Midland Railway during the early 1900s in 2FS

This sounds very interesting. 

 

I imagine you have gone through the pages on both Lawley Street and Central Goods on Warwickshire Railways?

 

I hope you have also had a trawl through the Derby Registers and the Midland Railway Study Centre catalogue. 

 

I'm afraid I have to point out that although the first two Class 4 goods engines were built in 1911, it wasn't until 1917 that any more were built. But if you were to choose a post-Great War setting, you could have a much greater variety of wagons, thanks to the introduction of pooling during the war. This becomes evident when you start checking the dates of some of the photos.

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

This sounds very interesting. 

 

I imagine you have gone through the pages on both Lawley Street and Central Goods on Warwickshire Railways?

 

I hope you have also had a trawl through the Derby Registers and the Midland Railway Study Centre catalogue. 

 

I'm afraid I have to point out that although the first two Class 4 goods engines were built in 1911, it wasn't until 1917 that any more were built. But if you were to choose a post-Great War setting, you could have a much greater variety of wagons, thanks to the introduction of pooling during the war. This becomes evident when you start checking the dates of some of the photos.

 

Thanks. Yes I have spent a number of hours on the Warwickshire Railways website, but I must admit I didn't know about the Derby Registers - I am a member of the Midland Railway Society however, just didn't know it was there!  I have spent quite a few hours on the MR Study Centre catalogue looking at different aspects, and have downloaded copies of the plans/drawings for a couple of stations with the aim that they will provide some background info and a basis of approach for the terminal station board.

 

I still have quite a bit of research to do on things, but thanks for flagging up the dates. I knew about wagon pooling, but had not thought about why it was introduced, so did not realise that it came about as a result of WW1.  Moving to a date that is post-WW1 and pre-grouping definitely makes sense in terms of both the wagon variety that would have been around, as you have kindly suggested the locomotive dates.

 

A bit of time to be spent this Easter looking through those Derby Registers I think!

 

Rich

Hi Rich, very flattered that my Bath project has provided some inspiration. I too am a big fan of Mikkle and the Farthing layouts. Your project sounds excellent, particularly as you are plumping for pre-group Midland.

 

I selected my modelling period precisely for the reasons Stephen mentions above. I wanted pre-group and always loved the post war pictures of goods yards with wagons from all over the country so initially settled on 1922. Since then I have become a bit more flexible as favourites such as large boilered 7Fs, 2Ps and Jinties (Bagnalls) fall outside that date so have now gone with a rather fluid decade or so after WW1 - essentially till the end of the S&D blue period in 1930 although the vast majority of my Midland stuff remains pre 1923 with just a couple of 4Fs in the first LMS livery with the small panel on the cab side.

 

Regarding your comments about locos, the Farish 4F is a very straightforward conversion to 2FS. Association bearings and wheels can be dropped in with replacement rods - I think Izzy has done a detailed series of posts on his thread in the 2mm area. The Farish model is a beautiful runner if a little light in terms of haulage though this can be significantly improved with a weighted tender.

The beautiful 800 2-4-0 above was built for me by John Greenwood in exchange for doing a number of the buildings on Wadebridge, I really must get round to painting it this spring along with a few other locos that have spent far too long in bare metal!

 

Below is a crop from an Airofims picture of Bath showing the shed. The date is bang in my period at 1920 although I will again be using a bit of modellers license to expand the Stothert works across the road and onto the sports field behind the sidings full of wagons on the north side of the line as the real thing did in the early thirties - it makes a much better backdrop to the layout as I only have about three inches to play with here!

 

I shall follow your project with interest.

 

Jerry  

 

Rich,

As an EM modeller, mixed gauge GWR to boot, I think your plan and reasoning is excellent.  I have thought many times that if the n gauge offering 30 years ago was as good as it is now I’d have gone to 2mm rather than EM (although that would make scratching my broad gauge/mixed gauge itch a really difficult task pre 3D printing...)

 

I look forward to reading lots more....

 

Duncan

Hi Rich, this sounds very exciting!

 

2FS Midland is clearly a winner for this approach, I can already picture it. You'll have a bit more room to play with than in 4mm, and fairly short stock too as you say. 

 

The main challenge I experience in design is having to balance everything - i.e. the individual layout/module has to be a consistent whole in it itself, but it also has to somehow fit within the greater scheme of things, conceptually, operationally and track-wise.  As I've started thinking more in modular terms myself, I'm finding that challenge increases, but I suppose it's part of the fun.

 

I like the sound of post WW1, not so often modelled. If you want to move back in time later, you could have a different period emphasis for the different modules as you move along, but that again depends on how integrated you want it all to be.

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

I selected my modelling period precisely for the reasons Stephen mentions above. I wanted pre-group and always loved the post war pictures of goods yards with wagons from all over the country so initially settled on 1922.

 

Regarding your comments about locos, the Farish 4F is a very straightforward conversion to 2FS. Association bearings and wheels can be dropped in with replacement rods - I think Izzy has done a detailed series of posts on his thread in the 2mm area. The Farish model is a beautiful runner if a little light in terms of haulage though this can be significantly improved with a weighted tender.

 

The beautiful 800 2-4-0 above was built for me by John Greenwood in exchange for doing a number of the buildings on Wadebridge, I really must get round to painting it this spring along with a few other locos that have spent far too long in bare metal!

 

I shall follow your project with interest.

 

Jerry  

 

Jerry,

Equally flattered that you have taken the time and trouble to comment, many thanks. Yes I think pushing the time period to the 1918-1922 time period will provide a better variety, while still keeping with the late 19th/early 20th century architecture. The info on the 4F conversion is interesting, I thought I’d read somewhere about a conversion, thanks to your comment ive found the second thread that @Izzy did, but still trying to discover the first one again!

 

I now recall you saying about the ‘800’ being built by John Greenwood. While I agree it needs painting, the stunning construction seems too good to hide!
 

I am expecting to be at the Association’s Derby event next year with Laurie, so look forward to seeing you again.

 

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

As an EM modeller, mixed gauge GWR to boot, I think your plan and reasoning is excellent.  I have thought many times that if the n gauge offering 30 years ago was as good as it is now I’d have gone to 2mm rather than EM (although that would make scratching my broad gauge/mixed gauge itch a really difficult task pre 3D printing...)

Hi Duncan, many thanks. Please don’t go putting ideas in my head, it’s dangerous!! Thanks for the comment however. I dabbled in modern image N gauge in my early teens and really couldn’t believe how much it had changed, detailing wise, when I returned back 30 years later ... not to mention the prices!!

 

Good to have you along.

 

Rich
 

My son has an n gauge layout in order to keep clear water between daddy’s trains and teddy’s trains.... it hasn’t worked....

 

He was entranced by John Greenwood’s north Cornwall layout at Jerry’s show and complains constantly that his model railway isn’t a proper one (ie not up to exhibition standard). He was 7 last week.  
 

Still it might give me an excuse to do Keyham in 2mm - it will never fit in the space available in 4mm (I was thinking Ivybridge and then Saltash in 2mm but others have got there first ....).

D

35 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Hi Rich, this sounds very exciting!

 

2FS Midland is clearly a winner for this approach, I can already picture it. You'll have a bit more room to play with than in 4mm, and fairly short stock too as you say. 

 

The main challenge I experience in design is having to balance everything - i.e. the individual layout/module has to be a consistent whole in it itself, but it also has to somehow fit within the greater scheme of things, conceptually, operationally and track-wise.  As I've started thinking more in modular terms myself, I'm finding that challenge increases, but I suppose it's part of the fun.

 

I like the sound of post WW1, not so often modelled. If you want to move back in time later, you could have a different period emphasis for the different modules as you move along, but that again depends on how integrated you want it all to be.

Thanks Mikkel, 

I think 2FS (and 2mm in general) has a quandary for some modellers, including me. It’s small enough to be able to do justice to an area in a reasonable space, but is it too small for detailing and achieving a good end result on a larger project. Your modular concept gets round this wonderfully, as it starts small completing each section before moving forwards.

 

I agree that finding a balance across the modules will be a big consideration. I have a ‘grand plan’ in my mind as to how I’d like it to come together ... if I only I could print out the picture in my mind... just don’t ask where the printers USB plug goes!!

 

The idea of potentially different time periods is an interesting one. Although from a loco point of view, I think I am going to *try* and be good and stick to one period in order to at least give me enough locos for the motive power depot, when I get to that one!

 

Rich

As you've mentioned Mid Rly Engine Sheds.....
I presume there's a copy of the track plan for Worcester Mid Rly Engine Shed at Worcester,

This is what I copied off a 1:500 O.S. plan some 50+ years ago.
Just adding an idea to the mix.
 

18 minutes ago, drduncan said:

My son has an n gauge layout in order to keep clear water between daddy’s trains and teddy’s trains.... it hasn’t worked....

 

He was entranced by John Greenwood’s north Cornwall layout at Jerry’s show and complains constantly that his model railway isn’t a proper one (ie not up to exhibition standard). He was 7 last week.  
 

Still it might give me an excuse to do Keyham in 2mm - it will never fit in the space available in 4mm (I was thinking Ivybridge and then Saltash in 2mm but others have got there first ....).

D

Sound like an exhibition layout creator in the making ... you’ve done well!
 

Keyham would be interesting. I always thought that Devonport in Plymouth would make an interest GWR layout, especially with the small goods yard at the eastern end. 

6 minutes ago, Penlan said:

As you've mentioned Mid Rly Engine Sheds.....
I presume there's a copy of the track plan for Worcester Mid Rly Engine Shed at Worcester,

This is what I copied off a 1:500 O.S. plan some 50+ years ago.
Just adding an idea to the mix.

 

Hi @Penlan,

Cheers. That’s an interesting thought. Not too big, but not exactly compact either. Ive added it to my list of potential thoughts for that module! Took me a little bit of time to find it below Shrub Hill station on the NLS historical maps. Thanks for posting it.

 

Rich

Oooh, Devonport.  Yes an excellent minimum space mainline station!

 

I’ll do Devonport you do Keyham and Camels head viaduct and we’ll join them together... EM wasn’t it?

 

D

Worcester Shrub Hill was a Joint Mid. GWR station, as staff vacancies became available they appointed them alternatively to each Company. I don't seem to have saved the date of the 1:500 series map, but I would have thought pre 1920.  It was tucked away in some old cabinets in the City Engineers Office when I started there in 1972.

10 hours ago, Penlan said:

As you've mentioned Mid Rly Engine Sheds.....
I presume there's a copy of the track plan for Worcester Mid Rly Engine Shed at Worcester,

This is what I copied off a 1:500 O.S. plan some 50+ years ago.
Just adding an idea to the mix.

 

I appreciate this is deviating from the Goods Warehouse that will be the first module, but one of the other Midland Shed's that I had on the radar as a possible basis for this fictional location, is Rowsley.  Nice feature on it in one of the Midland Record editions I have and the buildings look nice from a modelling point of view.  The track layout is also interesting, and not too spread out.

1 minute ago, MarshLane said:

one of the other Midland Shed's that I had on the radar as a possible basis for this fictional location, is Rowsley. 

 

Old or new shed? Do you have G. Waite and L. Knighton, Rowsley: a rural railway centre (Midland Railway Society, 2003)?

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Old or new shed? Do you have G. Waite and L. Knighton, Rowsley: a rural railway centre (Midland Railway Society, 2003)?

 

Ah! Do you know I was just sat downstairs with a cup of tea pondering things and it occurred to me that the shed at the London end of the yard wasn't built until the mid-late 1920s, so the buildings could be a different style entirely.  Having just popped on to edit the post, as ever Stephen, you've beaten me to it!  No I haven't got that book, I have Through Limestone Hills by Bill Hudson and A N Other about the Midland in that area, but not the MRS book on Rowsley.  However, it was the new shed that I was thinking of.  Would the building style / operational detail have changed much from 5-10 years previously?

 

Rich

23 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

However, it was the new shed that I was thinking of.  Would the building style / operational detail have changed much from 5-10 years previously?

 

The new shed was very much in the style of Midland straight sheds built in the 1880s/90s - Hellifield, Ilkley, Keighley, Mansfield, and on the grand scale, Westhouses (1890) and Sheffield Millhouses (1901) - but with rather plainer brickwork and some false economies such as the use of old rails for the rafters. The Metcalfe two-road engine shed is (or was*) a pretty good representation of this style, certainly in 00. Another useful book to get hold of second hand: C. Hawkins and G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 - The Midland Railway (Wild Swan, 1981).

 

*It's had a make-over in the last couple of years - it's become ever so slightly twee to appeal to GWR types.

 

Midland Railway Study Centre Item 23473. (And others.)

Edited April 3, 2021 by Compound2632

Thanks Steven,

I have filed the plan of Ilkley away for future reference. I do like the standardisation that the MR brought to the network. I did think about looking at a roundhouse style, but concluded that it would take up too much space, and to be really useful, in the grand scheme it needs to be open on one side to allow the viewer to see the activity inside, and that starts to take the practicality of a round building away. I’ll certainly look for that book thanks.

 

I’ve spent an enjoyable hour pouring over the Midland Record edition of Nottingham Goods and Sheffield Wicker this evening, so have a bit more idea of what the goods warehouse will be modelled like. I’ll try and get a blog post up with some scale drawings/plans on later this week.

 

Rich

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

it's become ever so slightly twee to appeal to GWR types

 

You thought you could slip that in unnoticed, didn't you? Filed and remembered! 

 

 

Quote

The first of the modules to be created will be Forge Gate Goods Warehouse, modelled on a Midland-style building, that will take a lot of incentive from Birmingham Lawley Street, Nottingham Goods and Sheffield Wicker freight depots

 

Just had a look at photos of some of these online. You'll be needing one or two horse drawn vehicles. Should make for an interesting distraction when you tire of the big projects.

 

I like the look of Nottingham Goods, there's a nice 4mm model by Dave Barrett  here: https://www.scalefour.org/layouts/exhibnottingham.html

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

 

Just had a look at photos of some of these online. You'll be needing one or two horse drawn vehicles. Should make for an interesting distraction when you tire of the big projects.

 

I like the look of Nottingham Goods, there's a nice 4mm model by Dave Barrett  here: https://www.scalefour.org/layouts/exhibnottingham.html

Thanks Mikkel,

I hadn’t seen or heard of that layout before. Superbly done. 
 

Yes several horse drawn vehicles will be on the hit list, so I’ll have a search around the usual subjects, but some may need scratchbuilding I suspect. Now about a working horse that Dave Barrett suggested ...... 

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I like the look of Nottingham Goods, there's a nice 4mm model by Dave Barrett  here: https://www.scalefour.org/layouts/exhibnottingham.html

 

Yes, I've seen that in the flesh some years ago - very well done.

Rich,

Another 2FS project that I will follow with great interest. I must admit that Mikkel’s approach to “eating an elephant” has much to commend it, indeed I thought long and hard about a DJLC entry along those lines but decided that the size allowed was just to restrictive for me. Good luck though!

Ian

16 minutes ago, Ian Smith said:

Rich,

Another 2FS project that I will follow with great interest. I must admit that Mikkel’s approach to “eating an elephant” has much to commend it, indeed I thought long and hard about a DJLC entry along those lines but decided that the size allowed was just to restrictive for me. Good luck though!

Ian

 

Hi Ian,

Thanks, nice to have you along.  Yes, I have kept revisiting the DJLC idea with a view to creating something, but end up rejecting it each time for the same reason as you!  If I can get 25% of the quality you have achieved with Modbury - which is wonderful by the way - I shall be very happy!

 

Rich

I agree that @Mikkel's methods make an excellent starting point - his small layouts have provided me with much inspiration.  I feel that my eyesight and general clumsiness are not up to 2 mm modelling but I'm amazed to see what is now being produced in this scale.  I met Julia Adams at some exhibitions and was most impressed by her modelling technique.  I shall follow your developments with interest

 

Mike