The Farthing layouts

A brake 3rd for the servants and their luggage and maybe another item of npcs for the family’s luggage as well?

3 hours ago, Dave John said:

Interesting thoughts about the affluent travelling with their entourage , so I had a go at running a special on that basis. Let's imagine a train booked from the south to someones  highland estates. A carriage, accommodation for horses and grooms and travelling space for the family. All dual braked for LNWR/CR running. The coach would ideally be a D57 family saloon rather than a compartment first. A bit of fun but maybe I'll build one and get it right one day. 

 

 

Lovely train Dave! Did the CR have particular rules regarding where in the train a carriage truck would go? 

 

3 hours ago, Regularity said:

A brake 3rd for the servants and their luggage and maybe another item of npcs for the family’s luggage as well?

 

Hmm, I'm tempted to have a go at this now. Maybe I can sneak in a running session tomorrow 

Very often npcs were at the head of the train Mikkel. Certainly no vehicles which were not fitted with automatic brakes would be after the guards brake at the end of the train. 

 

There is a chapter on the subject in "Operating the Caledonian" by Jim Summers. It becomes complicated in that trains would be marshalled so that vehicles which needed to be detached during the journey could be accessed easily. 

Is it likely that such a train was not initially marshalled with the carriage truck but rather that was collected at a station en route.  The train engine would have had been detached to enter the yard or bay to pick it up hence the carriage truck being next the engine.  It's easier to do that than reverse a whole train into a siding.  Also IIRC, carriage trucks were mainly end loading so could not be delivered with stock between them and the offloading facility.  Makes for interesting movements at a small country station.

 

Whilst on the subject, the land for the station that I model, was acquired from the Rodney family the then inhabitants of Berrington Hall.  A condition of the sale was that the station was provided for their use and Lord and Lady had their own waiting room in the station building for their exclusive use.  I rather fancy that the cattle/loading dock was also built for their own use for horse traffic movements.  Again, I also assume the hunt might have come and gone by train in those days.

 

The Working Timetable would designate to which trains such vehicles could NOT be attached.  But I seem to recall that the most highest levels of society in those days had the power to stop any train, even expresses, to pick up their horse box particularly if the line crossed their land.

On 25/10/2019 at 16:37, Dave John said:

Interesting thoughts about the affluent travelling with their entourage , so I had a go at running a special on that basis. 

 

Inspired by that, I had a play. Not quite as elegant as Dave's train though. For one thing I don't have a carriage truck yet. In addition to the two horseboxes and R1 First, I added a dia V5 for the luggage as per @Regularity's suggestion. I would have coupled up a brake third for the staff too, except my current traverser is too short!

 

[click to enlarge]

 

Anyway, his Lordship’s party have arrived at Farthing to join the annual hunt. The participants have alighted and are sharing a few bubbles in the Stationmaster’s office. The porters have gone off to a Union meeting. Everyone has forgotten about the servants, still cooped up in the groom’s compartments and barely conscious from the lack of oxygen.

 

 

 

Eventually the horseboxes are shunted into the horse dock for unloading. A Saloon Third sulks in the sidings, rejected from both the train and the union meeting.

 

 

 

Incidentally, the lined horsebox is due for a repaint at some point, to do away with the lining (as per @Miss Prism's earlier comment) and backdate it.  It was purchased secondhand in an unguarded moment, and has Larry G’s ’signature’ underneath. The livery is perhaps a client’s request.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Mikkel

Seems a shame to feel the need to repaint to remove that lining, and I wish we knew a little bit more on whether and how much horse boxes were lined pre-WWI, but we just don't have enough photographic evidence one way or the other.

 

A similar question mark concerns black or brown ironwork. B&W emulsions are generally not able to distinguish the difference even if they were differences present.

 

 

 

Several years ago, I created a 'special' for the local lord of the manor at North Leigh - see:

Following some discussion, I think the consensus was that the horse box and carriage truck should be at one end or the other, so that they could be detached and unloaded easily.  I think it looks 'sensible' with the horse box at the front and the PBV at the back.  Unfortunately, I've never seen an illustration of a 'real' private train like this one.

11 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Seems a shame to feel the need to repaint to remove that lining, and I wish we knew a little bit more on whether and how much horse boxes were lined pre-WWI, but we just don't have enough photographic evidence one way or the other.

 

A similar question mark concerns black or brown ironwork. B&W emulsions are generally not able to distinguish the difference even if they were differences present.

 

I agree about the uncertainty, but I think this particular horsebox is a bit too bright and shiny for my tastes anyway. There is also the matter of the lettering. I'm sure Larry will forgive me 

 

 

1 hour ago, MikeOxon said:

I think the consensus was that the horse box and carriage truck should be at one end or the other, so that they could be detached and unloaded easily.  I think it looks 'sensible' with the horse box at the front and the PBV at the back.  Unfortunately, I've never seen an illustration of a 'real' private train like this one.

 

Good to see Sir John's special again!  In fact, specials could be the subject of a whole  thread over in the forum.  

 

Regarding horseboxes, I think it's time for me to re-read John Lewis' series in GWRJ. IIIRC he says something about the position of horseboxes in a train.

I recall that cattle wagons were to be marshalled next to the loco, but presumably because if not, they’d suffer from the effects of being loose coupled, given that they would run in goods trains.  

 

I guess this would not be an issue with a train of passenger stock, so you could probably put the ‘orse wherever was convenient to load, unload, remove from train, etc.  

 

Not in the middle, I assume!

 

atb

Simon

Most cattle wagons were fitted so would have been near the engine with a fitted head or in a complete cattle train.

 

To elaborate on my previous reply on horse traffic, if you intended to travel with your horse, you would likely need to order a horse box to your local station a couple of days beforehand.  I do not think a train arrived with a horse box marshalled somewhere therein and you put your horse into that, though no doubt this did happen.  So under the first scenario, the train engine would have to collect the loaded horse box from whatever siding or bay it was left.  This is why most horse boxes ended up next to the engine.  Also at the other end of the train the horse would be more likely to be thrown around even with passenger stock.

 

My memory of this comes from the LNWR/GWR joint handbook which IIRC stated that all horse boxes on the Shrewsbury section ordered would be GWR and on the Birkenhead LNWR.  I will look and see what the arrangements were.

 

Obviously at large termini arrangements could have been different but most of us do not model large termini.

There is a pic, possibly in one of the early Dick Riley 'Great Western Album' series, of a crimson-lake express coming out of Paddington. In between the Toplight sets is a horsebox.

 

My guess is that the train will be divided somewhere on route.

 

28 minutes ago, Brassey said:

Most cattle wagons were fitted so would have been near the engine with a fitted head or in a complete cattle train.

Not in this era!

They were still largely unfitted, but were often fitted with screw couplings to reduce the impact of coupling snatch.

As my namesake says, they would be marshalled as close to front of the train as possible - but unfitted cattle wagons would be marshalled immediately behind a fitted head if there was one. (Again, fairly unlikely in this era. Most fitted wagons were for use on passenger trains.)

That all applies when loaded. When empty, they can go anywhere that suits the local needs for ease of shunting the train.

 

GWRJ No. 5 has a short article by John Copsey on Horsebox movements. On page 193 he says:

 

”Boxes were largely attached to the rear of through trains, which was a convenient position from a marshalling point of view, and also the preferred position detailed in the regulations for running four-wheeled vehicles in passenger trains. However, if this position was impractical from a traffic viewpoint, the vehicles would be placed next to the engine”

 

GWRJs No. 76, 78, 79, 81, 82 features a series by John Lewis on horseboxes. The first of these discusses their uses and regulations, the rest deal with the diagrams. In No. 76 page 221 he describes at some length the GWR's growing concerns with the use of small vehicles mixed with other stock. Discussing the 1919 regulations, he says:

 

”On those trains formed of bogie vehicles, where small vehicles could be attached, then the small vehicle had to be positioned next to the engine or behind the last bogie vehicle. A slip portion could not be run behind a small vehicle of less than 10ft wheelbase. A small vehicle could be positioned anywhere on trains containing only 4- and 6- wheel stock.”

 

None of the photos which illustrate these articles actually shows a horsebox at the rear of a train, those that show running trains feature them at the front (with one exception, see below). As Brassey mentioned earlier, this could at least in some cases be because it was easier for the loco to pick up horseboxes en route and back onto the remaining train.

 

Incidentally, John Lewis also shows a photo in GWRJ 76 where everything is "wrong". Taken at Hereford Barr's court at some time between 1897-1902, it features a horsebox in the middle of an express train, surrounded by bogie clerestory coaches!

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Mikkel

Volume 2 of the wonderful GW Branch line modelling by Stephen Williams has a photo (P94-95) of a train on the DNS consisting of a Duke, 3 horseboxes, 3 Clerestories and a van. The boxes are at the front of the train. One of my favourite photos and oh so modellable!

 

Craig W

 

 

On 28/10/2019 at 23:51, Mikkel said:

......Incidentally, the lined horsebox is due for a repaint at some point, to do away with the lining (as per @Miss Prism's earlier comment) and backdate it.  It was purchased secondhand in an unguarded moment, and has Larry G’s ’signature’ underneath. The livery is perhaps a client’s request.

 

Perhaps you could apply some light weathering to tone down the very bright lining.  I should be reluctant to destroy a 'work of art'

 

More importantly, I feel that His Lordship would not be pleased if you made his special horsebox look 'common'

As Mikkel notes, new 25" lettering will be required in any case.

 

All photos/images I have of Cambrian trains with horseboxes have the horseboxes marshalled just behind the engine.  4 and six wheeled stock was the norm on the Cambrian.

9 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

Perhaps you could apply some light weathering to tone down the very bright lining.  I should be reluctant to destroy a 'work of art'

 

More importantly, I feel that His Lordship would not be pleased if you made his special horsebox look 'common'

 

Comrade, such romantic notions can never stand in the way of the people! The horsebox must conform!   Plus, there's a plan...

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Craigw said:

Volume 2 of the wonderful GW Branch line modelling by Stephen Williams has a photo (P94-95) of a train on the DNS consisting of a Duke, 3 horseboxes, 3 Clerestories and a van. The boxes are at the front of the train. One of my favourite photos and oh so modellable!

 

Craig W

 

Yes, it's a wonderful photo, it was the first time I encountered the DN&SR. There were some superb trains on that line over the years. 

 

Speaking of Newbury, I had a look in Paul Karau's books on the Lambourn line which had a lot of horse traffic. All photos showing horseboxes have them next to the loco. My bay platform layout draws on the Newbury end of that line, and I can see how the hroseboxes would logically end up with the loco when preparing a train. 

 

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

All photos/images I have of Cambrian trains with horseboxes have the horseboxes marshalled just behind the engine.  4 and six wheeled stock was the norm on the Cambrian.

 

Very interesting Chris. I wonder if that was a result of the same shunting processes discussed above, or an actual rule on the Cambrian?

"Very interesting Chris. I wonder if that was a result of the same shunting processes discussed above, or an actual rule on the Cambrian?"

 

Mikkel,

I do not know but I am trying t find out.

Thanks Chris. Meanwhile I am hunting for photos of horseboxes at the rear of a train. Other than the famous railcar-hauled horseboxes of the Lambourn branch, I haven't found any yet.

On 31/10/2019 at 04:46, Mikkel said:

Thanks Chris. Meanwhile I am hunting for photos of horseboxes at the rear of a train. Other than the famous railcar-hauled horseboxes of the Lambourn branch, I haven't found any yet.

 

Mikkel,

Page 70 Great Western Railway Journal  Spring 2010 No 74 there is a picture of a 517 on a train 'with tail traffic,(? horsebox)'.  It could actually be anything. 

 

What the article definitely proves is that 517s did not reach the Ruabon- Dolgelley Line until probably 1901 and then they went up to Blaneau from Bala.  So no 517 at Traeth Mawr.  I will have to wait until I build Maidenhead.

Mikkel,

I have just been told there is nothing in the Cambrian rules about where horse boxes should go in a train.

Thanks very much Chris, I happen to have that issue of GWRJ. Yes very hard to see what it is, but it does look most likely to be a horsebox. A shame that you can't have a 517 on Traeth Mawr, but I admire your strict adherence to the dates you have set (it's OK if you bend the rules a bit though, we won't tell anyone!).

 

I have had a search for horseboxes on the always rewarding Warwickshire Railways site.  The only photo I found where the horsebox was at the back is this one, although that's LNWR:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrstfd1347a.htm

 

The rest were all next to the loco. Here are the links below, in case anyone fancies a horsebox binge:

 

GWR horseboxes en route:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls2041.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls159.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrrj2158.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls890.htm

 

E&WJR (I completely lost my heart to this):

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/smjsa56.htm

 

SMJ:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/smjk87.htm

 

LNWR:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrns1666.htm

 

LMS:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrknlms203.htm

 

Various on Steve Banks' pages (scroll down):

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/129-horse-race-traffic

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Mikkel

On 02/11/2019 at 10:20, Mikkel said:

E&WJR (I completely lost my heart to this):

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/smjsa56.htm

I have the loco, and the coaches, but not yet the horsebox.

(Both the loco and the coaches are in need of a touch of TLC and repainting.)

On 31/10/2019 at 04:46, Mikkel said:

Thanks Chris. Meanwhile I am hunting for photos of horseboxes at the rear of a train. Other than the famous railcar-hauled horseboxes of the Lambourn branch, I haven't found any yet.

 

I found this in my collection of photos but, unfortunately, I do not know its provenance.

 

 

An earlier example is to be found on p.102 in Brian Arman's book 'BG Engines of the GWR, which shows a passenger train at Pangbourne c.1865, with several carriages, followed by a horse box, then a carriage truck (with carriage) and, finally, a luggage van.