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Red Wagons - Experimental Archaeology - update


MikeOxon

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EDIT - before getting excited about this 'new evidence', please see the reply from K14 at Didcot GWS, below. The 'red wagon' mystery continues....

 

This is just a brief addition, to draw attention to new evidence regarding 'red' GWR wagons. I am grateful to Miss Prism, who referred to it in Mikkel's Pre-Grouping thread.

 

This new information adds further support to one of the conclusions, in the discussion following my previous blog entry, that red lead may have started to be used on the GWR as a preservative on iron wagons and then continued as a 'tradition' on later stock. It also indicates that the use of red extended to the underframes of wagons.

 

I hope that analysis of the paint is to be carried out (or in progress), to confirm the composition and hopefully to indicate whether these new finds are indeed the original paint applied to this wagon.

 

Mike

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  • RMweb Gold

One would really need to find red lead applied over red lead to indicate it was used as a top coat and not just a primer.

Don

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  • RMweb Gold

This certainly is a very interesting find. As you say Mike it does confirm your theory and the discussions on here, if correct. 

 

I agree that there could be several explanations, but it does strike me that this method seems a good option for exploring it further - ie digging into the paint layers on old wagons. I wonder if there are other obvious candidates for doing this? 

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Thank you, Mikkel.  I also think Donw has a good point, since red lead is often used as a rust-protection undercoat and could be the result of some preservation work.  I'll await the results of more research with considerable interest.

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  • RMweb Gold

I was just looking through this: http://www.uksteam.info/gwr/wagons.htm

 

Some of the preserved wagons were special vehicles and so perhaps not the best examples for livery archaeology, but the V5 on the West Somerset Railway could be interesting, with a build date in 1901.

 

Some others, such as the O5(?) of 1890 on the SVR could also give some clues, though not about the livery change date.

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Sadly, it ain't so. 11152 was subject to a pretty comprehensive repair at Didcot in the late 80s, so was 'bare metalled'.

Work done included:-

Cutting off 12-18" of the roof at the eaves & welding/riveting new 1/4" plate,
Chopping approx 2 feet off the bottom of the ends & scrapping most of the bodyside panels then welding/riveting in new plate (actually 16 swg coach tin as that was all that was available - tap it & it goes 'boing'),
New doors, and,
Replacing the floor with 3" of concrete so it could be used for oily greasy things like crane bits.

The underframe was thoroughly needle-gunned too.

Paint spec back then was (IIRC):
1 coat 'Manders' Red Oxide
1-2 coats grey undercoat
2 topcoats (Blue)
Signwriting - 'Salvage Save For Victory' & bogus number 47305
Chassis - 1 coat extra thick B.R. spec 'Chassis' black.

In the late 90s it was repainted into FS Grey with 25" GW, & repainted again c.2013 still in FSG but with the smaller 'G.W.R' branding.

As to the wheels... the odds of 11152 retaining its original wheelsets/boxes/brasses/springs are so tiny they're probably quantum. That said, one of my early tasks at Didcot was to re-instate the brake rigging on Tevan 79933 & repaint the underframe while I was at it. One of the wheelsets has a tyre date of (I think) 1917 & cleaning up in the roots of the spokes with an angle grinder revealed that the Factory method of painting wheels was a coat (or two) of Red Lead followed by a generous application of hot tar. The inner sections of underframe seemed to have been toshed over with Red Lead & then ignored for 70 years.

Likely candidates for survival? Not many I fear. Doubtless there are other contenders out there, but most will have had any original paint restored out of existence a long while ago. Look for examples with getting on for 1/4" of paint on them & you *might* get lucky.

Fruit 47886/2356 (1892) is a maybe as I'm not certain if the underframe has ever been stripped right back. Even if it hasn't, it'll have to keep until it next gets scheduled for attention (whenever that might be). I suspect that the Mites 32337/8 may harbour information, but there are a lot of Chatham Dockyard mods on them, so I'm not holding my breath.

Pete S.
C&W Dept.,
GWS Didcot.

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Many thanks for this comprehensive reply K14.  It also provides an insight into the sort of treatment that 'preserved' vehicles may have received.  I recall meeting you at a Didcot Steam Day and admiring your beautiful work on one of the restored carriages.

 

I've added a brief note at the top of my entry to damp down further expectations on this 'evidence'.

 

Mike

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  • RMweb Gold

Long live the red wagon mystery! Wouldn't it be boring if we knew the whole story.

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Reading K14s comments, could it be that the whole wagon (body and underframe) was coated in red lead and then tar applied to the metalwork (i.e frames as well as the wheels)? I appreciate that the postcard I mentioned may not be definitive evidence but whoever coloured it saw red and grey wagons (which fits with the period the original photo was taken) and the red wagons are clearly shown as having black underframes. I would guess too that the tar would have worn off with wear exposing the red lead underneath which may lead to further confusion. However wouldn't this hypothesis fit all the various theories mentioned here?

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I note that K14 only referred to the wheels being coated with tar.  I have not seen any reference to underframes being anything other than painted.  I was, however, reminded of the comment attributed to Churchward, regarding carriage colours, that he didn't mind if they were covered in tar outside, as long as they were comfortable inside.

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