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Powsides/Slaters Private Owner wagons


Mikkel

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I wanted some Private Owners for Farthing, so have built a couple of Powsides kits, i.e. painted and pre-lettered Slaters kits. I opted for two Gloucester designs to RCH 1887 specifications, one a 5-plank side-door wagon, the other a 7-plank side- and end-door job. 

 

 

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I like the overall appearance, although TBH the small lettering isn’t quite up to current standards. Perhaps I was unlucky, they look fine on the website.

 

 

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The kits have blank interior sides, so the moulding pips were filed away and planking was indicated with a scriber.

 

 

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The instructions recommend joining all sides first, then mounting the floor inside. I struggled a bit with this, the floor wasn’t a perfect fit and the sides were lightly curved. Some dismantling and remedial work ensued, but I got there in the end.

 

 

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I used waisted pin-point bearings from MJT. Split spoke wheels on one wagon, and plain spokes for the other one because I ran out. Did some of these wagons eventually receive plain spoke wheels? Otherwise I’ll swop the erroneous set later.

 

 

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Some of the small lettering was a bit damaged or missing as the kits came. I touched it up as best I could. Some bits I simply painted over. I’d rather have absent lettering than odd lettering.

 

 

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The built-up wagons. 

 

 

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Having admired Dave’s lovely builds of the 7mm versions of these kits, I decided to indicate the interior ironwork as he has done. For this I simply used strips of Evergreen (painted darker after this shot).

 

 

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Good interior photos of these wagons are rare, so drawing on discussion by Stephen and other helpful RMwebbers I drew up the above sketch to guide my detailing of the interior. Please note that this is my own rough and ready rendering. There are various unknowns and no one has “signed off” on this sketch. Anyone interested should consult Stephen’s drawing and info here.

 

 

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Interior ironwork in place. The kit does include a hinge for the end door. On some wagon types this was positioned above the top plank, but in this case I fitted it just behind the top plank, based on this discussion.

 

 


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Archer’s rivet transfers at the fixed ends.

 

 

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Stephen pointed out the “big nuts” that appear on the ends of many Gloucester wagons, extending from the diagonal irons inside. Looking at photos they seem to have been present on both 5-, 6- and 7-planks as seen here left to right (obviously only at fixed ends). 

 

 

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The nuts don’t feature in the kit, so I added them. On the 7-planker I drilled holes and stuck in bits of brass. This proved tricky as it’s just by the corner joins, so on the 5-planker I Mek-Pak’ed on bits of plastic rod instead, as seen above.

 

 

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As usual: Liquid Gravity and 3mm Sprat & Winkles. I'm always amazed how much difference weight makes to the "feel" of a wagon. The couplings too: Ugly they may be, but they turn it into a working vehicle.

 

 

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Weathering the interior with pigments. The “Sinai Dust” seen here is courtesy of the late Mick Bonwick. Thank you, Mick.

 

 

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The Ayres wagon. Phil Parker uses a fibre glass brush to fade the lettering on printed RTR wagons. But these are transfers, so would tear (I did try).  Instead I lightly dry-brushed base colour over the lettering. Helps a bit, but not quite as effective. 

 

 

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C&G Ayres still exist as a well-known Reading removal company and former GWR cartage agent. This (very) close crop shows one of their removal containers at Reading ca. 1905. 

 

 

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But a search of the British Newspaper Archive showed that C&G Ayres were also at one time coal traders [Source: Reading Mercury Oxford Gazette March 9, 1918]. So I need to decide whether to designate the Ayres wagon for coal or furniture. I wonder if this explains the difference between the red Powsides livery and the green wagon livery that I normally associate the company with.

 

 

 

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The Weedon wagon. You can just make out the nuts on the ends, but they aren't really noticeable. The effort would arguably have been better spent detailing the brake gear!

 

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I had assumed the Weedon Brothers were mainly coal and coke merchants, but again newspapers and directories of the time offered further info. [Source: Kelly's Directory of Berks, Bucks & Oxon, 1911]. It seems that manure was also a key aspect of their business. The company features on the right in this directory clipping - amongst lime burners, loan offices, lunatic asylums and other essentials of progress!

 

 

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Though based at Goring, the Weedon Brothers had stores in a number of places, as illustrated in the above 1889 advert. I’m inclined to designate the wagon for manure rather than coal. I wonder what that would mean for the weathering? Richard's latest book on Wiltshire Private Owners is firmly on my wishlist.

 

 

 

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Anyway, the wagons are now running at Farthing. Here's No. 1897 knocking them about in the sidings behind the stables.

 

 

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Overall I've enjoyed the build. May have a go at applying my own transfers next time. 

 

 

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It's just a couple of plastic wagons of course, but I learnt a lot along the way. That's one of the great things about modelling, every build is an entry point to railway history.  Thanks to everyone for the help.

 

Edited by Mikkel

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4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

tourists in Venice was comparatively limited during the winter

My wife has a winter birthday and my first visit to Venice, a good many years ago now, was in early January to celebrate.  The lagoon was still that particular entrancing turquoise but there was snow on the roofs of Santa Maria Salute and the Redentore.  I did not expect to visit Venice again, at least not in the forseeable future but in fact, a few months later, I found myself using Venice as a point of entry en route to a steelworks a 100 or so kilometers north of the city - thus the need for a fully metric tape measure.  It became something of a round trip, taking the midnight train from Santa Lucia down to Rome, again for work reasons, and back to UK from there.  Italian railways have provided some interest over the years: I think I've covered the whole distance from Como in the north to Syracuse in southern Sicily - not all at once - including the 'Rapido', a two car express service which is shunted onto the ferry at the straights of Messina.  There are some excellent railway modellers too and if I were to search here at home I could turn up a 00 gauge GWR Pannier dating to the 1950s, made by Rivarossi - not bad for its age, it was still in service on my Father's 00 layout into the 2000s.

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On 27/09/2021 at 09:08, Mikkel said:

 

Thanks again Neal. Out if interest, what went wrong with the varnish on the Red Oxide wagon? I had been thinking of trying something similar.

 

 

As promised here is the photo. The black wagon on the right is the POW sides kit, the wagon on the left is the transfer only.

 

Although I can tell the transfer has given way, I doubt any casual observer would know. It just looks distressed / tatty / woe begone!

 

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I have added a general layer of dirt to “enhance “ the used look!

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Many thanks Neal, that's good to know. You're right, if I didn't know I'd just think it was distressed. The "Henley" letters are the only revealing bit really.

 

I assume the loads are real coal, looks good. Nice chunky pieces.

 

Edited by Mikkel
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I have never had to use subtefuge to get my wife to agree to visiting Venice or Padua! Train journey between by Red Arrow is so easy too! Sadly, the virus and old age makes another trip unlikely!

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12 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

With just a tiny tweak to those wagons they'd be perfect...

 

What would you tweak? (Other than, say, the wheel profile and back-to-back...)

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On 26/09/2021 at 23:16, Mikkel said:

Thanks Dave. Dry-brushed Vallejo "Pale sand" works well for light weathering, I think. That and MIG "Light European Earth" pigment are used for weathering  across buildings, ground and stock, in an attempt to bring things together visually.

 

 

Is that the drybrushed colour on the rail sides and buffer stops in these photographs? I think drybrushing and colour-scaling is one of the few areas that we all get wrong, but yours looks just right.

 

I also wanted to ask and I'm sure you've already written up somewhere - what you use for ballast/ground cover and if you're ever modelled it over the track timbers?

 

Many thanks,

William

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9 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Is that the drybrushed colour on the rail sides and buffer stops in these photographs? I think drybrushing and colour-scaling is one of the few areas that we all get wrong, but yours looks just right.

 

Hi William. After priming, the rails and buffer stops are given two coats of Vallejo 70.822 German Camouflage Black Brown. In itself this just looks like dark chocolate, but when dry-brushed with the Vallejo 70.837 Pale Sand the appearance changes to what can be seen in the photos above. I sometimes make the mistake of drybrushing on too much of the pale sand, but this can usually be saved by going over it again with a light drybrushing of the German CC Brown.

 

 

9 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

I also wanted to ask and I'm sure you've already written up somewhere - what you use for ballast/ground cover and if you're ever modelled it over the track timbers?

 

I haven't tried modelling it over the sleepers, only right up to the tops. For The Stables layout I used Chinchilla sand for ballast and terrain pastes for the ground cover. There's a write-up here: 

 

 

On past layouts I've used various grades of Polyfilla, including between sleepers. That only really works for handbuilt track as it can be applied before the rails and chairs go on:

 

 

The Polyfilla method can give you a really smooth look and you can adjust the coarseness yourself if you buy it as powder. But it is rather messy, and doesn't work for points !

 

So for points I have used Chris Nevard's DAS approach in the past. The DAS looks great on Chris' layouts and is easy for general groundwork. But I do find it very time consuming when adding it between the sleepers - at least if you want a really smooth look - and especially around pointwork. Making some track tamping tools helps, I find:

 

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Overall I'm not sure I will go back to those latter methods though. I'd rather try to improve on my experiments with chinchilla sand (e.g. sieving it) or similar materials for the track, and then either terrain paste or DAS for the general groundwork. The big advantage - as I see it - is that you can pour it on and spread it even (also on pointwork), before carefully sticking it down with PVA solutions.

 

Bear in mind that all this is based on messing about with very small layouts. Different costs and benefits may apply to large layouts.

 

Edited by Mikkel
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During the outage, I spent some time contemplating my unfinished Slaters/POWSides South Walian Gloucester 7-plankers. I looked through all my books for photos of Gloucester wagon interiors and turned up next to nothing. I was in a state of quasi-spirtual despair - the Dark Night of the Solebar - from which I have emerged* via the way of negation. I now doubt the existence of any interior ironwork at the fixed end beyond the diagonal straps and the L-shaped washer plate at the top of the corner. All the rest, I now believe, is carriage bolts, possibly countersunk. I will post a full account of my reasoning on my D299 thread soon.

 

I have to apologise for leading you up the garden path. I can only atone for my sin by suggesting you give your wagons a full load of coal. 

 

*Thanks to the consolation of correspondence with @Andy Vincent who is in consultation with the Pope of Wagons, whose eventual pronouncement, the faithful believe, will be infallible truth.

Edited by Compound2632
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Not to worry Stephen, it's a voyage of discovery. So are you saying that the bits on the fixed end here should be removed?

 

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12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Thanks to the consolation of correspondence with @Andy Vincent who is in consultation with the Pope of Wagons, whose eventual pronouncement, the faithful believe, will be infallible truth.

Ian and I have discussed construction features for many years and there are still some aspects of some Gloster wagons that leave us in a puzzlement.  An example is that there are some photos where the lowest bolt through the end face of a corner plate appears to be at the centre line of the floor plank... so is this bolt actually a coach screw?

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4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Not to worry Stephen, it's a voyage of discovery. So are you saying that the bits on the fixed end here should be removed?

 

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That, I have to grovel and say, is my current opinion. Probably they should be Archered up instead. But make no rash move!

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1 hour ago, Western Star said:

Ian and I have discussed construction features for many years and there are still some aspects of some Gloster wagons that leave us in a puzzlement.  An example is that there are some photos where the lowest bolt through the end face of a corner plate appears to be at the centre line of the floor plank... so is this bolt actually a coach screw?

 

Please can you point me in the direction of a photo showing this feature? Thanks.

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That, I have to grovel and say, is my current opinion.

 

At this moment I am firmly in the belief that there are washer plates on the inside of the sheeting where there are bolts to secure the corner plates.  As far as I know, the only place where there is no washer plate on the inide of a circa 1900 Gloster wagon is for those bolts which secure the sheeting to the stanchions.  Possibly the most profitable source of photos of the inside of wagons, particularly those of the Gloster kind, are the images recorded by L E Copeland at Lydney Docks circa 1946 - these photos can be found in many places in the series of books about the "Severn & Wye Railway", by Ian Pope and others, Wild Swan / Lightmoor Press, volumes 1 to 5.

 

So, Mikkel @Mikkel, keep on hanging on for the moment.

 

regards, Graham

Edited by Western Star
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8 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Postscript.  Stephen, I shall do as you suggest regarding bolts at the bottom of corner plates.  Humm, try Turton/Pope POW Collections!  No, that is not fair as I might well reference a copy that you do not possess. time to find a photo and then speak with Ian for a JPEG.

 

I have Pope on Gloucestershire and Bristol but not Forest of Dean, and Turton 3-8 and 13-15.

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Stephen, @Compound2632,

 

I have edited my previous post, please refer.  I shall have a look as requested sometime today / Monday.

 

Just to chuck the proverbial spanner...  my interest in the Edwardian era might produce information that is contrary to information that is contemporary with the grouping period...  after all, there are body design changes between 1887 and 1907 with further changes between 1907 and 1923 (these are the dates of significant revisions to the RCH specs for 8/10/12T mineral wagons).  Let us not forget also that the design features of a Gloster wagon might not be the same as comparable wagons from other builders in the wagon trade - which means, to take note of details in pre-group photos one does have to have some idea of the builder.

 

regards, Graham

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3 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Just to chuck the proverbial spanner...  my interest in the Edwardian era might produce information that is contrary to information that is contemporary with the grouping period...  after all, there are body design changes between 1887 and 1907 with further changes between 1907 and 1923 (these are the dates of significant revisions to the RCH specs for 8/10/12T mineral wagons).  Let us not forget also that the design features of a Gloster wagon might not be the same as comparable wagons from other builders in the wagon trade - which means, to take note of details in pre-group photos one does have to have some idea of the builder.

 

Indeed. The earlier RCH specifications were less prescriptive than the 1923 specification, which imposed monotonous uniformity. That's why the earlier period is so interesting! Plus of course one has to throw into the mix pre-1887 wagons, many dumb-buffered, that were still reasonably common up to the Gear War. After all, a dumb buffered wagon built in 1886 was less than 30 years old by the time such things were finally prohibited - though it might have been "reconstructed".

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On my new 'Printing' a Gloucester Wagon thread (which will get to washer plates for the corners in due course), I noted that there are differences between the 1887 drawings Archie Croome published in 1898 and those in the Ince Waggon book. One of these relates to these corner washer plates.

 

In his articles, Archie Croome comments that whether or not washer plates were fitted in the corner depended on the type of bolts used. He does not show any on the general arrangement of an 1887 wagon that he provides. Conversely, the GA drawing in the Ince book does show them. Looking at the GA for the 1904 spec, the corner washer plates are again shown.

 

I dont know the source for the drawings included in the Ince Waggons book but I have wondered whether they are of a later revision - the design of buffer guide shown is also different in both profile and length and seems to represent the 1903/4 spec version (10" compared to 9.5" in the 1887 spec and 11.5" in the 1911 revision to the 1907 RCH spec).

 

None of this really answers the question but might suggest that wagons built before the 1903 spec did not necessarily have them but they became more common in wagons built after 1903 

 

Edited by Andy Vincent
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23 hours ago, Western Star said:

Ian and I have discussed construction features for many years and there are still some aspects of some Gloster wagons that leave us in a puzzlement.  An example is that there are some photos where the lowest bolt through the end face of a corner plate appears to be at the centre line of the floor plank... so is this bolt actually a coach screw?

 

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Please can you point me in the direction of a photo showing this feature? Thanks.

 

OK I see it now. It seems to be a standard feature of wagons where the corner plate overlaps the curb rail and is reproduced on the Slaters mouldings. On the side, it's a bolt coming through the curb rail; on the end, there must be a 2½" square timber - or 3" x 2½", depending on how thick the end sheeting is - through which the bolt comes. It's unclear how else this end timber is secured - there's no bolts through the end pillars at that position and if there's no washer plate on the inside for the end pillar bolts, it's not even clamped in place. Anyway, I suppose the bolts through this timber and the curb rail must be countersunk, in order for the floor planks to slot into place without obstruction. Whereas on our models the floor is a key component around which the rest of the wagon is built, on the real thing, I think the floor planks just sat in place? 

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On 27/09/2021 at 03:44, Compound2632 said:

Looking good. Now I have no choice but to retrofit the big nuts on all my Gloucester wagons...

 

I very much doubt any C&G Ayres mineral wagon was used for furniture - they were coal merchants on a large scale, as the size of their fleet indicates. There's a little essay about them by Keith Turton on Warwickshire Railways from which I learned that the green and yellow livery dates from 1910 - which skewered my Hornby upgrades, at least for my c. 1902 purposes - while the red goes back to broad gauge days.

 

I find myself twitching about that Weedon wagon. I wonder if this is one where POWSides have used a Gloucester wagon to stand in for a wagon of some other builder. The layout of the lettering doesn't look quite right - I would expect Wallingford Watlington and Wheatley each to be written on a plank, not over the join of two planks. Unfortunately I don't have Bill Hudson's Vol. 2, which is where the Lightmoor Index tells me a photo is to be found but there is a photo of a coke wagon built by the Birmingham RC&W Co. in the HMRS collection.

 

Anyway, as I know you know, there were plenty of dumb-buffered PO wagons still doing sterling service - there's a rather nice one from Wyken Colliery, on the LNWR Coventry-Nuneaton line, in that famous Vastern Road Yard photo! (Just to the left and down from the C&G Ayers furniture container.)

 

Re. that container - it does look very like the ones that became widespread in the 1930s but c. 1905 there were no conflats - so presumably an ordinary low-sided open would be used.

 

Excuse my insomniacal ramblings.

I do have the said book, purchased from the man himself (and signed as was his wont). Wallingford was on the left side, above Wheatley Etc which was on the bottom plank, Watlington was on the righthand side above the number 131 which was on the bottom one. One point to note is that it was fitted with extended sides as it was a coke wagon and livery was red oxide with white lettering shaded black. Iron work was also black. On the centre door was GORING. For anybody who has the book it's on page 104. So not really the same at all.

Edited by Stephen Freeman
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Many thanks Stephen. That sounds like it is this photo of No. 131 on the HMRS pages: 

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/aaa516-weedon-bros-goring-8t-5-plank-6-coke-rail-open-131-op-lettered-wallingford-wattington-whe.html

 

I suppose the question then is whether No. 121 looked the same , or like the Powsides print, or something else. 

 

In any case the poor printing of the smaller lettering makes it an obvious candidate for a repaint, and changing the livery to a local Farthing trader. At some point. 

 

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Splendid photo. Apropos the discussion of signwriting on @kitpw's blog, my view is that the italic part at least of the inscription would have been painted on freehand without any marking out other than a sketch from the drawing office - a skilled man would need no further assistance.

 

Note the Birmingham pentangle on the end and the firm's large oval owner's plate on the RH end of the side - this was a wagon on hire. Their builder's plate is to the left of the brake V-hanger and the load plate to its right, with the registration plate towards the LH end of the solebar.

 

Going by the distance from the spring shoes to the headstock, this is a 16 ft-long wagon, unlike the Gloucester wagon represented by the Slater's kit, which was 15 ft. The other obvious difference from a Gloucester wagon is the external diagonals on the body.

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2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Many thanks Stephen. That sounds like it is this photo of No. 131 on the HMRS pages: 

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/aaa516-weedon-bros-goring-8t-5-plank-6-coke-rail-open-131-op-lettered-wallingford-wattington-whe.html

 

I suppose the question then is whether No. 121 looked the same , or like the Powsides print, or something else. 

 

In any case the poor printing of the smaller lettering makes it an obvious candidate for a repaint, and changing the livery to a local Farthing trader. At some point. 

 

Yes the same one, HMRS is quoted as the source of the photo in the book. Part of the problem is the method of production of the transfers, they are dry print. Times have moved on and DIY waterslide decals  have moved on and are much easier these days, especially if you have a colour laser printer. I haven't tried them myself but there is the promise of carrier free waterslide decals as long as it will withstand 110c for 10 mins.

Edited by Stephen Freeman
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