Wenlock's Blog

Thanks everyone for their responses/contributions, it's given me lots to think about

 

I've done a quick sketch of the kind of thing I was proposing, obviously the turnout would link the two lines in the drawing.

 

Sketch of proposed board

 

The idea of the front view blocker behind the "Beverage & Snacks" area is to restrict the view to only that from under the bridge.  I've found at shows that people are just as interested in what's happening in the fiddle yard as on the scenic part of the layout and as Al & I operate the layout from the front we get in the way!  The idea would be that we could both stand in front of this new board ( obviously when socially distancing is over!), leaving a clear view of both the main layout and fiddle yard for the paying public.  The fiddle yard operator would also have far less to to do during shunting maneuvers and consequently spend more time talking to people, which is something we both enjoy. 

 

 

15 hours ago, Dave John said:

 

But of course you will end up making it scenic, then you will need another scenic break, and er, another scenic section..... 

 

Hi Dave, I take your point, but hopefully as the only way this area can be viewed is from under the bridge it'll be too far away to matter!

 

15 hours ago, Middlepeak said:

Dave,

 

An interesting idea, which would appear to solve most of your problems. I just wondered how this area would be screened from public view at the front. If it's open to the audience there, the problem is simply transferred from one hole in the backscene to another. I'm therefore guessing that the only public view would be through the bridge, in which case this bit of scenery could almost be fully enclosed in a box. You would have to experiment a bit with lighting, and you would need to have an additional mask across the end of the fiddle yard. It really depends on the viewing angle for punters. Your photos seem to be taken from over the layout, rather than behind an imaginary barrier line, which might be confusing me.

 

Anyway, in my view - go for it!

 

Geraint

 

Hi Geraint, hopefully my sketch will illustrate that i'm planning on doing more or less exactly as you suggest!  Hopefully the front view blocker will preclude the need for a complete box.

 

8 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Sounds like a good idea Dave. To avoid the issues discussed above, I wonder if something like this could be done, i.e. provide an angled view that does not allow us to look into the fiddle yard but still offers a peak at the new scenic section.

 

 

You would have to decorate the rear side of the overbridge, but I'm guessing you would do that anyway as it would look odd for the operator with a scenic section with an unfinished bridge.

 

Hi Mikkel, now an angled area is something I hadn't considered!  It does have the disadvantage that as you say I would need to decorate the rear side of the bridge and I would still need to mask the exit of the line from the new scenic section into the Tea?Coffee area

 

8 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

 

PS: My real agenda here is that I'd like to see you build an indication of the village of Sherton Abbas, which we have never in fact seen!  So the divide between the scenic and hidden section on the new board could be a structure, e.g. the maltings, or a hint of the village. 

 

Another cunning Plan! 

 

Unfortunately (fortunately for me!) the town of Sherton Abbas is about a mile from the station, so won't fit on a 3 foot board   The dominate feature of the landscape in this area is the Abbey which is situated close to the center of the town and can be seen above the hedgerow to the right of the layout.

 

8 hours ago, Tricky said:

Or......keep the fiddle yard and paint it black, as done very successfully by Giles Flavell (and others). The eye automatically assumes black is off stage. His is very open to the elements but the illusion works. 

 

Hi Richard, that's a useful tip that may employ on the existing fiddle yard.  I still think the addition of the turnout will stop a lot of the faffing about with alignment bolts 

 

8 hours ago, Simond said:

Possible a strip curtain made from black bin liners, suitable arranged a little behind the bridge.

 

something like this but much smaller, and black!

 

 

this would save you having to paint your fingers...

 

hth

Simon

 

Hi Simon, thanks for that, the strip idea is something I might use for the exit of the proposed board into the existing fiddle yard.

 

8 hours ago, GWR57xx said:

I like the idea of being able to see the line continuing somewhere off-stage, but on the negative side at exhibitions you operate from the front of the layout by the fiddle yard from where you can easily talk to the viewers watching the action on the scenic boards. With the proposed extension in place you will be more remote from those viewers, and also remote from the action you are controlling in the station area. Would this be a problem?

 

Good question!  Hopefully my drawing and preamble will clarify the situation.  Certainly one of my objectives is to release the fiddle yard operator from repetitive fiddle yard movements allowing more time to chat to the public.

 

8 hours ago, TheQ said:

A drop down painted  back scene board for each bridge arch would be a solution.  Or as some one said paint it black and.... 

 

Black mamba rubber gloves 

 

Very stylish!

 

7 hours ago, rockershovel said:

From your description of the fiddle yard operations, it sounds as though you require a traverser, or sector plate...

 

That's exactly what I've got  My problem is I don't like people seeing it!

 

7 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

A good idea which solves the initial problem, but you've now got far more fiddleyard than layout, just seems a tad unbalanced IMHO, and as you stated you're short of space to set it up in its extended form.

Personally, I'd just move the locking mechanism to a position where it doesn't show, it's only for alignment purposes so it's ultimate position doesn't matter.

 

Mike.

 

Hi Mike, I've found that unless the bolts are either side of the track I can get problems with vertical alignment.  The closer the bolts are to the rail head the more this issue is eliminated.  The scenic section of the layout is 14 feet 6 inches long, so even with this proposed addition it means a 1/3rd, 2/3rd split between fiddle yard and main layout, which doesn't seem unreasonable.

 

7 hours ago, Ian Smith said:

Dave,

Whilst I can see the logic for adding the intermediate board (from an operational point of view more than a visual one), I for one never consider what goes (or be seen) on in a fiddle yard as a distraction of the layout as a whole.  From a viewing perspective, the time taken during the action of realigning the fiddle yard roads is probably realistic as stock would have to clear the point, a signal made to the signalman to indicate that it was safe to throw the points (which would have a FPL on them too so not a single lever action) before the shunting move could continue.

 

 

Hi Ian, although I agree about the need for time to go by before the train re-emerges from under the bridge, I still don't like the issue of my fingers faffing about with the bolts or the stock on view waiting in line to enter stage. There is also the issue of trains having to accelerate from stationary in the fiddle yard to the required speed for the scenic section in about 6 inches!

 

8 hours ago, Ian Smith said:

Originally, the fiddle yards boards on Modbury were painted white (I thought it would help being able to see things in a sometimes dark exhibition hall).  What I soon realised was that being white (or light coloured) drew attention to them when viewed through the mouse-holes on the scenic section (especially on photographs).  I therefore repainted them in a dark grey and they instantly became less obvious.  Clearly my mouse-holes for 2mm scale are considerably smaller than your 7mm scale ones, so that "solution" may not suit Sherton Abbas.

 

Definitely something I shall consider doing to the existing fiddle yard.

 

8 hours ago, Ian Smith said:

If you do decide to go ahead with the additional board, could it be better to use a Y point configuration?  That should require less length and provide the two angled diverging roads to meet the existing scenic trackwork?

 

I did consider using a Y point and as you point out it would mean the board would be shorter.  The only drawback with the Y configuration is that I want it to look as if the main line being the primary route is fairly straight and the yard route is a deviation from this.

 

7 hours ago, 5&9Models said:

It’s a reasonable idea but for all the effort it would involve I’d rather just see more fantastic layout! Quite like the curtain idea though.

 

If I get round to extending the workshop (negotiations with Mrs Wenlock are in hand, but don't hold your breath!)  then this may well happen!

 

7 hours ago, BlackRat said:

I've used a black 'rip stop' type material cut into very thing strips bit like the warehouse door above......like a very floppy tooth comb.

 

The top strip is affixed above the yard entrance/ exit with double sided tape and the material adjusted so it's just BELOW rail height.

 

It works fine in 4mm so I can't see 7 being a problem.

 

Ive addd an extra layer now, and another under the overbridge.

 

Hi Neil, If it wasn't for the desirability of reducing the number of fiddle yard movements, then this is probably the route I would go down.

 

7 hours ago, Northroader said:

You’ve taken pictures to show the problem by placing your camera above the tracks, not the normal viewpoint. Idle bystanders would be further over at more of an angle, and not so aware of your pinkies. If you placed some form of screening on the layout side in front of the bridge, such as a few more trees, the view would be even less obvious.

 

You are quite right in that I have highlighted the problem by choosing  that view point, however its surprising just how much of the fiddle yard can be seen even from the far end of the scenic section!  Trees as view blockers would certainly help the problem, but at the expense of hiding the brickwork on the bridge which I rather like

 

5 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

As one of the SA operators I have to concur with Dave that the faff of moving the sector plate becomes quite noticeable after a few hours of shunting! Ones fingers soon become fed up of sliding bolts in and out and heaving the board into alignment. So I for one welcome our new 3 foot baseboard addition although I accept that it will increase the setup/tear down time somewhat! That said, we are now a well-oiled military unit compared to the Laurel and Hardy-like performance of the first few outings.

 

Hi Al, glad you approve  I'm sure you'll agree that having somewhere to put coffee and cake is the main consideration!

 

5 hours ago, kitpw said:

I took the liberty of sketching on top of one your pictures - a skew bridge in the new 3' section would "throttle down" the view to a mere hint of a fiddle yard (off scene Y juntion in the road dropping down to the station?).  The goods yard might need a spur or a trap point so I added one of those as well.  The natural lie of the existing trackwork suggests that the handing of the B6 point might flip to a B6 right hand - but depends on the geometry and fiddle yard entry.  Just a thought... hope it might be helpful in resolving the question.  I look forward to seeing Sherton Abbas "IRL" when better times return.

Kit PW

 

My main concern with this approach is whether it would be likely to have two bridges in such close proximity to each other in a rural area?

 

Hopefully this lock down will be over by the time I'm next due to exhibit the layout, which is in October!

 

4 hours ago, Quasimodo said:

Hello Dave, I have been looking back at a few photographs of your wonderful layout, that I took at Telford last Autumn, and I have to say that, in my opinion, while your 3' addition may improve your ease of operation, I do not believe that it will either add or detract to the visual appeal of the layout.

Your masterpiece, like any great novel, painting or motion picture, still requires the audience to use their little grey matter in order to interpret the overall image. We have to shut out or suspend our reality in order to enter the 'reality' of the model. I include two of my photographs which show the bridge as seen by an exhibition viewer, albeit one who is somewhat shorter than yourself, which show, I believe, that your extension is unnecessary visually especially compared to such things as the ceiling of the hall - about which you can do nothing. 

 

All that being said, if the extension improves operation then why not?

 

Thanks very much for the positive comments!  I think all this discussion is helping me realise that improving ease of operation at shows is a major consideration. 

 

3 hours ago, One32 said:

Dave

Is there a specific reason for choosing 3ft? If it is not to be used in your workshop could you make it longer and would that allow you to incorporate an engine shed on a siding from the mainline towards the front of the board? This could be a stand alone scenic diorama and would add extra operating interest to the layout with engines staying overnight and loco coal in / out.

Ralph

Hi Ralph, in an ideal world your drawing is more or less exactly what I'd like to do!  In my imagination on the "other side of the bridge there is a head shunt, engine shed and turntable.  My main reason for choosing the 3 foot long board is purely pragmatic in that we are running out of room to put things in the Transit van!

 

2 hours ago, rprodgers said:

Fantastic layout, again I saw this at Telford last year and had the pleasure of meeting you.

Thanks!

 

2 hours ago, rprodgers said:

*Your main concerns seems to be what can be viewed by the public, who unless they stand at an angle wont notice / or deliberately want to notice....fiddle yards are interesting!

I completely agree that fiddle yards are interesting and I can never resist having a look!  The idea of the proposed board is that I'll have somewhere to stand, ,but not block the public's view of either the fiddle yard or main layout, just the transition between them

 

3 hours ago, rprodgers said:

To increase the illusion would the new baseboard have the line going through a cutting with both sides of the cutting included?

 

Yes, exactly like that!

 

3 hours ago, rprodgers said:

* Or you are just bored in lockdown  

 

Yes!

 

Thanks again to you all for your thoughts and ideas!

 

Best wishes

 

Dave

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I thought an engine shed board had been the plan anyway?

Hi Stephen, that's still the long term aim if I get to extend the work shop  Think of this as a short to medium term solution!

Well done responding to all that Dave, must have taken you an hour!  

 

I like your proposal with the cutting. Now, about that village... 

27 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Well done responding to all that Dave, must have taken you an hour!  

Thanks Mikkel, It wasn’t far off!  Still if people put in the effort to post their thoughts it would be churlish of me not to reply.  It’s not as if I’ve got much to do at the moment 

 

30 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

I like your proposal with the cutting. Now, about that village... 

Lol! One day

Of course, you could simply ballast the track...

The thoughts here are assuming the layout and fiddleyard stay in the Railex exhibition configuration. Part of the ‘problem’ is the visibility of the fiddleyard through the bridge emphasised by the unpainted wood of the baseboard. You can reduce this by painting it the same colors as used in the layout trackwork. An easy validation check will be a piece of lining wallpaper painted track colour and laid flat on the existing track. This should immediately ‘tone down’ the off scene view, and you’ll get a feel for its viability and I think you’ll notice a marked reduction in the layout and off scene demarcation.

Make sure the fiddleyard lighting is balanced with the layout, though it could be reduced slightly in the fiddleyard. If fiddleyard lighting is brighter than the layout, again it will highlight through the bridge.

 

I think a simple diffused green backdrop would work along the back of the sector plate. It needs to be the same colour palette as the layout scenery but with a hint of blue or grey added, to give recession, or depth to the scene. It only needs to be a couple of inches higher than the bridge aperture so that you can’t see the top edge. Again you can check this with lining paper mocked up.

 

This should leave you with the ‘appearance’ of sidings through the bridge, not ideal, but the mind will likely accept the visual aspect, don’t add the thought process that they wouldn’t be there! If the tests work then the layout end of the sector plate will need ballasting and colouring to match the layout exit.

9 hours ago, Regularity said:

Of course, you could simply ballast the track...

This is something I may well do so the layout looks better in its present “home installation” set up. 

9 hours ago, PMP said:

The thoughts here are assuming the layout and fiddleyard stay in the Railex exhibition configuration. Part of the ‘problem’ is the visibility of the fiddleyard through the bridge emphasised by the unpainted wood of the baseboard. You can reduce this by painting it the same colors as used in the layout trackwork. An easy validation check will be a piece of lining wallpaper painted track colour and laid flat on the existing track. This should immediately ‘tone down’ the off scene view, and you’ll get a feel for its viability and I think you’ll notice a marked reduction in the layout and off scene demarcation.

Make sure the fiddleyard lighting is balanced with the layout, though it could be reduced slightly in the fiddleyard. If fiddleyard lighting is brighter than the layout, again it will highlight through the bridge.

 

I think a simple diffused green backdrop would work along the back of the sector plate. It needs to be the same colour palette as the layout scenery but with a hint of blue or grey added, to give recession, or depth to the scene. It only needs to be a couple of inches higher than the bridge aperture so that you can’t see the top edge. Again you can check this with lining paper mocked up.

 

This should leave you with the ‘appearance’ of sidings through the bridge, not ideal, but the mind will likely accept the visual aspect, don’t add the thought process that they wouldn’t be there! If the tests work then the layout end of the sector plate will need ballasting and colouring to match the layout exit.

Hi Paul,

Thanks for those suggestions   Some experimentation is needed, but as anything would be an improvement on the current situation it’s definitely worth the effort.  I think the route I’m probably going to take is to modify the existing fiddle yard along the lines that you suggest, which will improve the layout during home use.  I will also build the proposed new board incorporating the turnout for exhibition use, mainly because it will make shunting the yard much less labour intensive and Al and I will have somewhere to put our coffee!

 

BW

 

Dave

Edited May 2, 2020 by wenlock

If you are going to the trouble of making an extra board that can only be used at shows I'd be tempted to go the whole hog and do another full size baseboard with that engine shed scene you talked about. Would an extra board fit in your normal transport?

 

Few of the pictures we didn't use in the MRJ article,

 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, queensquare said:

If you are going to the trouble of making an extra board that can only be used at shows I'd be tempted to go the whole hog and do another full size baseboard with that engine shed scene you talked about. Would an extra board fit in your normal transport?

Wot he sed.

An extra board in the same format as the rest of the layout definitely wouldn't fit in the standard transit Dave's been hiring, alas, as it's already getting fairly tight by the time stock boxes and overnight bags are in. It might be possible to squeeze in a smaller one, though.

3 hours ago, queensquare said:

 

 

 

 

 

More often than not the eye is going to be following a train in or out of the tunnel, which obscures most of the opening. In the picture above the hole is only more noticeable because the sky is missing. 

48 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

An extra board in the same format as the rest of the layout definitely wouldn't fit in the standard transit Dave's been hiring, alas, as it's already getting fairly tight by the time stock boxes and overnight bags are in. It might be possible to squeeze in a smaller one, though.

 

That's a shame, I do like a small shed scene.
 

Jerry

There's always the "load another board in Al's car" option I suppose.

Great pictures Jerry!  That camera of yours got everywhere, The view of the horses with the abbey in the background is one I’ve never seen before
 

I think to do the shed scene justice I would need at least 6 feet of baseboard and ideally about 8 feet, which would mean an additional pair of four foot boards.  This definitely wouldn’t fit in the van and I don’t think Al would forgive me if we had to lump about 2 more sections of the layout when setting up at shows!  I think the shed scene will have to wait until I can extend the workshop, which probably won’t happen until I finish work and treat as a retirement project

 

BW

 

Dave

1 minute ago, Barry Ten said:

There's always the "load another board in Al's car" option I suppose.

Our posts must have crossed!  Do you fancy buying a bigger car, we’re now talking two new boards!

2 minutes ago, wenlock said:

Great pictures Jerry!  That camera of yours got everywhere, The view of the horses with the abbey in the background is one I’ve never seen before
 

Dave

 

If you remember I used the highly sophisticated technique of plonk, press and hope for the best! 

 

I have to make a trip to the post office at some point next week so I will post you a stick with them all on.

 

 

 

 

45 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

 

More often than not the eye is going to be following a train in or out of the tunnel, which obscures most of the opening. In the picture above the hole is only more noticeable because the sky is missing. 

Hi Richard, in that view I tend to agree that all that’s really needed is some “sky” which could be represented by a bit of pale blue cloth at the back of the existing fiddle yard.  The “problem” is more apparent when shunting the yard, where the eye follows the train reversing under the bridge and then spots the arch over the mainline revealing all the off stage fiddle yard.

 

BW

 

Dave

3 minutes ago, queensquare said:

 

If you remember I used the highly sophisticated technique of plonk, press and hope for the best! 

 

I have to make a trip to the post office at some point next week so I will post you a stick with them all on.

 

 

 

 

Well the plonk and press technique certainly worked!  I’m delighted with the pictures and how the article looked in MRJ

 

I love to see the rest on the memory stick, once I’ve uploaded them I can send you back the stick.

 

Thanks again for taking the pics!
 

BW

 

Dave

19 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

An extra board in the same format as the rest of the layout definitely wouldn't fit in the standard transit Dave's been hiring, alas, as it's already getting fairly tight by the time stock boxes and overnight bags are in. It might be possible to squeeze in a smaller one, though.

Roof rack and bungees?

 

For the passenger that is...... the extra board going on the front seat ......

18 hours ago, queensquare said:

post you a stick with them all on.

 

18 hours ago, wenlock said:

I can send you back the stick.

 

Ah ! So that's where it went to ! 

 

( Private joke ! ) 

 

G

1 hour ago, BlackRat said:

Roof rack and bungees?

 

For the passenger that is...... the extra board going on the front seat ......

I’ll get Al a leather hat and goggles   Tally ho!

1 hour ago, bgman said:

 

 

Ah ! So that's where it went to ! 

 

( Private joke ! ) 

 

G

If they were proper “memory” sticks they’d remind me to post them back again!

 

BW

 

Dave

Following your displaying of the layout at Taunton Member's Day, and other than you wish to ease the operation of the fiddle yard and traverser, I would suggest raising the height of the layout by at least 12 inches.

 

That way, no one, but you, will be able to see the bridge, let alone look through it.