Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
  • entries
    2
  • comments
    27
  • views
    342

JLTRT Receivership

pylonman

1,434 views

I've no intention of starting a topic which becomes a slanging match, so please resist the temptation to convert this blog into

one.

 

I believe it would be appropriate to let others know how they'll be treated, under British Law, when a supplier they are dealing with

ceases trading.

 

Some people will already know what happens, so this short blog is for those who don't know.

 

The following information is factual :

June 2017 ; I placed a pre-paid order for a JLTRT Class 47 model paying the sum of £455.00.

 

I was advised that the 47/8 version would not be available until early 2018.

 

It was early 2018 when I became aware, through posts on this forum, that there was a problem concerning JLTRT.

 

At no time, did anybody have the decency to contact me, as a customer, to advise me the status of JLTRT.

 

I eventually found out the identity of The Receivers.

 

I have just received a letter from The Receivers, mostly asking me to approve their expenses of circa £8000, whilst

a small section was devoted to remuneration of creditors.

 

Secured creditors are to re-imbursed at a rate of  100p in the pound. (Opinion : these are people who shouldn't be

upset if continuing in the hobby)

 

Unsecured creditors are to be re-imbursed at a rate of 0.001p in the pound  (Opinion : that is the rest of us)

 

This means that, through no fault of mine, JLTRT have reduced my £455.00 to 0.455p .

 

The thing that is really bugging me is that there is nothing under Brtitish Law, that I can do about it.

 

I started proceedings through the Money Reclaim Service, against Waterman directly, but I withdrew as I was advised, 

by people I trust, that I was unlikely to win the case, and I could face substantial expenses.

 

Unfortunately in this Country, directors of defunct companys' cannot be held responsible for the company's debts.

 

Many people will be aware that there are a list of models, advertised as " Ex- JLTRT"  or "From the JLTRT range" ,

being advertised by MM1 Models.

These appear to be the same as the JLTRT models, but are now listed with an RRP of circa £699 !!!

 

All of this has left me with a very bitter taste, and has taught me a very valuable lesson : don't pre-pay for anything that

is in a pre-production stage.

 

Regards

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Informative/Useful 1
  • Friendly/supportive 12


26 Comments


Recommended Comments



Fenman

Posted (edited)

It is a brutal process, and probably of no consolation to you that this is not a uniquely British process but one which would operate in much the same way in most of the western world. 

 

You’re right, of course, that there are always risks in paying up-front. Sometimes (depending on the circumstances) you can mitigate some or all of the risk by paying by credit card: the credit card company then has to repay you. 

 

When I was very young I lost some wages when my employer went bust, eventually receiving about 15% of what I’d earned. So I understand the bitter taste. 

 

Paul

Edited by Fenman
  • Thanks 1

Share this comment


Link to comment

It is worth noting too that there will be others, employees and maybe suppliers who have lost their livelihoods. I know that does nothing to help you with your losses though.

 

A very valid warning to all considering paying up front for goods that are not yet available methinks......

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this comment


Link to comment

This particular receivership seems a bit more "straight" than some. Generally, I am fairly disgusted by the way in which companies are allowed to avoid their responsibilities in these circumstances often reappearing in an arrangement known as "pre-pack".

 

There are cases (I was involved in one helping the creditors) where a Director can be held personally liable. At the very least, if it can be shown that they were negligent in continuing to trade when the company was insolvent, they should be reported to the appropriate authority so that they can be struck off i.e. banned from being Director of a Limited Company.

  • Like 1

Share this comment


Link to comment

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 was very useful to me a few years ago when I pre-paid via credit card for an annual subscription for broadband access from the now defunct ISP E7even. The company went into difficulties in early 2006 but was not wound up until over a year later in April  2007.  Via section 75 I was able to reclaim the pre-payment very easily and quickly on provision of evidence of non-supply.  I was expecting it to be pro-rated to cover usage received but the whole amount was refunded.


Now that personal credit card payments are legally not subject to surcharges, there's no real reason not to use them.

 

Section 75 protection applies even if only part of the payment is made by card, so long as the payment is £100 or more.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this comment


Link to comment
5 minutes ago, 2mmMark said:

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 was very useful to me a few years ago when I pre-paid via credit card for an annual subscription for broadband access from the now defunct ISP E7even. The company went into difficulties in early 2006 but was not wound up until over a year later in April  2007.  Via section 75 I was able to reclaim the pre-payment very easily and quickly on provision of evidence of non-supply.  I was expecting it to be pro-rated to cover usage received but the whole amount was refunded.


Now that personal credit card payments are legally not subject to surcharges, there's no real reason not to use them.

 

Section 75 protection applies even if only part of the payment is made by card, so long as the payment is £100 or more.

 

Good advice, doing this sort of claim is actually my job (i should be doing it right now actually) and the above is bang on - if a credit card was used for £100.01 or more of the OP's purchase then contacting the card provider will allow you to recover the full amount of your payment

  • Like 1
  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this comment


Link to comment

Hi.

 

Problem was ; I paid by credit card but because I had already been waiting for the model

for nearly 1 year, the credit card company said I was outside of the time limit.

 

I appreciate the advice, but I am confident that I have followed all of the options available

to get my money back.

 

This post is purely so that others can learn from my mis-fortune.

 

Thanks

Keith

Share this comment


Link to comment

Surely the timelimit should begin from the expected date of delivery not the date of order - it was a pre-order, the item was not available and was not delivered.

Share this comment


Link to comment

This is from the 'ThisIsMoney' website:

There isn't a time limit for making a claim under Section 75, however the statute of limitations in the UK is six years (five in Scotland) so this is the deadline you have to work to if you were to pursue a Section 75 claim through the courts.28 Apr 2014

 

I wonder if the Credit Card company were relying on a not receipt of goods chargeback which are time limited, Credit Card companies will also try and avoid paying out on Section 75 if they can - they're costly so you need to keep on and if they still won't play ball go to the ombudsman.

  • Thanks 1

Share this comment


Link to comment

What a magical system though :

 

Transforming the value of £455 into 0.455p !!

 

I wish I could reduce a few of my bills to 1/1000th of their true value ;

 

Imagine a whole years domestic energy bill of £1 !!!!

 

I digress. LOL.

 

 

 

Edited by pylonman

Share this comment


Link to comment
50 minutes ago, pylonman said:

Hi.

 

Problem was ; I paid by credit card but because I had already been waiting for the model

for nearly 1 year, the credit card company said I was outside of the time limit.

 

I appreciate the advice, but I am confident that I have followed all of the options available

to get my money back.

 

This post is purely so that others can learn from my mis-fortune.

 

Thanks

Keith

 

Well, they would, wouldn't they?

 

Banks don't like to pay out. But I think they are wrong on this one. The one year would apply from the time the loco was delivered. Worth a reference to the Ombudsman.

  • Agree 1

Share this comment


Link to comment

Sounds like Keith needs to assert his rights with his credit card issuer, who may well be reluctant to offer section 75 protection as they are also an unsecured creditor but that doesn't absolve their responsibility.  My particular card issuer was and still is MBNA and in the E7even case, they were excellent.

 

I have a great deal of sympathy for Keith's position as I'm sure his preference would be to have the loco he ordered as JLTRT products do seem to be pretty good. Maybe we are inclined to be rather too tolerant of delayed delivery? There was a similar situation in 2mm where a builder/kit producer was offering bespoke RTR 2mm finescale locos at very good prices. Orders were taken but models undelivered after lengthy waits. Paypal was the payment mechanism as I recall and there is a date limitation in that channel.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this comment


Link to comment
18 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Well, they would, wouldn't they?

 

Banks don't like to pay out. But I think they are wrong on this one. The one year would apply from the time the loco was delivered. Worth a reference to the Ombudsman.

 

Hi Joseph.

 

The loco was never delivered ; there is no reference date.  That is/was the problem.

 

Keith

Share this comment


Link to comment

Keith

 

You say there is no reference date, now I have no legal training but if it is as described "statute of limitations in the UK is six years " I would go back to the credit card company. There is a date the credit card company has, the payment date. If they fail to comply with your request then go to the ombudsman. A couple of letters fired off may be worthwhile. 

 

People have had issues I guess for many years, back in the 60's when something went wrong people said I had a bit of bad luck, now folk just want to sue . On the other hand too many people avoid their responsibilities by shutting down one company and opening another, often with very similar names. On the other hand there are some companies that go bust through no fault of their own, other than doing work which was never paid for.

 

I have one distant relative and also a good friend, both who are professionals in the building industry, one had severe issues with a builder by paying up front, the second was only about a small drive where the quality of work was not checked prior to paying. Neither in their professional life would do as they did  at home.  They were too busy at work and put trust in someone else, which is the norm as far as domestic matters go

  • Like 1

Share this comment


Link to comment
1 hour ago, pylonman said:

 

Hi Joseph.

 

The loco was never delivered ; there is no reference date.  That is/was the problem.

 

Keith

 

Hi Keith,

 

I understood that but perhaps I did not express myself very well.

 

The one-year limit would apply to something that had been delivered.

 

I don't think that there is any limit in respect of non-delivery but if there is, it would be the 6 year timeframe.

 

Joseph

Share this comment


Link to comment

You might have to go through the credit card company complaints procedure before you go to the ombudsman, I've dealt with the energy one, and that is how they often expect it to be, so that they're you last call in effect.

  • Agree 2

Share this comment


Link to comment

The ombudsman will not look at a case until you have gone through the complaint process, or failed to receive an answer within a specified time

  • Agree 2

Share this comment


Link to comment

Yes, the Ombudsman is the final stage, but you should definitely revisit the credit card company, not necessarily as a complaint in the first case, but I'd quickly escalate if necessary.

 

If you go to the Ombudsman they get charged £550 regardless of outcome, so most companies will avoid that wherever possible!

  • Agree 2

Share this comment


Link to comment

Hi.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Paypal didn't want to know : I wanted the model so much, I was quite happy to wait until  the variant

I wanted was in production, thus I was well outside their six month cut-off.  The JLTRT Class 47had been

in production for about 1 year when they ceased trading.

 

I am in the process of following up the credit card lead , although they are resisting at the moment.

 

Many thanks to all.

 

If my experience stops one person from falling into the same trap, it will have been worthwhile doing

this post.

 

  • Friendly/supportive 2

Share this comment


Link to comment
On 05/02/2019 at 16:00, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Well, they would, wouldn't they?

 

Banks don't like to pay out.

The difference between £500 and £500,000? 

If you owe the bank £500, then it’s your problem.

if you owe them £500,000, then it’s their problem...

  • Like 2

Share this comment


Link to comment

I have so far, stated that I am out of pocket to the tune of £455.

 

If I am being perfectly honest, the extent to which I am out of pocket, is considerably more than

that.

 

In excited anticipation of receiving the model, I ordered and received all of the additional items I would

need to complete :

 

Motor and ABC gearbox (not cheap)

Slaters Wheels

£40 for decals

Paint

Loksound V4 L decoder 

 

This amounts to another mistake of mine, buying all of this assuming I was going to get the

model initially.

 

Obviously this was my mistake and I only mention it so that others can avoid making the same

mistake.

Advice to others would be, don't buy the additionals until you've got the model, and are happy with it.

 

I have since found the money to purchase a DJH model, so the additional materials will be used for that.

DJH wasn't my first choice because I don't like the one piece, extremely heavy, pewter,  body.

 

So I have gone from £455 for the JLTRT 47, to £600 for the DJH 47, and now to £700 if I want the MM1 models

47. 

 

It does seem, in 7mm scale modelling, that £100 here or there is acceptable ; I can't help agreeing with what has been

said before, in many posts, that modellers are probably being priced out of the hobby/scale.

 

What went wrong with JLTRT in pricing their 47 at £455, and, as far as I know, the same thing through

MM1 models, is now £245 more, at £700 ?

 

It does seem as though there were either some dire mistakes made with the original pricing by JLTRT, or

the MM1 offering is extremely over priced.

 

Regards to everyone

Keith

 

Edited by pylonman

Share this comment


Link to comment

On a happier note, and just to demonstrate that I am not just "out to change the world", I have

purchased a Class 15xx model from Warren Shephard.

 

I am extremely happy with every aspect of the purchase ;

The price

The way the model goes together

Post sales support from Warren

Quality of fittings and etches

Wealth of instructions and drawings

 

The tricky area, with the composite curves required to produce the GWR style bunker, has been

solved by supplying brass castings, thus taking the pain out of getting it right.

 

I don't have any connection with Warren Shephard and don't stand to benefit, in any way by

making this statement.

 

I know this should be a separate post, but I just wanted to demonstrate that I am not a person

who always finds fault with things, and that I will praise, when praise is justified.

 

Regards

Keith

 

 

 

Share this comment


Link to comment

Nothing to do with JLRT or MMI models, over the past 30 years the cost of models, parts etc has just skyrocketed looking at price labels I have bought some years ago they have increased way above inflation. It might have been the case we were paying too less and that's why so many ranges disappeared/failed. & mm scale modelling has always been expensive, however there are some RTR locos under £200 as well as £800 + . Think the price rises became steeper when both business rates increased and the cost of employing staff increased substantially

 

As for ordering items which are out of stock, use a credit card if over £100, certainly when we ordered some furniture we paid the deposit by credit card, I think we also paid the balance that way just for the protection that comes with it.

Share this comment


Link to comment
23 minutes ago, pylonman said:

I have so far, stated that I am out of pocket to the tune of £455.

 

If I am being perfectly honest, the extent to which I am out of pocket, is considerably more than

that.

 

In excited anticipation of receiving the model, I ordered and received all of the additional items I would

need to complete :

 

Motor and ABC gearbox (not cheap)

Slaters Wheels

£40 for decals

Paint

Loksound V4 L decoder 

 

This amounts to another mistake of mine, buying all of this assuming I was going to get the

model initially.

 

Obviously this was my mistake and I only mention it so that others can avoid making the same

mistake.

Advice to others would be, don't buy the additionals until you've got the model, and are happy with it.

 

I have since found the money to purchase a DJH model, so the additional materials will be used for that.

DJH wasn't my first choice because I don't like the one piece, extremely heavy, pewter,  body.

 

So I have gone from £455 for the JLTRT 47, to £600 for the DJH 47, and now to £700 if I want the MM1 models

47. 

 

It does seem, in 7mm scale modelling, that £100 here or there is acceptable ; I can't help agreeing with what has been

said before, in many posts, that modellers are probably being priced out of the hobby/scale.

 

What went wrong with JLTRT in pricing their 47 at £455, and, as far as I know, the same thing through

MM1 models, is now £245 more, at £700 ?

 

It does seem as though there were either some dire mistakes made with the original pricing by JLTRT, or

the MM1 offering is extremely over priced.

 

Regards to everyone

Keith

 

Keith I totally agree with your above comments with regard to JLTRT pricing policy. I purchased their Class 40 when it first come out and spent a long time making the model into an excellent machine which I was very happy with considering it was the first 7mm loco kit that I had ever built. It was a joy to assemble although I did find the instructions a bit confusing to start with. The locomotive stills runs to this day but have changed the motor and gear boxes with the up to date ABC gears and Canon motor which has improved the running quality considerably. Looking forward I'm now looking to purchase a Class 24 which MM1 models are now marketing at the considerably increased price as you rightly point out and although I know what a good quality kit it is I am in two minds about making the purchase. Firstly will Heljan bring about a Class 24 rtr model and if I purchase one will I be happy with it knowing the high standard of the MM1 model even though the Heljan model will probably command a price of £500 ish. 

Share this comment


Link to comment
23 hours ago, gismorail said:

Keith I totally agree with your above comments with regard to JLTRT pricing policy. I purchased their Class 40 when it first come out and spent a long time making the model into an excellent machine which I was very happy with considering it was the first 7mm loco kit that I had ever built. It was a joy to assemble although I did find the instructions a bit confusing to start with. The locomotive stills runs to this day but have changed the motor and gear boxes with the up to date ABC gears and Canon motor which has improved the running quality considerably. Looking forward I'm now looking to purchase a Class 24 which MM1 models are now marketing at the considerably increased price as you rightly point out and although I know what a good quality kit it is I am in two minds about making the purchase. Firstly will Heljan bring about a Class 24 rtr model and if I purchase one will I be happy with it knowing the high standard of the MM1 model even though the Heljan model will probably command a price of £500 ish. 

 

Hi Gismorail.

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

When you consider that a lot of us who model 7mm are possibly/probably retired, 500,600,700 pounds

is certainly a lot of money to spend out of a pension income.

 

Let me see now  ;  Model or Food ?

 

Best of luck with your Class 24, whichever way you choose to go.

 

 

 

Share this comment


Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.