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Black Friday Black Five - Hornby's Super Detail 5MTs


Silver Sidelines

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I have lost count of how many Black Fridays there are in November but I used each Friday (and some of the other days) to stock up on more of Hornby’s Super Detail Black Fives.

 

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One of Hornby’s newer models with Combined Top Feed, 45190 aka R2904

 

I bought 45190 my first super detail Black Five back in 2011.  I was underwhelmed by how lightweight the engine was and how little it could haul.  As a result it spent the next few years resting at the end of the engine shed headshunt.  Most recently I have been following Dan’s Stranraer Harbour thread on RMweb and have been inspired to revisit my Black Five.  http:// https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140736-now-with-videos-stranraer-‘themed’-loft-layout-1959-64/

 

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Some older models, 44781 and 44871 aka Hornby R2686A&B

 

I don’t think that I had ever looked inside the engine but the front end of the boiler and smoke box is empty.  Despite what it doesn’t say on the box, all the super detail models that I have seen are DC ready.  The early models have an eight pin socket in the front of the boiler whilst the later models have had the socket moved to the tender.  To make room for the digital chip the front of the boiler and smokebox are empty—even for the models where the socket is in the tender.  Of course running a 12 volt DC analogue layout I can take advantage of the space reserved for the chip and add some lead ballast.

 

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A newer model, 44694 aka Hornby R3323

 

Out of the box the Hornby Black Five weighs between 240 and 255gm. Hornby have produced a large number of models each subtly different.  Having the digital socket in the engine or in the tender will account for part of this difference in weight but I think there must be other factors in play which I have not been able to identify.  (Different recipe for the metal in the chassis?)  Sadly I didn’t keep detailed records of the start weights of all the different models but I thought 44694 was a 240gm engine whilst 44908 was a 255gm model. 

 

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44694 at 240gm

 

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44908 at 255gm

 

My layout is rather up and down and experimenting showed that I needed an engine weight approaching 295gm.  Again after more experimentation I found it possible to add small rectangles of lead to the smoke box totalling around 40gm.  To get even closer to my target value I also added lead beneath the digital socket and in one case inside the top of the boiler.

 

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c10gm lead beneath the socket covered with insulating tape

 

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c15gm lead along the top of the boiler – clipped into the top feed and held by insulating tape

 

I cut pieces of lead from ‘1/8th inch sheet’ as used by roofers for flashing.  For slotting into the smoke box the pieces must be less than 23mm length.  I used a selection of widths starting at 18mm maximum, through 17,16, 14.5 down to 13 or 12mm.  Depending on the actual thickness of the lead sheets you might be able to go down to less than 10mm.  The largest sheets have to be slid in first at an angle to avoid the chimney spigot.  The smaller sheets can then follow added horizontally.  I have deliberately left the sheets loose so that they could be removed at a later date. 

 

Does all this weight in the front of the boiler make the engine front heavy?  Yes, but......  The engine to tender connection for both the old and new models, probably more by accident than design, transfers the weight of the tender to the engine and helps to hold the back of the engine down. 

For the newer models with the digital chip in the tender there is even more space in the engine for lead!

 

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45190 aka Hornby R2904 a newer model with the socket in the tender

 

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c20gm lead in place of the digital socket - held in place with double sided tape.

 

As noted above Hornby have produced a range of models and I have attempted to catalogue those that I might have seen in service in the late 1950s and 1960s omitting any weathered models.  (I doubt this list is complete as I keep spotting ‘new’ Hornby models.)

 

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Hornby BR era Super Detail Black Fives

 

I have listed the models by running number showing also the Shed Code printed on the model.  I have then listed the different liveries that were carried.  I suspect that the plain black livery was only applied in the middle to late 1960s just before the end of steam.  Similarly some models have the top lamp iron moved down and to the right.  This again was an end of steam feature associated with running beneath the overhead wires dating from the early 1960s.

 

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Lamp Iron centre top 44668 aka Hornby R2322

 

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Lamp Iron right hand down a bit 44781 aka Hornby R2686A

 

The Black Fives were introduced by Sir William Stanier before the Second World War and were completed in the 1950s under the direction of HG Ivatt.  The engines were built by both the LMS and BR (LMR), and outside contractors, with the result that there were numerous differences between class members.  Hornby have modelled three types of boiler, distinguishable by the position of the top feed: forwards, rear or combined. 

 

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Top Feeds, rear (top) and forward (bottom)

 

There was also a difference in the wheel spacing on some engines between the centre and rear drivers – which might have been due to a difference in firebox size.  Hornby have cunningly engineered a plastic insert slotted into the mazac chassis to carry the rear wheel bearings which can be turned through 180 degrees to provide either the required long or short wheel spacing.  I have identified three different tender types: fully riveted, part riveted where the sides have been smoothed, and fully welded where both the back and sides are smooth.  In addition tenders come with an Early Emblem, or a Late Crest.

 

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Fully Riveted tender

 

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Part Riveted tender

 

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Fully Welded tender

 

During their short lifetime it is quite likely that whilst visiting ‘the works’ engines might receive tenders and boilers different from the ones originally fitted.  I have carried out some random checks of pictures on Flickr and to date have not come across any conflicts with Hornby’s models.

 

When you have added all the lead possible, the engine may still underperform.  Remember it is Hornby and you do need to check and adjust the phosphor bronze pickups or wipers on the tender wheels.  Frequently these springy bits of metal stick out so far that it is reminiscent of driving an old car with the handbrake on.  (If it is an analogue layout and the track is clean you probably don’t need the tender pickups anyway and they can be flattened.) 

 

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Tender bottom plate

 

Further sources of unwanted friction are the axle slots in the plastic keeper (bottom plate) for the tender.  I had to run a drill bit through the slots and shave some of the plastic from around the openings for the socket and the rear coupling.  I first noticed the issue with one of the later models and wondered whether it might be due to wear on the factory moulding tools resulting in an oversize moulding with reduced clearances.

 

On the whole I have been very impressed with the Super Detail Black Fives.  The cab wind deflectors are particularly delicate and don’t cope very well with travel by Royal Mail but that is common to a lot of Hornby’s models. 

 

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The Christmas Quiz model 44694 aka Hornby R3323

 

The only real problem model that I have come across has been 44694.  When it first arrived I thought of posting its picture for a Christmas Quiz – spot what was wrong.  Even before it arrived I had discovered that the large steam dome was likely to be back to front.  I had not factored in that the cab wind deflectors would be upside down.  For good measure I also had to reattach the whistle that had been broken off in transit.  Fixing the dome was easier than I imagined.  I made a pilot hole by rotating a tiny drill bit by hand into the plastic spigot inside the boiler.  I then reamed the hole out with a Philips screwdriver until the dome popped off.  If you are careful there will still be enough of the original plastic spigot to pop it back in place, after rotating through 180 degrees.  The cab wind shields will have to stay upside down – who is going to notice?

 

Lastly two of my favourite models; 45156 Ayrshire Yeomanry and 45157 Glasgow Highlander.  The latter was a real Scottish engine shedded in Glasgow for most of its life.  The former spent the final years of its life in the Manchester area. 

 

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45157 Glasgow Highlander aka Hornby R2449

 

Hornby correctly depict 45156 with its British Railways combined dome and top feed – not to be confused with the currently preserved engine, originally numbered 45337, which now carries the Ayrshire Yeomanry name (and number) but which has a separate dome and top feed.

 

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45156 Ayrshire Yeomanry aka Hornby R2555

 

Addendum 03.01.21

 

Since publishing this Post I have gleaned further information on the different models produced by Hornby. 

 

It had escaped my notice that some models have fluted coupling rods and some have plain rods.  Also some engines have an addition to the left hand cross head which I am told is left over from when early engines were fitted with vacuum pumps.

 

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Modified Cross Head with connection for vacuum pump.

 

I have also updated ‘The Table’ above with some details of the sound fitted engines.  The first two sound models came with LokSound v3.5 chips and will run and play sound on analogue.  The newest sound model is TTS fitted and presumably will run on analogue but only play sounds on digital.

 

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Another Quality Control issue

 

One of my latest purchases did not run well – the wheels beneath the cab seeming to jump around.  On closer inspection I could see that the two rear sand pipes had been fitted on the wrong sides.  Instead of the pipes being recessed behind the coupling rods they were stuck outwards pressing against the rods.  These were factory fitted pipes and I was unsure that would be able to rectify without cutting through the pipes.  I used a very sharp blade and started to cut the glue around the junction between the pipe and the sand box.  The glue cut quite easily and after not a lot of effort the pipe (with its spigot) could be prised free.  I don’t know what glue Hornby had used but it did not seem to have fused the plastic parts together.  Perhaps the sand pipes are nylon which would not fuse to the plastic sandbox?

 

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45458 - yet another Scottish Engine

 

One more picture of a Scottish engine!  Hornby have 45458 with a Scottish Region blue background to its smokebox number and shed plates.  The 66A shed number is Glasgow Polmadie from where the engine was withdrawn.  It seems a strange choice of shed plate as a web search suggests that 45458 was a 63A Perth based engine for most of its life and may only have been at Polmadie for a few months before withdrawal.

 

Edited by Silver Sidelines
Updated Table

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Very useful information, Ray. Thanks for the effort of putting it all together, and for showing details of your modifications.

 

Some points about the shed codes on the models:

 

- 45116 with an early emblem should probably be 65B (St Rollox). It was there at least from Nationalisation to March 1957. The late crest was introduced in 1957 - I believe there’s discussion of the actual date elsewhere on here. It’s probable it would have carried the early emblem and a 26B (Agecroft) plate for a while after its transfer from St Rollox till its next repaint.

 

- 45156 with a 26A plate and the late crest is a correct combination. However, it was also a transfer from St Rollox (65B). It went to Newton Heath (26A) in April 1957. It had been at St Rollox at least from Nationalisation in 1948, so not always a Manchester area engine.

 

- 45157 was never shedded at 65A (Eastfield). It was a St Rollox (65B) engine all the way at least from Nationalisation to withdrawal at the end of 1962. It was the only one of the four named engines (five if you believe 45155 was ever named) that I didn’t see.

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Hi Ray, thanks for that insightful overview.

 

QC issues aside, I'm impressed with how Hornby have sought to accommodate the detail differences over the years. I imagine they can only do that on the biggest sellers, where regular re-releases and updates are worth the effort. Nice to see, though.

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What you describe a 'part riveted tender' is a work of fiction on Hornby's part. It has welded tank sides and ariveted rear.

 

This is what I believe it should look like:1783753125_Black544765tenderfromabove.JPG.a0cb2983f9ef3c3feb24b10555723f71.JPGimage.png.b3a2d73d4e72c6d5e350f0c8023b2f6b.png

This is a Hornby model of a forward top feed loco 9I can't recall the original donor model) with Comet double chimney, AWS gear and a part-welded tended.

 

And of course Hornby keep repeating the same basic errors, for example the 'panel' under the smokebox being misplaced and the 'skirt' at the base of the body of the tender tank.

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9 hours ago, pH said:

Very useful information, Ray. Thanks for the effort of putting it all together, and for showing details of your modifications.

 

Some points about the shed codes on the models:

 

- 45116 with an early emblem should probably be 65B (St Rollox). It was there at least from Nationalisation to March 1957. The late crest was introduced in 1957 - I believe there’s discussion of the actual date elsewhere on here. It’s probable it would have carried the early emblem and a 26B (Agecroft) plate for a while after its transfer from St Rollox till its next repaint.

 

- 45156 with a 26A plate and the late crest is a correct combination. However, it was also a transfer from St Rollox (65B). It went to Newton Heath (26A) in April 1957. It had been at St Rollox at least from Nationalisation in 1948, so not always a Manchester area engine.

 

- 45157 was never shedded at 65A (Eastfield). It was a St Rollox (65B) engine all the way at least from Nationalisation to withdrawal at the end of 1962. It was the only one of the four named engines (five if you believe 45155 was ever named) that I didn’t see.

 

Thank you pH - You sound to be of a similar vintage to myself. 

 

I have to own up to knowing very little about Black Fives.  I would comment that my ABC locoshed book for 1959 (supposed correct to November 1958) shows 45116 at 26B but by November 1960 it is shown moving on to 16D.

 

Yes 45156 was still at Newton Heath at the end of 1958.

 

And as you note 45157 was at 65B both in 1958 and 1960.

 

It has been an interesting exercise trying to read shed plates off models, off pictures of models and even off old pictures of the real engines (with or without a date).

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10 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Hi Ray, thanks for that insightful overview.

 

QC issues aside, I'm impressed with how Hornby have sought to accommodate the detail differences over the years. I imagine they can only do that on the biggest sellers, where regular re-releases and updates are worth the effort. Nice to see, though.

Thank you Mikkel for your continuing support.

 

I have been impressed by how relatively trouble free the Hornby Black FIves appear to be.  The dome issue with 44694 (R3323) is well documented and I suspect the model was one of the first to be produced after Hornby took their business away from Sanda Khan.  Certainly the box code doesn't have an SK prefix.  Perhaps the 'new ladies' were still learning the business when this model was made.

 

Regards Ray

Edited by Silver Sidelines
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51 minutes ago, Leander said:

What you describe a 'part riveted tender' is a work of fiction on Hornby's part. It has welded tank sides and ariveted rear.

 

This is what I believe it should look like:

 

 

Thank you Leander for taking the time to add some pictures.  As I have just said above I know very little about Black Fives.  However I am not sure what your picture is showing as the sides of your tender are showing plenty of rivets.

 

Cheers Ray

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Another variation included by Hornby is in the front buffer beams, some are flush, some have (protruding) rivets depicted.

 

Interested in the tender variations, particularly to learn (or re-learn if I ever did know) more about the part-welded version.  I must have a look at your alterations to the tender chassis Ray - mine certainly 'drag' a lot more than I would like.

 

For all Hornby's Black Five is starting to show its age against more modern models, I can forgive my fleet many sins given how easily I've converted them to EM, and how smooth the running qualities are.  In addition to weight, I believe one thing which can affect traction is the sprung rear driving axle, which can lift the centre axle slightly.  Not that it was ever much of a problem with the lightweight loads my locos hauled when the layout was up and running.

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12 minutes ago, Jamie said:

Another variation included by Hornby is in the front buffer beams, some are flush, some have (protruding) rivets depicted.

 

 

 

Hello Jamie, you get the prize - I hadn't spotted the different detail on the front buffer beam.  I did check some of the cab sides to see if any of those were without rivets (welded) to match the tender.

 

Thanks  Ray

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4 hours ago, Silver Sidelines said:

 

Thank you Leander for taking the time to add some pictures.  As I have just said above I know very little about Black Fives.  However I am not sure what your picture is showing as the sides of your tender are showing plenty of rivets.

 

Cheers Ray

I'm happy to help and assist you in learning more about Black 5s. If you look at your photo of your 44908, you'll notice a horizontal line of rivets roughly level with the top of the handrail at the front of the tender side. This is a fully rivetted tender. On my model of 44765 with the Comet part-welded tender that row is missing but, you're correct in saying that there are plenty of rivets. The LMS found that the fully welded version was prone to leaks so went to the part-welded type instead for the last built series of locos. You don't necessarily need to kit build to do a part-welded tender, it can be achieved by removing the rivets from a fully riveted tender, with the use of a very sharp blade e.g. a scalpel, and a very steady hand!

 

On the subject of front bufferbeams, the earlier members of the class received flush riveted buffer beams with the switch to the visibly riveted type coming later. These were exchanged at various times as replacements were necessary. Here are two further examples, 45021 is Vulcan built early loo with a riveted buffer beam and riveted tender, while 45253 has the riveted version of buffer beam and a welded tender.

 

As always, a good clear photo of the loco you're intending to model is essential. Several books giving much information about the class and its multitude of variations are available. I can recomment the two volumes pblished by the RCTS and the five 'Book of the Black 5s' published by Irwell.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Left side front.jpg

Left side front.jpg

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30 minutes ago, Leander said:

As always, a good clear photo of the loco you're intending to model is essential

 

 

Thank you Pete, what excellent clear pictures (and super models!!)  I particularly like the lifting eyes to the front frames, not forgetting the frame extensions underneath.

 

 

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Pete,

 

I'm sure you know this but don't forget that 45020-70 didn't have a steam heating pipe on the front buffer beam.

 

Pete

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3 hours ago, Silver Sidelines said:

 

Hello Jamie, you get the prize - I hadn't spotted the different detail on the front buffer beam.  I did check some of the cab sides to see if any of those were without rivets (welded) to match the tender.

 

Thanks  Ray

Have to admit, I only noticed after one of mine started to part company from the main body shell!

 

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Ray,

Also 44908 shouldn't have the remains of the vacuum pump on the L/H crosshead.  It's the short length of metal pointing down to the ballast.

 

Pete

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27 minutes ago, cb900f said:

Pete,

 

I'm sure you know this but don't forget that 45020-70 didn't have a steam heating pipe on the front buffer beam.

 

Pete

That had passed me by completely. From looking at my collection of digital photographs it appears that few of the Vulcan, Crewe and the first Armstrong Whitworth built locos had them. However there's always one that proves the exception, here's 45070 in store inside Warrington (Dallam) shed in March 1967 to do just that. A photo on Rail Online shows that one was present in 1965 as well

45070 in store at Warringtion Dallam mpd 19-3-67.jpg

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Pete,

 

I shall have to check now . You have got me thinking that if it is the 1st 50 then it would be 5020-69 not 70, which would explain your photo. Just checked and it is 5020-69, however 5075-5224 apparently did not have steam heating at the front also.

 

Pete

Edited by cb900f
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Your table is extremely handy for me trying to track down Port Road Black 5s (for renumbering) secondhand, thank you. I'm up to 8 so far I think, 7 Hornby and 1 DJH on a Hornby chassis. 

 

Just to chuck my two penn'orth in to the knowledge pool, the longer wheelbase was because the Skefco roller-bearings used on the first lsuch batch were bigger than traditional bearings so they had to be further apart to clear the firebox. Once the length was changed I believe the longer wheelbase frames were used regardless of which bearings were fitted (but I can't remember where I read that last bit so don't quote me !).    

 

The 'as built' variations are a nightmare before you start on boiler and tender swaps. I have a couple of examples where photos of the same loco over a twenty year period show it changing from front to rear topfeed and back again, on at least one occasion with a different tender thrown in along the way. 

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4 hours ago, cb900f said:

Ray,

Also 44908 shouldn't have the remains of the vacuum pump on the L/H crosshead.  It's the short length of metal pointing down to the ballast.

 

Pete

 

Thank you again Pete.  I had noticed the spare bit of metal and had given up wondering what on earth it might be!

 

Cheers Ray

 

50724397887_9925980a9c_5k.jpg

 

Close up of 44908 aka Hornby R2359

Edited by Silver Sidelines
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2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

 

Just to chuck my two penn'orth in to the knowledge pool, the longer wheelbase was because the Skefco roller-bearings used on the first lsuch batch were bigger than traditional bearings so they had to be further apart to clear the firebox. Once the length was changed I believe the longer wheelbase frames were used regardless of which bearings were fitted (but I can't remember where I read that last bit so don't quote me !).    

 

The 'as built' variations are a nightmare before you start on boiler and tender swaps. I have a couple of examples where photos of the same loco over a twenty year period show it changing from front to rear topfeed and back again, on at least one occasion with a different tender thrown in along the way. 

 

Thank you Wheatley for explaining the difference in wheel base - I had it down to the firebox.

 

You are correct to remind us that what was said to have happened and what actually happened may not be the same thing.  In my branch of engineering there were the design drawings and then there were supposed to be the 'as constructed' drawings.  The latter were rarely completed beause the designers and the contractors would have quickly moved on to the next job.  This is supposed to have now been fixed with the requirements for a Health and Safety file!

 

Cheers Ray

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6 minutes ago, Silver Sidelines said:

 This is supposed to have now been fixed with the requirements for a Health and Safety file!

Don't believe it ! Northern's fleet engineer was convinced that they never had two Class 142s in exactly the same mod state at the same time. 

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Since publishing this Post I have gleaned more details of the difference between the various Hornby models.  I have added information to 'The Table' in the original Post and also an Addendum with a few more pictures.

 

Best Wishes all for 2021.

 

Ray

Edited by Silver Sidelines
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