Bredon / Talyllyn inspired 6' x 4' family layout

Observations, not to be taken as criticisms and the benefit of having been there, done that, washed the t shirt.  There's nothing wrong with a mistake if you are willing to learn from it...

 

Looking at the photos, the thing that immediately strikes me is that several of your track joints near turnouts are not smoothly laid in respect of adjoining the next piece of track.  This means that stock entering the turnouts, especially from the facing direction, will not 'attack' the crossing vee at the correct angle and be prone to derailment, especially at speed or propelling.  A similar issue is caused by the proximity of the high level trailing crossover to the top of the incline of the 'inner' track, which may cause derailments at the turnout because longer stock my 'lift' a little.  Buffer locking may be an issue at these locations as well.  

 

This is particularly noticeable at the '01' and '11' positions, with an odd little curved piece that does not align properly with the turnouts at each end of it.

 

Track laying is fundamental to the successful running of the layout, and it is best if possible to use a single standard geometry, especially in continuous circuit tail chasing layouts; flexible and set track do not mix in this respect even when the profiles match.  Check that the baseboard is level and rigid, then relay the track ensuring that all the pieces are flat to the board (or the risers on the high level sections) and that there are smooth vertical transition curves at the top and bottom of the gradients; this can be tricky on curves as it easy for them to adopt a slight twist.  You also need to ensure that the pieces are laid as smoothly linear to each other as possible, and that the rail ends are close or joining in the joiner/fishplates.  A gap that a wheel can drop slightly into can cause problems at the other end of a rigid long wheelbased loco or vehicle, and on the loco pickup is compromised if a pickup wheel lifts off the rail.  

 

You might be having problems with your couplings as well.  Tension locks are in theory a standard and compatible form of coupler, but in practice there are differences in hook and in bar profile, materials (and hence flexibility), distance protruding beyond the buffer beams, and height above rail level, sometimes even within one manufacturer's range and even in one case on my layout in height between the NEM mountings on each end of one loco!  The bars are supposed to act as buffing plates and hold the buffers of adjoining coupled vehicles apart to prevent buffer locking, but if they override, especially at the tops and bottoms of gradients, the vehicles will be prone to derailment both from buffer locking and from incorrect weight distribution.  

 

My specification is that all locos must be able haul and propel all stock in any formation anywhere on the layout without stalling on dead frogs, which they can and do, but my layout has easier curvature than yours, and is a fiddle yard to terminus affair which does not have the same geometry issues as a closed circle having to line up perfectly.  It is also dead flat.

 

Smooth operation and gentle driving technique in itself helps to prevent derailments by not jerking the stock about needlessly, so as well as well laid smooth track it is important to ensure good pickup to avoid stalls.  Regular cleaning of rail heads and pickup surfaces, and the interface between the turnouts' switch and closure rails that act as electrical connections, is strongly advised.  You may wish to consider wiring across these connections to avoid problems; I haven't found it to be an issue if things are kept clean and carbon deposit buildup cleared with a file, but your layout has more turnouts than mine.  

 

Make sure that debris does not accumulate in the flangeways of the turnouts, between the running rail and the plastic check rails (especially after you've ballasted the track!), as this can lift flanges, causing pickup problems or derailments as well.  I have a set of pound shop kiddies paint brushes which are u/s for painting anything because they are too stiff and coarse, but are excellent for this job!

 

Can't help much with the wiring mess, sorry; mine's probably just as bad, and it's a rat's nest under the boards.  As the layout is permanently erected it sort of doesn't matter much until things go wrong, when it's easier to replace the wire than attempt to dig it out for a repair; this is not recommended practice and very lazy!  But there is less of it as I don't use point motors and hand change my turnouts, all insulfrogs.  I do have Dapol operating signals, though!

 

Wow! Thanks for your comments. 

 

I’m amazed how many levels the hobby has. When we put the track down on a temporary basis it seemed so easy and everything worked, if with a little help. As we have gone further we have got more critical and less accepting of problems. 

 

The pictures are already the third re-start as I realised mistakes can only be fixed by design.

 

Its raining this weekend, so will put some hours in and see how it goes, i’ll follow the advice you’ve given

 

many thanks!

Edited September 27, 2019 by metijg

Crossovers are reverse curves and therefore "worst case scenario". The Americans actually recommend that you use "the next size up" of pointwork at crossovers.

 

Setrack points - as you are discovering - are extremely tight and that comes with a significant cost. Even Streamline small radium are rather tight. It really helps to use the largest radius pointwork you can - though if you have a cramped area there may be severe constraints. But the tighter the curve the bigger the problems it poses. I have had some nasty experiences with Setrack points in the past.

 

Also what you describe as "frog-shock" could well be a result of very coarse wide flangeways on Setrack points (which then doesn't do its job properly), and something rather tighter on Streamline. I found this 25 years ago , and while I suspect Setrack may have been tightened up since, if you are using old pointwork you might be affected.

 

I would be more than a little tempted to replace the crossover at the back on the Woodland Scenic risers with Streamline, to ease the curves. But if it's all fixed down you may be committed....

 

Electrofrog is more hassle to wire , but greatly reduces stalling . If you can get your head round it - and clearly you have managed to, its worth having. A decent point motor will provide the polarity switch

 

If you have already laid the track, providing a hole through the board for the rod that throws the point will now be very difficult. Always drill these holes before laying the track.  Peco have I think introduced surface mounted motors which may be your only option now

 

The boxfile wiring box looks neat

 

hope this isn't too discouraging...

Alignment of track connecting to the points does not look very straight needs to be a smooth transition 

Many thanks for the support!

 

Luckily it's not too late for anything and i had a good crack at screwing it all up and starting again at the weekend..

 

The positives: 

I replaced the points mentioned in some of the comments  with Hornby express points (i choose these over Peco points to maintain the Settrack spacing etc.) and it works like a dream. They are lovely looking things and even the point motors are a doddle as they are hanging from the track in the foam so they are perfectly positioned. To be honest i may cut similar sized holes in the base board as this direct alignment makes everything so simple (picture)

 

I was given some Backmann wagons to go with a Backmann loco and the whole shabbang looked so good and it negotiated everything at full speed! They really are wonderful models (picture). Running this train showed how versatile the track layout is though, there is a huge amount of variation to be had and adjusting the points in time is a brain teaser in itself. I'm very happy we have something good. 

 

The wiring continues to perform, even though we turned the board over a few times. I'm unhealthily proud of the box file, so I've put a picture of the inside below as well!

 

Two more trestles were added underneath so that the slight dip in the middle has gone

 

The negatives:

Sadly the negatives impact more than the positives..

 

The Hornby Mallard and 0-6-0 pannier cannot negotiate a facing standard settrack point without derailing and the remaining crossover is impossible. The Mallard front bogey goes the wrong way and the middle wheels of the 0-6-0 hit the frog. Happily we now have a complete express point / non facing point route so they can run, but its frustrating. The curved points on the left are pretty temperamental as well. I question if it's the track or the trains at this point.

 

The most time-consuming, annoying, makes you my want to stop it all, thing was the $%^&* point motors! I had a good system of drilling through pilot holes for alignment and the first one went in like a dream, but it was just a false dawn. The pin of the peco point motors is just a smidge bigger than the hole in a Hornby point and the small plastic bit that holds the moving rails together just popped off as the pin came through, followed in quick succession by the spring! While i'm sure a better man could repair them seamlessly, my efforts didn't work. Before i realized what had happened i had destroyed 2 perfectly good LH points.

 

The final part is that one of the boards (we have a sandwich that reflects the evolution of the woodwork) has warped away, so that the siding points are all inaccessible from the bottom. The top board is a very nice piece of wood, so perfectly flat but the original scavenged piece has gone crazy. 

 

End result - much swearing, tea and little progress!!! 

 

Just out of curiosity I'm going to try peco settrack points, while i dont think they'll change the frog-shock much, they should at least be compatible with the point motors. Any suggestions what i can do with spring-less Hornby points, will they take them back and refurbish them?

 

oh - while i'm at it: How do you trim down the point motor pin? That thing must be made of reinforced kryptonite-titanium...!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by metijg

Welcome to world of model railways my friend.  I’ve been back at the hobby for the last 11 years and I still get things wrong regarding track laying and electrics etc.  The hobby can be very frustrating but also very rewarding.  Just keep plugging away and it’ll all come together in the end.  Keep posting too - you’ll get plenty of help on here.  Good luck and regards, Mike.

Edited October 8, 2019 by PaternosterRow

The only thing I can say is ,if your not doing it already ,that you lay the points first and  then match up the track in the chosen local  of track laying .I clamp mine down with netting staples so I can fiddle around to my hearts content though course you can  run stock though it until  they are out .I glue my track down with foam tack glue so it can be ripped up easily .The other thing I do on tight curves leading to a point is to solder it to the point,still using fish plates  then bend .That way the joint is nice and smooth and natural .No idea if this any help so good luck .

A solution to a point that has lost its spring is use a solenoid point motor with an over center spring fitted to it such as the SEEP PM4. A more advanced solution is to use slow motion point motors like a Tortoise or DCC Concepts Cobalt which work off dc rather than ac used for solenoids. The problem you may find with Hornby points is the size of the dead frog leading to locos with limited pick ups stalling.

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The pin of the peco point motors is just a smidge bigger than the hole in a Hornby point and the small plastic bit that holds the moving rails together just popped off as the pin came through, followed in quick succession by the spring! While i'm sure a better man could repair them seamlessly, my efforts didn't work. Before i realized what had happened i had destroyed 2 perfectly good LH points.

 

Invest in a set of broaches. These are fine square bars of ascending sizes, slightly tapers. They are a cutting tool - you insert, turn and they enlarge the hole. When you're down to the handle, you insert the next size up. 

 

They're a rather cool tool for enlarging holes and making them perfectly round. If you don't have the right drill size, a broach should sort it out.

 

And a set of broaches should cost less than a point...