Igor

Thanks Phil H. Got all that, but Nathan and I were asking: Is it for loksound? and are there reblows available?

Was this answered? I too have some loksound fitted locos requiring re blows inc. 8F and some of the other types mentioned above. Where can more information be found? TIA

This limited edition run tag is totally pointless now. Falcon, D8000, 66522, 97201...

By that description then, we should already have had such as Hattons, Kernow, Harburn, Invicta, Osbournes, Rail Exclusives, N Gauge Society, etc etc for some time. Surely need to be fair all and equal.

Is this in the wrong sub forum? Surely Locomotion are a shop/commissioner not manufacturer? Maybe time to revamp and make new division for manufacturers and commissioners. It would be much fairer all round and more obvious where to look.

And somehow this wasn't known or factored in at the start/announcement? I like REM, but it here's one for you: I said slippage is understandable but not in years. I cannot dispute what you say about delays and the reasons BUT the current mess is wholly unnecessary and is a bad vibe. The vapourware and jam tomorrow phrases are a direct result of making announcements at the point of initial idea and no work has been done. Announcements have become a standing joke. I'd rather this was accepted and we discuss the resultant planning blight issue. I am critical, and I can see I am in the minority. However I genuinely think that statements glibly trotted out on here do need to be challenged to make sure they are honest, reasonable and robust. I note that some have wrongly interpreted what I am trying to say deliberately or otherwise. I'm sorry I could not make my point more clearly, must be my heritage. I don't need to have a high post count or show my work to have an opinion. I'd have to disagree with DJMs post as I explained above. Brinklays reply is the usual ridiculous retort about the real world. But we've been here before. Can we debate model railways?

That just the point JJB. There's 'slippage', and there's slippage! I don't see this being described as such. 6 months or so is slippage, missed slot or boat etc. Slippage can be excused. Up to 18 months is disastrous in my mind, and I would suggest anything longer is a complete runaway and verging on deliberate irresponsibility. This isn't rocket science and all the firms know exactly how long each stage takes to make a model. In this instance we are talking seven years without a single piece of metal cut. We all know the whole process takes 'give or take' two years from start to finish (plus 6 month slippage if you are being generous)! Are we suggesting these risky investments are being made without any project managing or timeline planning?

Bad choice of words by me at the end there. You summed it up well, but how can anyone 'forget' something they've already be told about? You can't get a brainwash. If something like the D600 was absolutely fundamental to a major new project, it would always be in the back of your mind and, in a world short of time, would sow at least a seed of doubt with priorities. Do I build? Do I wait? What's best use of my time? And the closer to 'perceived' release, the bigger the issue. See?

I'll entertain you in your self-appointed role as the 'patience police' but please remember every one has an opinion, and there all equally valid as yours and no less valid if they differ. Potential purchaser? Might have one, once I've have had a good look over the finished item. I don't buy blind - got caught once too often. Quite like all the ugly NBLs, but I'm in no hurry. Why would you assume otherwise? You're not intimating your opinion is worth more than mine again, just because you 'want this model' and you thought I didn't, are you? If you are going to quote me then be accurate. You have translated 'handsome' into rich. I didn't say rich. I believe there is handsome reward in model railways (if you get it right) otherwise you wouldn't see so much activity and companies would be shedding staff rather than taking them on. Reasonable timescale? I think, like a few others on here, that within the lifetime of an annual catalogue is reasonable. Perhaps 18 months at a real stretch. That's what used to happen. Reasonable assumption? That companies are in business to make a profit. (is that allowed these days?). Usually, as much as they can. Slapped down? Not at all. I'm of the opinion many might think what would be termed 'opposing' thoughts but don't comment these days, since the disagree button seems to have gone. Surely if you can agree, you must be able to disagree just as easily to give fair balance? (Looking like the EU referendum will go the same way). But you've 'slapped' Mr George down pretty quickly never the less . Froth storm? Nope, just don't understand the need for them so early in the process. Penalty of being 'found out'? I would suggest you are looking at it. The number of people that are starting to get tired of pre-announcements and announcements so advanced as to be counter productive. Look around. People are increasingly scratching around for news, anything, on a 7-year old project like this and much newer ones... DJ models, Oxford, even Bachmann. All after initial fanfares. Someone has said even said Rapido has gone quiet. That's hard to believe, but they've set themselves up now. Sooner or later, some of us will just look at an announcement and say "oh well, I'll forget about that and revisit in X years time to see if it has moved any closer from pipe dream to reality. The frothy coffee quickly goes cold (if not regularly topped up) and sooner or later the milky publicity turns in to sour frustration or cold disenchantment. I suspect some newer brands are close to being actually damaged by it. Negative? I don't think so. There's always two sides to everything and I don't think the downside is given a fair hearing. It like we're all on Prozac. I am just really concerned for the future as it leads to less actual practical modelling (I won't bother to build that kit/scratch/carve it, because I know xxxx is due in the future) and layout blight, whilst waiting for a particular favourite loco, essential to a new layout design, that never turns up. Result: Limboland. Frequent top-ups in the form of useful and informative communication (natural 'highs' if you like) are the solution. Just look at how the mood has changed with regard to Hornby (who are otherwise killing all the model shops)!

The reason for taking a financial risk is, I dare to suggest, the prospect of a handsome reward... How do you know it's a big risk? Doubt it's a philanthropic gesture. Big is relative. And, one would realistically assume to get... rather a lot more...back! Why do all the calls for more frequent communication get slapped down with the stock answer of 'you do better' or 'be patient'? If firms are going to whip up a froth storm, at least have the decency of providing honest and frequent updates. No point in being vague or going quiet, since you'll always get found out in the end. ie the thing won't arrive in a reasonable timescale.

Trying to give balace and a alternative view for those waiting - The problem is.. it still is vapourware because we can't buy it yet! For those that have waited, it must be noted that back in January it was officially announced that the loco was going to be out in 5/6 months. Here we are - 6 months later - and we are being told that it wont be out for another 6 months! I'm not knocking the product but why cant these companies be a bit more truthful with dates (or less optimistic). I know Bachmann and Hornby (less so lately) have had this problem but DJM is supposed be a 'new broom'. With the weather like it is today a phrase comes to mind: One swallow does not make a summer. It must be remembered that the delay to this model means that every other of the numerous DJM products that rely on the sales of this model to finance them have also now been pushed back by the same six months...

Our 'informed sources' agree to disagree, then? Not much help. One or the other will be closer to the truth!

I think this is a must for Rapido considering the interest in the APT-e. Just think, this one actually ran in passenger service and shouldn't have the clearance problems. With six half sets built I think there is plenty of milage for a short and a full set. If the one off experimental train can command 1600 sales then this has to be a magnitude above. More than triple that figure? And yes, I'd would have one or two of these to run alongside 85s etc.

Yeah, I saw this and thought the same. It's puff. Clearly not going to plan as we were promised to see samples in April. (See update four months earlier) It's either a holding pattern or... the plan has changed. If this loco is in the shops before the end of September (q3 release) I'll eat my kilt.

Gerald, I dont believe that for one moment, especially for such an important project. Are you sure? However, a simple solution, then, would have been to set the deadline at 12.00 mid-day during a M-F working week. Or is that no good because everyone would be off for lunch chomping their sandwiches or on fag break?

Hi Bill. I think you missed my point. You don't need to monitor all forums or employ any more staff at all... All you needed to do was ensure some info was given on the Locomotion/Rapido website (the obvious first, and central point of call) on expiry of that specific deadline. That info would have quickly spread. The deadline has been hyped up by Jason/Brian (rightly so) on social media and your blogs/newsletters and reminders on here, and on flyers and paper handouts (adverts as well?). If time could be found for doing all that, then surely time could be found to press an 'enter' stroke at midnight! I would always suggest picking up the blower for direct infor, but shouldn't have needed to. You can't have it both ways. At least that's my take on it.

As one of those wanting to know what was going on, and the one who had to phone up to find out (it wasn't simple, I had to take a work break, it was a quiet protracted call, but we got there in the end, after being passed around), can I just say this should have all been avoided by a simple one line explanatory update to the website at 00.01 on May 1st. (Yes I know it is a late time but it's also a known time and a very important project to the museum) Despite the clarification in the end it could have been handled better by all parties concerned. The clock was, in retrospect a mistake. And I'm not knocking the product at all!

Some facts: I have spoken to Sandra. They are working on a bank holiday as it is a busy day for the museum with visitors. The order deadline for the APT has expired and no more orders are being taken. The clock finishing and nothing happening was pressure of work catching up paperwork. The website is wrong and say this will be fixed tomorrow am. The limited edition quantity is 1600 units, it is not a secret, made up of both non and sound. Certificate numbers are likely to be printed on the booklets that come with the models. No news on delivery date yet. Hope this helps. People are not critical for critical sake but just have an information vacuum which is worrying if you have shelled out cash.

Hi Stephen. I'm try to be good with my manners and won't type what I really think because I am on a yellow card for being a bit negative but accept your points - and we all want a good model. However there are a few of us out here that don't understand this marketing method and want someone from Locomotion to make it clear. I'm a bit surprised this wasn't done straight away by Brian?Sandra? About the deadline and fuss over the countdown clock on the website, there is an expectation of something happening when it gets to zero! An example is lift-off of a rocket, or a better comparison, fresh info on when you can now buy the latest an Apple iPhone or watch. Oh, or the regular Bachmann announcements. Can you imagine the comments if those were followed by silence? I'm only saying not being overly negative. No one was too fussed until a big thing was made about the timer and I was half expecting it to automatically trigger a fancy announcement saying well done - thanks for support - orders now stopped - delivery expected... Yadda yadda. With this being such a major announcement someone must have been around at the time it expired. And I thought someone said the site had been changed after the deadline (2 to 4 max orders or something?) I understand we will not get to know the target quantity from Jason. But we should get to know the number made on the certificate. This might be old ground (please forgive me if it is) but the definition of a limited edition is: noun, an edition of a book, or reproduction of a print or object, limited to a specific number of copies. e.g. "a signed limited edition of 500". All the limited models I have give a quantity made.

Thank you Blackrat and Spams for the patronising comments. In the bigger picture toy trains are, of course, a minor distraction (unless you happen to work in model shop, in which case it's important business), but this is a railway forum where we can discuss such trivialities like model trains... As far as the commercial organisations which are Oxford and DJM, I am simply trying to say that, as a potential consumer/purchaser, I expect their websites to be updated relatively regularly (even if there is no real news) to keep me interested/on-board. If it's not regular, then at least provide some communication when a previously mentioned date/target/deadline/indication is passed. Then, as has been said, there is expectation of news. Isn't that the whole point of of a website anyway - to provide information? It has been said before that posting on here doesn't mean you have posted to the world and everyone has seen it. As for DJM's comments, you can say as many times as you like about the cash flow situation on here, but it needs to be highlighted on the front page of your website so that everyone is clear. The site also needs a simple list of all the announced projects, if only to act as positive encouragement. That's an incentive, a trick being missed. The information is spread out and hard to to find unless you know where to look on this forum. DJM also shows us why the lack of Oxford Rail updates is something I was worried about. It has actually led to him *speculating* as to why there is no news! Hornby don't seem to be worried about telling people how they are getting along (or worried that ideas could be pinched in the process). Cross Fell's words contains a lot of sense. Its not a sound byte I particularly like, but one of the politicians said recently - "wouldn't it be good to under-promise and over-deliver rather than the other way around".

Twice! Why put it in print if you don't want to be measured against it?

If longer... simple to just say so, isn't it? And before your self-imposed deadline that everyone is hanging on. From the Oxford Rail Jan 20 website update: "The development continues apace. We are seeing some first shots of the Adams and we are still on target for showing early samples in April. I have just left the factory and can confirm that all test systems are in place to my satisfaction. It will retail at £99.95 and ..."

To pinch a phrase from the terraces: It's all gone quiet over there, it's all gone quiet... Test shots promised to be shown Q1 (gone) and then April (2 hours left). It's a shame the new broom has contracted Hornby and Bachmann disease so soon... Go on. Prove me wrong and update the website now. Quietly frankly last update on January 20 and nothing since doesn't bode well for what we all hoped was a serious player. After initial fanfare, even DJM are not taking their website seriously and had to be pressured into putting something up on the Class 71 after Hornby did their blog. Before that the latest news was November 14 last year and there is still no updates about all the other models announced.

Sorry if my plain speaking offended. I may not be as eloquent as others on here. But you've given the game away, Arthur. At least I now know that I should have invested before my comments could be taken seriously. It does seem like a 'clique' at times! Nevertheless, I look forward to a couple of nice SR electrics in due course.

I was simply commenting on the lack of information available in DJ product announcements and highlighting the fact that their website had not been updated. This is especially relevant in the light of Hornbys engine shed blog. DJ Models said they will address this in the case of the 71. But there are other models as well. I have not ordered any DJ loco's. I buy my models after I have a chance to see them in the flesh, so to say. Why should Hornby have mistakes? They are both using Lidar scanning information for this model. Hopefully this should mean there are no mistakes on either model. Why cannot anyone say anything critical? I was positive in saying I hoped the crowd sourced model was similar well advanced. I think they were valid concerns and all opinions are equal.