as my Maroon D809. Ho hum, I suppose I'll have to resort to hard wiring, strip board and LEDs with resistors. I wish I'd found this most informative posting previously..................it'd have saved my purchasing a body that's little better that the Mainline one.

 

IMG_4048.jpeg

Edited by Eveannessant
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Interesting to read this latest post.

 

Last week I acquired a "Glory" off ebay, a bit dusty and dirty but basically sound. I decided to do a complete strip down to give a good clean as well as check the lubrication in the gear towers. It's the first time I've dismantled the gear towers, and what an excellent piece of work they are, being cast metal with properly tapped screws to secure. I can't think of any other modern diesel model with this feature, all including Heljan being clip together plastic that one fears may snap in taking apart. My "Glory" has the second type of bogie tower securing clip, it still clips but with a screw fitting for good measure as shown in Ray's photo above.

 

Anyhow, the loco is now back together, cleaned and re-lubricated, and goes like a bomb! I'm planning to cut the front to install the fittings to make it one of the first thirteen, built without headcode panels. This using a Craftsman conversion set I let upon at a Toyfair some while ago - for £5 it would have been rude not to make the purchase!

 

I've also noted that the Class 43 Warships seem not to attract too much attention these days, and can be acquired for £70 - £80 off ebay in mint condition. I think they're great as well, although the lifting links on the roof are not a lot of fun to attach!

 

Best wishes,

 

John.

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2 hours ago, Eveannessant said:

..... I wish I'd found this most informative posting previously..................it'd have saved my purchasing a body that's little better that the Mainline one.

 

 

Thank you Eveannessant - there are a lot of bits from Sir Brian for sale because this was one of the Mazac models.

 

Some of the of the Mainline mouldings have done very well living on with perhaps newer sprung buffers attached.  I like the idea of adding sound - not sure about the need for cab lights. 

 

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

I

Anyhow, the loco is now back together, cleaned and re-lubricated, and goes like a bomb!

 

 

Thank you also John.  Much earlier in the year I picked up Glory off eBay for next to nothing and almost better than new.  As you say lots of tractive effort. I was going to use it for spares but it seems too good!

 

Regards  Ray

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Does anybody have a definitive list of the models that had lighting or without lighting, and ride height variations, this would aid buying of items from flea-bay.

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4 hours ago, Eveannessant said:

Does anybody have a definitive list of the models that had lighting or without lighting, and ride height variations, this would aid buying of items from flea-bay.

 

I am not sure how a list of ride height variations would help.  Foxhound and Eclipse were too low BUT when I bought Eclipise on EBay somebody had already changed the chassis so that the ride height was correct.  Twenty years on since production I doubt that many sellers would know ride height details.

 

Ray

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I've altered the speakers and their location is now underneath the PCB, between the flywheels and drive towers. I've also changed the speakers for 8mm deep Ice Cubes, again from You Choos. These produce a much better sound than the 5mm deep Sugar Cubes. Next I managed to get hold of "The Royal Naval Reserve" body in blue, and ransacked the cab and directional lighting boards for my green D800 Sir Brian Robertson, which in turn has been given a new identity as D832 Onslaught, transfers and etched plates from Fox Transfers. Both D809 and D832 now have identical sound eqt.. Photo shows speaker location on the underside of the PCB, however speaker wires have since been lengthened and run on top of the PCB to avoid any slight possibility of being damaged by the flywheels. Speakers attached with 'black tack".

 

 

 

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Edited by Eveannessant
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4 hours ago, Eveannessant said:

I've altered the speakers and their location is now underneath the PCB, between the flywheels and drive towers. ......

IMG_4083.jpeg

 

 

I like your solution.  You must think that the BluTack provides sufficient adhesion and doesn't compromise the sound.

 

I modified a Bachmann Deltic to fit upwards pointing speakers in the fuel tanks - firing the sound up into the space for the flywheels and drive shafts.  Relatively straightforward and I thought worked well.

 

Cheers Ray

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Hi Ray,

 

No I don't think that sound has been compromised, it's not really possible to mount the speakers under the chassis in fuel tanks on the Warships. Space to mount speakers is very limited.

 

I haven't used BluTack, Black Tack has much more adhesion, if I was really worried I'd have used a structural MMA (Methyl Methacrylate Adhesive) such as Bondrite S1500. Anyway you can see the roll of black tack in the first photo, it can be a bit of a pain to cut some off the roll, and the backing paper. I got my roll from You Choos.

 

Going back to your photo's of the class 43 chassis, it's struck me that the class 42 bodies might well fit, maybe after altering the under body in the cab footstep areas. I don't have a need to do this, but I'd be interested to know if anyone has done it or not. Is the Class 43 body any different to the class 42, with respect to grills and exhausts etc? If it's the same , a simple identity change might be a much more sensible option.

 

Cheers,

 

Eve

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19 hours ago, Eveannessant said:

Going back to your photo's of the class 43 chassis, it's struck me that the class 42 bodies might well fit, maybe after altering the under body in the cab footstep areas. I don't have a need to do this, but I'd be interested to know if anyone has done it or not. Is the Class 43 body any different to the class 42, with respect to grills and exhausts etc? If it's the same , a simple identity change might be a much more sensible option.

 

 

You have been busy and thank you for sharing useful information.  My Warships are out sight just now so I cannot immediately say whether the 42 and 43 bodies are interchangeable.  I might guess that they are.

 

Cheers Ray

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On 09/11/2020 at 19:58, Silver Sidelines said:

 

You have been busy and thank you for sharing useful information.  My Warships are out sight just now so I cannot immediately say whether the 42 and 43 bodies are interchangeable.  I might guess that they are.

 

Cheers Ray

 

Hi Ray,

 

Have you tried mounting the 42 body on a 43 chassis yet? 

 

Chris P

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5 hours ago, Tankerman said:

 

Hi Ray,

 

Have you tried mounting the 42 body on a 43 chassis yet? 

 

Chris P

 

Sorry Chris have been busy playing with Black Fives an update later perhaps.

 

Regards  Ray

Edited by Silver Sidelines
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Roof detail differs between the prototype Class 42 and 43s, for example the exhaust ports are in a different place on the real thing.  There are others. 

 

What I notice looking at the two models are changes to the front fairing - there is no panel join on the 43, and on the 42 there's a noticeable seam along the solebar bodywork that intersects with the sandbox filler hatches.  Are the real things different in these aspects?

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29 minutes ago, Silver Sidelines said:

 

Sorry Chris have been busy playing with Black Fives an update later perhaps.

 

Regards  Ray

 

That's got to be better than trying to fit the body of an much older model on to a newer chassis.

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5 hours ago, Tankerman said:

 

That's got to be better than trying to fit the body of an much older model on to a newer chassis.

 

Ah yes - but they are Hornby.

 

Perhaps some answers:

 

I have taken the hint and put together some images.

 

The following pictures should tell their own story.  First Sir Brian Robertson, Class 42, D800 one of the original Bachmann models.  This is followed by Roebuck, Class 43, D841 one of the latest models.

 

Ignoring the position of body fixing screws Sir Brian fits nicely on top of the chassis from Roebuck – with one caveat.  The chassis from Roebuck has a lump of metal beneath the cab and seating in Roebuck has been altered to fit.  The seating unit from Sir Brian is deeper and would need to be trimmed to match the unit in Roebuck.  There are other scenarios – just swap the seating units (and the lighting units).

 

Food for thought?

 

Cheers Ray

 

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The pictures below highlight the fact that the seating unit in Sir Brian is too deep to allow the shell to sit down on to the Roebuck chassis.

 

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Edited by Silver Sidelines
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  • RMweb Gold

Hi Ray,

 

Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to try the body swap for me, it is indeed food for thought.

 

I've only recently decided to get back into railway modelling after life got in the way quite a few years ago. It was triggered in the first instance by finding an unused Class 22 in a cupboard, I then  found a Class 42 Warship which I remembered was a poor runner and a Class 43 which I bought on a whim a few years ago. Hence my question as to the possibility of buying a second Class 43 and mounting the Class 42 body on it.

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12 hours ago, Tankerman said:

 I then  found a Class 42 Warship which I remembered was a poor runner and a Class 43 which I bought on a whim a few years ago. Hence my question as to the possibility of buying a second Class 43 and mounting the Class 42 body on it.

 

Models such as Glory are cheap and generally good runners.  The first Bachmann Warships sit too low on the chassis Eclipse comes to mind.  I think there was a dimensional error with the chassis itself.  The second generation such as Hermes seem to me to have a problem with gears / wheels.  If my memory serves me correctly I have had models where the gears on the wheel sets seem to be too big - might Bachmann have cut the axle slots in the bogie castings too deep?  Fitting an old body to the latest chassis would make an interesting exercise.

 

Cheers Ray

Edited by Silver Sidelines
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Thanks Ray and Chris for continuing this thread, it is indeed food for thought.

 

Oh & by the way, on the class 42's I found that by removing some of the plastic lumps opposite the attachment lugs on the inside of the body, the body will sit down on the chassis better so that the issue with the cab steps is dealt with.

 

Cheers,

 

Eve

Edited by Eveannessant
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On 16/09/2020 at 15:30, Eveannessant said:

Does anybody have a definitive list of the models that had lighting or without lighting, and ride height variations, this would aid buying of items from flea-bay.

 

An interesting read.

 

This is my list of Cl 42s produced so far, with what I've gleaned. Strictly the bodyshell is only suitable for D813-817, 819-829 and 831. The rest I've marked as inauthentic - but could of course be renumbered. Hopefully the other columns are self-explanatory.

 

image.png.760618a589d98ef74fc469aadb6a3622.png32050

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, stovepipe said:

 

This is my list of Cl 42s produced so far, with what I've gleaned. Strictly the bodyshell is only suitable for D813-817, 819-829 and 831. The rest I've marked as inauthentic - but could of course be renumbered. Hopefully the other columns are self-explanatory.

 

 

Thank you Stove Pipe a good list.  I do wonder about the models listed as being too low.  I have come across numerous all be them being second hand which were not too low.  I do wonder whether Bachmann corrected the problem during production?

 

Cheers Ray

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