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48 minutes ago, Calnefoxile said:

I have a question regarding the transport of China Clay and the wagons used.....

 

I believe that UCV and OOV were the same thing - the code was changed in 1983.  This type used a 9 foot w/b chassis.

 

The OWV was longer and ran on a 10 foot w/b chassis.  So, the types are not inter-changeable.

6 hours ago, Calnefoxile said:

I have a question regarding the transport of China Clay and the wagons used.

 

From what I have managed to find out the China Clay was moved around Cornwall in wgaons designated as UCV, but these wagons never really left Cornwall. There was a train called the Clayliner that ran from Cornwall to Stoke-on-Trent and because of the type of Bearings used on the UCV's the Clay was transferred to wagons designated as OWV.

 

Now in N Gauge there are not so many choices for China Clay wagons, but Kernow Models commissioned a special via Farish of the UCV's on a proper 9' chassis & Peco have produced a wagon designated as an OOV, NR-51 https://peco-uk.com/products/china-clay-hood-wagon now my question is; Is the Peco variant sufficiently close to an OWV that can be used in the Clayliner Train??

 

Regards

 

Neal.

It's been a while since I worked in N scale so I had to think about this! The clayliner was a mixed pool of standard BR 5 plank 10' wheelbase wagons which are readily available from I think all 3 manufacturers, and highfits which are available as a kit from the N Gauge Society. Alternatively it's a pretty simple kitbash to cut the wagon ends out of a Farish 5 plank and insert some corrugated styrene. The N Gauge Society does also have the metal bodied version if you'd like to add a bit of variety to a rake. Subtle differences between brake gear types are simply too small to appreciate in 2mm scale so I never even bothered - once weathered they're such a close fit that nobody notices anyway.

Use masking tape for your sheet, with a simulated load underneath to create the "bulge" - sheeted opens were always loaded above the wagonsides to create a "hill" so that rainwater wouldn't pool on the sheet. The sheets were various shades of grey, black, dark blue, etc. but if you're feeling adventurous, use some clear tape for a couple of the sheets, and give a light mist of white weathering with an airbrush - there were some experimental clear plastic sheets for these wagons and that adds a little interest.

For the roller bearings, I just used a sharp knife to remove the old friction bearing, and replaced it with a piece cut off the end of a styrene rod of appropriate diameter. This is pretty crude but to be honest with N scale it's so small that this actually does the trick at normal viewing distances.

On 01/01/2020 at 01:21, autocoach said:

We had a fairly active yahoo group that fell afoul of the many changes of ownership of yahoo and the devastation of the online forums (the new owners were worse than ole Smaug.).  There was considerable information in the files of that group that described not only the railway transport of china clay but the whole process. Coline33 of this parish was the owner of the yahoo group and I have just offered to help reconstruct it on the groups.io platform where most of the active yahoo forums have migrated, Hopefully we will be able to move the files that we have saved from yahoo there too. 

Thanks for mentioning the CCB Yahoo Group.   Firstly I was not the Group Owner (GO) and changes in the manner Yahoo made to signing-in prevented my entry into the site to continue my role of Moderator whilst the GO spent much of his life abroad.   The GO too had problems in communicating with Yahoo.   I have started the new year with further applications (with two from ' down under') to join which I can only forward to GO via personal email for approval.   In confirming that the approvals were granted the GO has found the site 'empty'.   Fortunately, last year on receiving the formal Yahoo notification of their changes and knowing the problems that another of my groups had experienced and changed course, I was able to download and save the content that I had contributed.   My work was mostly from CMR through to BR early diesel era with wagons to the fore!   So I am now responding to requests for data direct and anyone wanting help is welcome to contact me.  

I've just found this article when I was looking for something else but it struck a chord. Returning to the initial post my own thoughts are that most railway modellers are more interested in trains (and principally locomotives) rather than railways*. So for example when they model the large passenger station this is really to accommodate a long express pulled by a big engine which is the focus. 

When they model clay district, its the shorter clay train. 

The problem is how they plan and build the model. Obviously almost everybody is constrained by space but the almost universal error is to put the scenery around the track rather than the track into the scenery. In real life there is no chicken and egg option but in a model there is. Instead of building a railway in a scene most people put a scene around a railway in the space that is left. 

Making models quaint is a trap we can all easily fall into as we search for the bucolic, decent, easy, sunny days of yore we imagine must have existed before the frantic and stressful lives we live today. It's hard to convey poverty, insanitary living, rudimentary healthcare, dangerous working conditions and the asylum/work house threat via a toy train. Much better a rosy cheeked countryman and a gaggle of laughing children harvesting a rich rural bounty. No one can see the cripple or industrial amputee hidden in the hovel and eeking survival on parish relief and charity. When did anybody last model a rundown Ag Lab's hovel as opposed to an Agatha Christie class thatched cottage?

Anyway, here comes the XYZ first class only Pullman express. Weren't the railways wonderful!

 

* For me railways encompass so much more than tracks and trains. Railways they are about people and what people do. How they effect society as a whole, architecture, art, industry and the countryside. Locomotives are simply tools to propel trains carrying people and goods. Of course some are beautiful and some impressive creations with great appeal and charisma but they are essentially a means to an end and receive disproportionate attention compared to other aspects of railways. The hobby is after all railway modelling and not locomotive modelling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Has anyone found drawings of the CMR iron bodied China clay tippler wagons? Or close up photos?

drduncan

Not got a drawing but there is a half descent photo of 2 going up the incline at Newquay. It in John Vaugham's Newquay branch book page 184 plate 295.

 

Hope that helps

 

Marc

On 12/01/2020 at 10:23, coline33 said:

Thanks for mentioning the CCB Yahoo Group.   Firstly I was not the Group Owner (GO) and changes in the manner Yahoo made to signing-in prevented my entry into the site to continue my role of Moderator whilst the GO spent much of his life abroad.   The GO too had problems in communicating with Yahoo.   I have started the new year with further applications (with two from ' down under') to join which I can only forward to GO via personal email for approval.   In confirming that the approvals were granted the GO has found the site 'empty'.   Fortunately, last year on receiving the formal Yahoo notification of their changes and knowing the problems that another of my groups had experienced and changed course, I was able to download and save the content that I had contributed.   My work was mostly from CMR through to BR early diesel era with wagons to the fore!   So I am now responding to requests for data direct and anyone wanting help is welcome to contact me.  

I must confess to being the errant GO of the China Clay Branchlines site on Yahoo Groups.  Life changed when I started the restoration of a medieval house in France and my modelling went on hold in preference to 12"/ft scale timber frame repairs.  I must publicly thank Collin for his massive efforts to keep the site going in my absence. Throughout the final years I found the Group increasingly difficult to use and many errors crept ino the system with photograph and file access proving especially difficult. Initially I put it down to my lack of IT abilities but so many others suffered the same and in the end I went back to 'real' building.  The closure of the site is a big loss to those of us with an interest in china clay modelling.  Lockdown has brought me back to 4mm/ft and I'm delighted to find this thread on RMW.  Thanks again Collin for your amazing  contribution to CCB and your perseverance.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Nick Platt

Some great photos in the thread.

I think the OP needs a serious chill pill though. People model railways for relaxation, and quite often an airbrushed version of reality is what they want , in their ideal world. If I was modelling London , I wouldn’t want someone getting stabbed on my platforms - but to indicate where it’s set, I may want to model the shard - compressed to 1/10 scale because it’s says “ London “.

 

Same with cornwall. I’ve never met anyone who has said “ I hate cornwall, it’s so ugly “ ( although the clay areas are quite ugly compared with the fudge tin inspiring fishing villages ). But if you want freight, to indicate cornwall, it’s China clay , not really any other show in town.

 

And yes, I doubt most people will want the reality of a 3m long shed or Linhay or whatever. Because if that is the reality, the other reality is that it probably got one or two trains a day. Boring. Too much reality is dull sometimes.

 

Just my take on it.

Yes, Rob, that is why my china clay line remained in the BR steam and early diesel days in the limited space of an extended dining room table!!!   But my "Polbrook" clay works buildings are those from KMRC with a halt for passenger trains between Wadebridge and Bodmin plus through freights.   Result is a lot of movement in the limited time the layout is in place.   Nice to have the space for modern image operations but if it was for me then the passenger service Newquay to Par would have to be rerouted!   But it is great to see the work that has been put into Rosevear.

I’ve flirted with the idea of China clay planks a few time and still have 6 CDAs, but even using every bit of freight west of Exeter in my chosen time period ( late 90s or early 80s), it still didn’t make for a very exciting prospect 

IMHO probably the best period to model a China clay works would be some where around 1919-23 as the amalgamation of all the smaller companies into ECC would allow you to have different PO wagons at the same Linhay at the same time. To keep people's interested having the same stock running in and out would be a bit boring for an operator let alone those watching.

Marc

I reckon models of China clay works are very popular and that’s good. Yes they may understate the size and complexity of the real thing but that applies to pretty much any type of installation on most model railways. My N gauge layout is in Devon so is restricted to the clayliner. Ok I haven’t modified the axle boxes to roller bearings but it’s close enough for me.

Having said that I’m thinking clay hoods may have been seen in south Devon - there were certainly some at Exeter Riverside from time to time.

4 hours ago, Furness Wagon said:

IMHO probably the best period to model a China clay works would be some where around 1919-23 as the amalgamation of all the smaller companies into ECC would allow you to have different PO wagons at the same Linhay at the same time. To keep people's interested having the same stock running in and out would be a bit boring for an operator let alone those watching.

Marc

Yes, Marc, but I would extend the period to 1930 as the GWR also converted some of their absorbed wagons into the clay trade.   BR in fact did exactly the same thing in transferring some of the general POs acquired into clay service by the 1950s.   Both World Wars created in peacetime an increase in clay loadings urgently requiring more wagons than available.   I agree that the use of the named POs is far more attractive to the uninitiated than BR grey ones where to appreciate the wagon differences requires an expert knowledge.

5 hours ago, Furness Wagon said:

IMHO probably the best period to model a China clay works would be some where around 1919-23 as the amalgamation of all the smaller companies into ECC would allow you to have different PO wagons at the same Linhay at the same time. To keep people's interested having the same stock running in and out would be a bit boring for an operator let alone those watching.

Marc

I’d struggle to get any 37s involved with that 

Having built and exhibited Wheal Elizabeth, I’ve a real temptation to build another China clay layout. Not helped by the subsequent acquisition of Kernow’s PRAs and a Tiger hopper.

I’ve got other layouts to finish first though!

I loved watching the operation of "Wheal Elizabeth" at shows and also for its flexibility of era.   "Minion" looks great for the steam era so how about having a "Denise" for the diesel era?   Or maybe you have already built that!

To me it was the mixture of some clay facilities in what appeared to be the middle of nowhere that appealed to me. So not so much the huge settings like Rocks at Goonbarrow or Burngullow but Ponts Mill, Moorswater and Wenford Bridge. The industrial trains squeezing past cottages or through dense woodland. And that's what I've tried to capture a little bit in my layouts. Even in N it requires huge compression - but so does the whole layout with curves that are far too tight, short loops and sidings. To me its about capturing the atmosphere and essence of a place. My clay works may be very under scale but it still towers over the passenger line and dominates the scene.

 

The OP talks about loading wharfs where clay was brought in by lorry from other works. Were there any examples of these into the blue diesel era? Would be an interesting feature to add

 

Great to see more photos of Wheal Elizabeth. It was a real inspiration of mine, especially the multi era aspect of it

Did the Yahoo group (I think I was a member) ever get moved to the preferred new platform Groups.io? Most other Yahoo groups were migrated in 2018-2019. 

 

I still have a lingering hankering to to a small highly compressed Wenford Drys in OO.  At least 3 Kernow resin cast clay drys are in storage somewhere in my house and I have a bunch of kit1923 RCH clay wagons and all 3 BWT's  although inoperable.  The revival of the Kernow road van would make the scene. 

No, the CCB Yahoo Group did not go elsewhere.   With Nick emulating Tom Sawbridge abroad and I having problems being recognised by Yahoo as a member, the Group site just elapsed into the ether.   

On 03/09/2020 at 10:02, TomJ said:

The OP talks about loading wharfs where clay was brought in by lorry from other works. Were there any examples of these into the blue diesel era? Would be an interesting feature to add

They were mostly gone by the time the diesels came along but the few that lingered were Nanpean Wharf, Meledor Mill, and Rostowrack/Slip. The first two were used to bring clay from drys that were not rail connected, a dying breed by that time! I'd say the practice ended in the very early 70s, after which Nanpean Wharf was used to take delivery of pipework and equipment for use in the industry, and Meledor Mill was relegated to a shunting loop for the nearby Collins dryer. The latter, Rostowrack, was a loading point for china stone - it had a mass concrete ramp for trucks to back onto, with a loading chute at the end of it which fed the wagons waiting in the siding below. Rostowrack lasted a little longer into the 70s.

Slightly off track, 

 My family has a small connection with ECC.  One of my family was the transport manager for Heavy transport, my nan worked at John Keay house, the family haulage company was bought at the very start of the heavy haulage business as they wanted the experience and knowledge. 
A couple of pictures of two of the trucks and where the workshops used to be in an old dryer. 

 

Thanks, Andrew, for bringing Heavy Transport to the fore.   In the old CCB website there were folders on road vehicles and ships.   I have checked through the items I was able to save but alas only the rail items are there.   I love the last photo which gives proof that you can use those modern refuse bins on a 'modern image' layout!   

 

Wishing you all the very best you can make of this year's Christmas and trust things will improve in the New Year.   Colin.

2 hours ago, coline33 said:

Thanks, Andrew, for bringing Heavy Transport to the fore.   In the old CCB website there were folders on road vehicles and ships.   I have checked through the items I was able to save but alas only the rail items are there.   I love the last photo which gives proof that you can use those modern refuse bins on a 'modern image' layout!   

 

Wishing you all the very best you can make of this year's Christmas and trust things will improve in the New Year.   Colin.

  I found this link last night as I was looking for things 

https://heritagemachines.com/commercials/clay-from-the-cornish-ports/

 

not sure if you have seen it, makes me a bit homesick seeing the trucks in the blue and white scheme I remember. 

Thanks, Andrew, I had not seen this article by David.   From memory he was a member of CCB and had a model clay rail layout upon which he concentrated on road vehicles and shipping.   I feel sure he contributed to the files on both non-rail subjects.   One day I hope to get my clay rail stock out of storage if only for a run round my dining room table layout based on Hornby sectional track and KMRC buildings!   Colin.

Andrew, you might want to join the facebook group Western Excavating (ECC) Ltd if you haven't already.