MikeOxon's Pre-Grouping Blog

I contended and still maintain that what we see here is a mix of some recently-painted wagons (dark, possibly with a glossier appearance) and well-worn wagons that have been in traffic a good while and have lost their shine. I note that those are also older types. Two of the darker wagons are iron-framed wagons - the 4-plank wagon can be no more than a couple of years old. The 3-plank wagon with straight end must be old series Lot 284 or later; it's got a low number - 260? Most lots had numbers in continuous runs in various 5-digit blocks but the last three lots (together with some others) are listed by Atkins as "various". Production of 3-plank wagons ceased in 1887; this wagon could be only three years old.

I meant to finish by stating my conviction that they're all red.

Another revelation (for me) from the early 'Broadsheet' No.6 (1981) is that an early painting specification for an Iron Goods Break Van of 1852 states that:

 

"The whole of the van including the wheels, axles, axleboxes, side springs and every part [my italics] .... brown colour and figures as might be directed,"  The scheme for other wagons is stated to be similar.

 

The same article also states that:

 

"Just when the red livery was introduced is still to be discovered, but the evidence suggests brown from the 1840s until the middle 1860s. It's tempting to speculate that the red was an all over colour scheme [my italics] giving a continuity of single colour livery throughout the G.W.R's existence."

 

All this is strong support for all over red, rather than red with black underframe, as some have suggested.

 

Mike

Edited January 23, 2020 by MikeOxon

Oh bother.

 

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Oh bother.

 

I'm sure you are not alone

For some reason that I cannot recollect, the Iron Mink on the left escaped the black paint. Also, I was asserting recently that I'd painted the roofs of my Iron Minks red as they were iron so why would they be painted differently to the rest of the wagon? (I've since seen conclusive evidence that the roofs of Iron Minks in grey with 25" initials were white.)

 

I must be loosing my grip.

Always remember the first rule of railway modelling - it's your railway ...

True, but I want my models to be as historically correct as the available information and the compromises of scale and gauge permit. That's Rule 1 for me. Rule 2 is to remember that other people's rulebooks may have a different Rule 1.

Someone suggested on Castle Aching that it would be an idea to look at wagons that were known to be red from other companies and see how they appeared on the old emulsions.  I can think of several reasons why this would not work but if you could find a photograph of a known grey wagon, eg., Cambrian against a known red wagon, eg. GWR 1890, then you might have a definitive answer.

That was me. I don't think it would work in fact unless one was comparing wagons in similar condition - probably only ex-works would give a fair comparison.

It could work if you had several wagons in the photo, and several photos, all of the same two companies.  

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

True, but I want my models to be as historically correct as the available information and the compromises of scale and gauge permit. That's Rule 1 for me. Rule 2 is to remember that other people's rulebooks may have a different Rule 1.

The trouble is that the 'available information' is inconclusive, so we each have to make our own judgements.

For what it's worth, my own view of the photos shown above is that all of the wagons would be red.

My understanding is that the grey livery came in with the large 25" lettering in 1904 (or perhaps with the cast plates in the mid-late 1890's). The wagons all show the smaller G.W.R lettering which apart from brake vans (which are reported to have been grey for a period prior to the switch over) I've assumed would be red.

Ian

PS luckily I've adopted an all over colour for both my red and grey wagons.

Thanks Mike, good to see some opinions from the Broad Gauge debates.

 

In the two articles you quote, I note the words "surmise" and "speculate" respectively. I appreciate that, since overly assertive statements about liveries always make me a bit sceptical (I don't mean anyone here).

 

The evidence is certainly building for all over red. Maybe the Barry Railway really were unique.

 

@Compound2632 that image of your wagons is superb!

 

 

15 hours ago, ChrisN said:

It could work if you had several wagons in the photo, and several photos, all of the same two companies.  

 

Interesting idea. If there was a significant number of photos and a clear consistent pattern of difference it would at least indicate some sort of difference in the painting scheme. I suppose the trouble would be whether the difference was in fact red vs grey, or simply "medium grey" vs "darker medium grey" or two coats of varnish vs three coats. 

 

It's tempting to have a go though!

 

PS: Just had a quick peruse of my wagon livery folder. One stumbling block: This was pre-pooling, so there are few photos showing GWR wagons with other companies' wagons.

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Mikkel

 

On 23/01/2020 at 12:18, Compound2632 said:

........The 3-plank wagon with straight end must be old series Lot 284 or later; it's got a low number - 260? Most lots had numbers in continuous runs in various 5-digit blocks but the last three lots (together with some others) are listed by Atkins as "various". Production of 3-plank wagons ceased in 1887; this wagon could be only three years old.

 

I recently came across the spreadsheet of wagon and carriage numbers on the GWR E-list.  Wagon No. 260 appears as one of a batch of 200 wagons built in 1884 to Lot 320, soon after 'rounded ends' ceased in 1883.  It would, therefore, have been fairly new when this photo was taken.  It's a pity that more numbers are not decipherable.

I am guilty of re-roasting this chestnut ...

 

The main question is whether the red was applied all over, but it inevitably engages the question of the date of the transition to grey.

 

As a consequence I was directed here.

 

My twopenneth is:

 

Re the Broadsheet photograph:

 

- If this showed a mix of grey and red wagons, I would agree that the darker ones are the red, however,

 

- I agree with Stephen.  All the wagons are red. The lighter ones are faded and the darker, glossier ones are newer

 

- The G. W. R is applied to the left in all cases, congruent with the circa 1890 assumed date. From, IIRC c.1893-5, the G. W. R moved to the lower right.  There is no suggestion in any of the scant sources of grey wagons (other than brake vans) in the lower left letter period.

 

This post, however, seems most significant to me:

 

 'Broadsheet' No.6 (1981) is that an early painting specification for an Iron Goods Break Van of 1852 states that:

 

"The whole of the van including the wheels, axles, axleboxes, side springs and every part [my italics] .... brown colour and figures as might be directed,"  The scheme for other wagons is stated to be similar.

 

The idea that all over grey was a change in colour, not painting practice, appeals to me.  I also wondered about those grey brake vans in the 1860s to 1890s period.  Were they all over grey or grey with black running gear and/or solebars?

 

The idea that, pre the introduction of red in the 1860s, GWR wagons were all over brown (including the wheels!) again causes the 

me to question whether the GW would do anything than paint a single colour all over when turning to red. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-