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I wonder if the OP remembers, many years ago, a thread on this very forum where people moaned about how folks would post "me too" in response to someone saying how they liked something. That was before the like etc. buttons were added and you'd get a whole list of people saying nothing worthwhile but who were showing their appreciation for the poster's work and them having taken the time to post it. You can't please everyone...

 

The OP's argument here is that these buttons are taking away conversation but I don't think that's true. I don't think that if those buttons were taken away that my threads would be full of conversation; I just think that they would be still as empty but I would have no idea if anyone appreciated anything I was posting and so I wouldn't bother posting them at all.

 

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Knuckles

Posted (edited)

I'm commenting in bold again as the quotes are awkward for lots of quotes.

 

-

 

EDWARDIAN: It caused me to reflect that there are Young People, for whom the accumulation of ratings and followers is a way to earn a living, and even younger people, like my daughter, who see that as perfectly worthwhile and to be emulated.

 

Likes can help pique ratings which can turn into money generation via various means true, that is a plus in some cases.

 

EDWARDIAN: We do not need conspirators to enslave us.  We do it to ourselves by, for instance, equating researched and substantiated factual reporting by traditional news media with the gossip of social media, or even preferring the latter to the former, which is discredited as "fake news" by the peddlars of 'real' fake news.  

 

Though perhaps we are nudged along that path by Dark Forces?  They wind us up, point us in their direction of travel, and leave us to do all the walking for them. God, that's bleak. 

 

Nah, it’s not that bleak.  Divide and conquer, get us all squabbling, then they can control us easier.  Also the Hegelian Dialectic in play in some cases.  Old successful tactics perpetuated.

 

Muck Bonwick: More nudging? Is there no end to this?

 

MSN had Nudging, I miss MSN. 

 

TangoOscarMike: Here's a funny thing. I had never used a like button (since I think that social media is the death of the Internet), until I started using it on RMWeb a couple of months ago.

 

Several times I found myself having nothing to say, but wanting to make some sort of acknowledgement. And I realised that the like button exists (ostensibly, at least) for precisely this purpose. So I started using it. And it is useful (I choose to regard it as useful) that there are different types of like, to express particular types of approval.

In normal speech we make all sorts of brief approving noises, some of which are actual words, when we have nothing to add.....

Compound2632: Think of the "like" button as a form of applause. "It would be inappropriate or forward of me to offer an in-depth critical response to your post but I have found the content interesting or entertaining."

Jonboy: I quite often finding myself browsing random topics that are of no practical use to my interests, but are interesting to read nonetheless. This leaves me wanting to thank or acknowledge the poster, but not necessarily wasting everyone’s time on written replies or questions where the answers are not going to be put to practical use. The like buttons suit this purpose well in my opinion.

 

I also often write a reply, go to spell/grammar check it and decide it is not constructively adding to the discussion and delete it again....

 

Fair points.  I’m not saying the like buttons are completely useless.  In the vid I estimate them to have 10-15% value.  On a personal level I’d often rather a comment worth reading (not short 1 liners) or literally nothing.  It is an opinion thing though.  For me it shows a lack of care or bother, in which case, I’d rather no response at all.

 

Gordon A: Why use lots of words and time when a pressing the Like button or any other button does the job equally as well.

I do sometimes think a Dislike button could be useful.

I much prefer pictures to words.

Gordon A

 

Because it doesn’t do the job equally as well, if it did we’d all be walking around the streets dumb thrusting our thumbs at everyone!  It retards conversation and social interactions to nothing more than a numerical statistic.  It also (to me and some others, not all granted) often communicates, “I can’t be arsed or don’t care enough to speak to you.”  Is how it comes across to me anyway. 

 

Compound2632: A dislike button would have rather antisocial consequences. Better to pass by in silence. Likewise refraining from written comment.

Which I've not done here!

Hover the mouse above the symbols and it should give you a text of its meaning.

 

Wheres_Wally: I remember the good old days when people would craft an OP rather than expecting everyone to sit through a 5 minute ego-trip video. Words, if considered, can be read in seconds. Video demands as much of my life as the creator thinks they can get away with, usually much more than I'm willing to give.

 

I do craft textual posts, quite often.  Just lately I’ve been crafting them less and less for a few reasons.  One is nower days people use like buttons too much and there is little to no incentive for me to bother my arse putting the effort in when I get jack back.

Another is if I have a lot to say it’s easier and more fun to make a quick low or no editing video.

Thirdly SOME people prefer videos and can actually be bothered to watch them, whereas a lot of people can’t be arsed to read a massive bank of text, they’ll see the tome and think ‘sod that’ and pass right on by.  When you approach a video there is a time stamp, if the 5 minutes isn’t worth your time then don’t watch it.  I’ve been on YouTube since 2006, have 2 channels and the platform is clearly a popular method of communicating…as is good old text.

Horses for courses, trucks for sidings.  Can’t please everyone.

 

Nick Holiday: I have to agree with TangoOscarMike, Compound, Jonboy et al. The buttons allow you to show your appreciation when you have nothing further to add. To me, they are better than Plonker123 quoting a long post and then saying "wow!!", meaning I have scrolled through half a page of repeated text, for nothing, whilst clogging up the system. The likes are also directly attached to the post in question. When you consider the ramblings of Castle Aching and Tony Wright's threads, and many others, I suppose you need to quote something, otherwise a comment without context would be meaningless, but when I do this I try to edit out as much as possible of the original text to keep things concise. I suspect things are different on Facebook etc.

 

I agree to a degree, the buttons are better than nothing.  The short “Wow” type comments I also agree are kind of the same as the buttons, in which I’d rather none at all.  Bad init!

 

AY Mod: Which is precisely why the facility was brought in to RMweb. I didn't like the plain singular 'Like' function though so I bought and adapted a modification script which enabled different types of reactions to be made (a long, long time before Facebook had such), a 'Like' isn't particularly appropriate when someone's said their dog has died for instance

 

As I said in the video, unless I’m mistaken, I do believe RMweb was the first to add these extra types of ‘likes’ and they are an improvement as they can more effectively communicate particulars.  FB et al followed suit.  They are for sure way better than just the like by itself.

 

When accompanied by actual text they make a good combination, but solo…not much better.

 

AY Mod: It was also aimed to reduce the volume of posts we used to experience, part of managing the size of the site.

 

It certainly worked.  Many conversations were indeed retarded or killed off. Reducing short wow’s is good but reducing proper posts worth reading is bad.  The like buttons have a wide blanket effect reducing both good and bad posts.  I am of course talking about the WHOLE internet, not just RMweb.  As I say, RMweb’s extra types of likes were a step in the right direction repairing the damage the original common like button’s have done to the ‘net.  I like them with text but not in the stead.

 

Jonny777: I post quite a lot of photos over various threads, and to me the 'like' button is one way of showing that viewers have actually looked at the images. No likes on a number of photos and I would begin to wonder if it was worth going to the trouble of posting any of  them at all. 

 

Social variance of view, feel, values and opinion is always an interesting study.  As I keep harping on, I’d choose no likes but comments worth reading any day, when I’ve spent ages crafting a textual post, video or model etc and have no comments but a few ‘likes’ I get angry and think ‘FUDGE!’ ‘Why bother.’

Comments can be negative too, especially if constructive, which so far on this thread we indeed are talking now.  Just like it should be.  If we all agreed on everything 100% there would be zero learning.

 

Ruston: I wonder if the OP remembers, many years ago, a thread on this very forum where people moaned about how folks would post "me too" in response to someone saying how they liked something. That was before the like etc. buttons were added and you'd get a whole list of people saying nothing worthwhile but who were showing their appreciation for the poster's work and them having taken the time to post it. 

 

This OP hasn’t been on RMweb as long as he has other forums so the thread in question I don’t remember, but as been said the short comments are pretty pointless and annoying I agree.

 

Ruston: The OP's argument here is that these buttons are taking away conversation but I don't think that's true. I don't think that if those buttons were taken away that my threads would be full of conversation; I just think that they would be still as empty but I would have no idea if anyone appreciated anything I was posting and so I wouldn't bother posting them at all.

 

OP must vehemently but respectfully disagree.  I’m drawing from my personal pool of experience since circa 2006 on various platforms so I know what I’m on about, at least in my experiential reality of what has happened; you may have had a different experience.  

As said in the video itself.  I used to really enjoy carefully crafting a post, now I don’t do it as often.  Thoughtful text, picture placements etc and then once posted there was a LOT f conversation. 

At least for me with my posts.  It was worth doing.  Since the like button was invented on various platforms and became mainstream, my posts on these forums (not just RMweb) have little to NO comments and conversation at all. 

Some of my posts may have 10-20 or 50 likes etc but as to comments little to non. 

Yet IN THE PAST there would be a lot of comments worth reading, both good, bad and suggestive on whatever I posted.  It was fun and encouraging and showed people were genuinely interested and you could learn what they liked, didn’t or how to improve things.  Clicking an icon doesn’t cut the mustard and communicates very little.

So what I’m saying is, I’m not moaning based on a whimsical fantasy, I’m moaning based on the ‘Good old Days’ of when things were better.  My arguments can be proved empirically by posting lots of examples, but there isn’t much point.

-

Mallard60022 posted a BOMB about to go off!   Pretty funny.

-

Well, this thread is more how things USED to be.  Genuine conversation with a variance of views where we can interact and learn better.  Good example. 

Many thanks to you all for contributing. :)

Edited by Knuckles

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4 hours ago, Knuckles said:

OP must vehemently but respectfully disagree.  I’m drawing from my personal pool of experience since circa 2006 on various platforms so I know what I’m on about, at least in my experiential reality of what has happened; you may have had a different experience.  

My experience is that my threads never get a great deal of conversation. I don't know if that's because the subject matter isn't mainstream, or because my posting style is boring.

It's most likely the latter because I can look around various layout or workbench threads here on rmweb and find some that have dozens of replies each week but contain very little actual modelling by their originators.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Ruston said:

My experience is that my threads never get a great deal of conversation. I don't know if that's because the subject matter isn't mainstream, or because my posting style is boring.

It's most likely the latter because I can look around various layout or workbench threads here on rmweb and find some that have dozens of replies each week but contain very little actual modelling by their originators.

 

 

 

It's because your work is of such a uniformly high standard that we are rendered speechless - or wordless, if you prefer.

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6 hours ago, Ruston said:

My experience is that my threads never get a great deal of conversation. I don't know if that's because the subject matter isn't mainstream, or because my posting style is boring.

It's most likely the latter because I can look around various layout or workbench threads here on rmweb and find some that have dozens of replies each week but contain very little actual modelling by their originators.

 

 

 

I agree. My own thread isn't that popular, and I only post sporadically. I get occasional "Likes", I see it as a "thumbs up" when someone has found something useful or interesting in what I've said. I'd rather that than pointless posts filling every thread with "that's nice", "that's good", "that's real nice", ... ad nauseam. If you have something to add, to bring to the conversation, then do so, just like in real life. But in real life, people can generally see your reactions to something - a nod of agreement, a smile - but without that visual element, an "agree" works well. It conveys interest, without adding needless text. Imagine how dry and irritating a thread like Jim's GBRf one would be if the 20 or 30 people who often "like" his posts showed their appreciation by all posting "wow".  We'd either just not bother wading through it, or if no one posted their "wow" Jim would have no idea how popular it is, and maybe stop bothering sharing his story (Sorry, just using you as an example Jim, hope you don't mind).

If there's good conversation to be had, then I'm sure it will be. If someone has a pertinent point to make, they will. But making conversation for the sake of making conversation, when there's nothing that really needs to be said, is pointless. Especially on a forum where it just clutters up the site and makes it hard to read, it benefits no one. 

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Can't recall who said it, or when, but the phrase "those addicted to the sound of their own keyboard" comes to mind :o:D

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I try to view the forum as a range of group conversations in the pub that I can wander between.  Folk nod, smile and make approving noises when someone is talking.  We don't have those non-verbal elements on the internet and so, to a degree, the buttons can serve that function.  I get more peeved by the single word "wow" or "drool" or whatever, especially if the person has also quoted a long entry complete with pictures that are available just above.

Alan

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Knuckles

Posted (edited)

Maybe encourage the creation of a new set of buttons then:

'Um'

 

'Arrr'

 

'Yea'

 

'Huhuuh'

 

......brilliant conversation right there.  

 

I'm jesting of course.

Edited by Knuckles

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The idea of a forum is to converse with others in a reasoned way so that all participants can collect information, decide what parts of that information or ideas they either agree or disagree with and what is relevant to the matter under discussion. We are slowly losing the ability as a nation (I cannot speak for our fellow human beings overseas not having experienced their lifestyle) to write in a co ordinated and reasoned way. The ability to push an item (button) on a GUI to me exacerbates the problem, there is no debate and we find we come against the internet warriors who do not know how to go about conversation.

 

Apologies for the rant.

 

Regards

 

Peter

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Forum....conversation.

 

Nail head hit.  :)

 

Yep.

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17 hours ago, Knuckles said:

Forum....conversation.

 

Nail head hit.  :)

 

Yep.

Hi Knuckles,

 

Here is the etymology of the word forum:

 

forum (n.)

mid-15c., "place of assembly in ancient Rome," from Latin forum "marketplace, open space, public place," apparently akin to foris, foras "out of doors, outside," from PIE root *dhwer- "door, doorway." Sense of "assembly, place for public discussion" first recorded 1680s.

 

It would seem that you are quite correct in your criticism of the like button in so far as it does indeed retard discourse !

 

Gibbo.

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It is entirely consistent with the historic sense of a forum to wish to be able to give assent to points made by non-verbal means, without the obligation to make a further point in the debate oneself.

 

I'l be looking forward to a round of postings saying simply "hear, hear" in response!

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On 10/07/2019 at 17:27, Compound2632 said:

It is entirely consistent with the historic sense of a forum to wish to be able to give assent to points made by non-verbal means, without the obligation to make a further point in the debate oneself.

 

I'l be looking forward to a round of postings saying simply "hear, hear" in response!

 

I agree

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I suspect the likes may be ironic due to the prevalent humour. 

Some people dislike the “wow” and “great mate” posts as they add nothing to the thread, others wring their hands as what they’ve posted obviously is no interest to anyone. Get ready for this ;) I don’t ‘like’ animated gifs as I find them slightly distracting flickering in the corner of my view so I scroll up to eliminate them. Nothing to do with the nice gif just I find they draw the eye. I prefer non animated emoticons too but try to use them to make it clear what I mean as text can be taken two ways especially in posts about emotions. 

If I have a question or something I think is of interest to add I’ll write a post but otherwise I use the like, or other buttons, to show appreciation politely and not risk cluttering up the thread with a contrived or pointless sentence. Others that have expressed a ‘dislike of like’ I try to remember and say a few words. Sometimes I forget who likes and who dislikes ‘likes’ and get it wrong. 

I post my topics hoping it might be interesting and prompt useful responses to improve the model through details or techniques. If one other enjoys it then it’s been worth it. Probably due to my eclectic tastes or possibly inane rambling ;) none of mine run into hundreds of pages but they have lead to fascinating contacts and making new friends who still ‘like’ posts on here but are articulate and chatty in person. 

So I’m quite happy with likes over “wow” single word posts much like a smile in real life is as nice as a hello :) 

Maybe it would be possible within the software for us to choose to disable the buttons on our threads if we want to? 

 

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I do think likes, emoticons, emoji's etc are good for adding to a comment or paragraph.  In a conversational context they help a lot with clarity and 'diction' and as you say, emotion.  They make it more fun,  yet by themselves as a replacement to text I'm not a fan.

 

Can't please everyone!

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I agree wholeheartedly with using them in addition :) 

 

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Well I've hit the 'Agree' button a few times in this thread.  As a reader of threads on RMWeb, I hate the pointless 'me too', 'wow' and 'thanks for posting' type posts.  I dislike revisiting a thread that I've contributed to in the past simply to discover that the new post says nothing more than 'nice modelling'.  I just think, could you not have hit the 'Like' button instead!  What I would like to see is a well crafted original post followed by a number of well crafted or at least relevant follow on posts that add to the conversation or body of information.  That is, I'd like threads to be a future reference source that are not cluttered up with pointless comments of agreement between the more valuable posts.

 

With that in mind, I therefore read posts and if I don't have a question that I want to ask, I don't have any new information to contribute and don't have an interesting statement or observation that I feel able to make, but I either agree with the sentiment of the post or admire the craftsmanship that has been displayed, then I will tend to use the various 'Like' buttons.  If I feel that I have something worthwhile to contribute, then I will do so, irrespective of whether or not there was a like button.  As such, I personally don't have any issue with the 'Like' button and see it as a non-verbal form of communication in the same way as a 'nod' or a 'smile' in a physical conversation.

 

I'll leave you to decide whether or not this particular post adds anything to the discussion.

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I see the 'like' button as performing an essential function - namely removing lots of otherwise tedious posts where folk simply say 'I agree with posters X, Y & Z!

 

I don't spend time browsing RMweb to find it full of superficial twaddle like that - we are subjected to enough of that from the rest of the media.

 

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37 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I agree with the above post...

Me too (And I also agree with the post below this one).

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1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

What I would like to see is a well crafted original post followed by a number of well crafted or at least relevant follow on posts that add to the conversation or body of information. 

Do we click the craftsmanship/clever button for those? :wacko: :wub: :drink_mini:

 

 

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Well, I suppose that's a good point.  Do we all understand and use these buttons in the same way?  The answer is probably no.  I would tend to reserve the 'Craftsmanship/Clever' button for what I see as a high standard of modelling or an ingenious solution to a problem.  I suppose I could claim it's a high class of 'Like'.  For a well written informative post, I would tend to use the 'Informative/Useful' button.  That is a sort of thanks for sharing type comment: ie it has probably taught me something that I didn't know or given me something to think about.

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