IanN

Work has also commenced on the road bridge. The attached luggage bridge will be added later in construction ( I’ve not started it yet). The luggage bridge has a challenge in that there were signals mounted in it, and the completed structure has the challenge of having to be removable as it is across a baseboard join!

Hi Sun VI “I think that I've found Elbowend junction here: https://maps.nls.uk/view/82882194 just to the south of Dunfermline. However, on the map it's labeled as 'Charlestown Junction' - is this the right place? “ You’re very close. It’s the next map to the west/left from the one you found. Charlestown Junction is the junction off the main line. Elbowend Jct is about a mile along the branch and had lines to Netherton Goods and Charlestown Jct at the east end, and the Kincardine branch and Charlestown branch at the west end. If you substitute 82882194 in your link with 82882113 you should find it near the top of the map. Regards

Elbowend Jct. Some might consider it had two for a time.

When the insulated van first appeared as a kit, I mixed a little BR Rail Bue with white until achieving a colour similar to that used by Peco on one of their N gauge wagons. Whether that’s still an option with modern paint formulas, I don’t know.

In context, Jason Leitch was responding to a comment regarding holding Edinburgh Hogmanay Street Party in April - 30,000 people in a fairly restricted ( outdoor) area which in previous years has lasted @6-7 hrs. Whether MRS proceeds or not, is most likely to be determined by the Scottish Covid restrictions update currently due in mid-January, and the organisers ability to comply with that. Until then, lack of official statements regarding the exhibition suggest to me that MRS remains scheduled.

Hi William may I offer a couple of observations based purely on your block plan and notes. It’s quite possible other factors I’m unaware of will render them irrelevant. 1. power sections f & j always work together unless I have misread your notes. Could the duplication be removed and have these as a single block/section? 2. If points 11 are set for the crossing, then interlocking should prevent signals 1, 5, 9, 2 & 6 from being operated ( the line being blocked before the next signal (10). This would suggest that power sections r & t could be combined into a single block. 3. reference to lever 22 powering section r appears incorrect 4. I’d be inclined to extend t past shunt signal 21 towards signal 10. This would enable anything being shunted to remain under power until it is clear of the shunt signal. If this was continued all the way to signal 10, it would then be possible for section y to be commence immediately after the signal making w redundant 5. Levers 18 & 20 appear to have the sections being powered transposed. Better to be aware before the wiring starts…… 6. Signal 25. I think think this would be better as an Outer Home signal than the Distant. The distant would only be pulled if one of the three Homes was clear, and if sig 99 was also clear. Depending on location, sight lines and distances involved some location, such as Princes St, the Homes giving access to the platforms weren’t supposed to be cleared until the arriving train was stopped at the outer home or passed it at walking pace. Will moving the signal levers result in signals changing on the layout, or are they just to supply power? Even if operating signals are intended later, it’s better to include the wiring from the outset, rather than trying to retrofit. Will a ‘run on’ be require whereby a signal can be reset to danger after the train has passed, but the power supply after the signal is maintained so the train continues its way? Or are the distances on the layout sufficiently short that the train has been stopped/ runs out of track before the signals are set to danger again? The P4 North London Group did a series of Building the Layout articles in Model Railway Constructor for their model of Bodmin. Two or three of those related to powering track through signals which you may find interesting if you can get a copy.They also covered interlocking and how to replicate it electrically. From memory, this was within the period 81-84. It’s a series that I’ve long thought should have been compiled into a single publication. Cheers Ian

I must agree with Tony regarding operation. I also have built and operated models that have the “traditional” approach of separate power, point and signal switches, and the “signalman & driver” approach. Personally, I find the latter much more enjoyable. My current layout is an interpretation of a real location has four lines into the station, and will replicate the prototype’s signals. It uses two controllers, one switchable between up or down line, the other between down slow or carriage siding ( up loop) using centre off switches. These pairings are intended to minimise the risk of accidental collisions. This is because although points and signals are interlocked for departing, the arrivals side, due to my omitting 40 or so levers for the route indicators, isn’t . Although not insurmountable, this would have increased the complexity of the interlocking considerably. I chose not to switch the power through the signals. DPCO switches are used for the levers, the second set of contacts being used for basic interlocking wherever possible. Aesthetically, not as nice as a proper lever frame, but cheaper and more robust. Isolating switches have been used on the platform roads as the train engine is trapped until the carriages are removed. What I found to be a useful exercise was to document the generic movements I wanted to replicate. Then prioritise them eg How vital is it to have a train arrive at the same time as another departs? How many simultaneous movements can one person control? You will almost certainly need to use relays, and remember to document everything as you go! All the best

I must agree with Jamie’s final sentence. As one of the demonstrators, I reckon I spent less than 30minutes over the event not talking to people, and 90% of the information cards I’d printed were taken by (hopefully) enthused modellers. I know the other demonstrators were similarly busy. From my perspective, a thoroughly enjoyable and successful event. Ian

I can only agree with the opinions of others. An excellent day out. Quality layouts. Thought provoking, inspiring demonstrations. Especially the “ski jump” to determine haulage capability! Nice venue. Ample parking. What appeared to be a good turnout to support the event. Friendly atmosphere. A superb credit to the organising team. Samples of the points and track being produced by PECO for the EMGS looks very good. Well worth the trundle down the M74 in Vitalspark’s next jalopy!

And one of the other terminii... Some old and more recent photos. Still work in progress. Apologies for quality of images. Just out of interest, was the dairy mentioned above the one that was the final destination of the early morning milk train into Princes St? If so, does anyone have any information about the rail vehicles used in the late 50s? Thanks

Hi Jamie From the photos I have, the flat bottom rail appears to be restricted to four points and a panel or two of track to distance the change from Flatbottom to bullheads way from the point. The four points involved are the two at the Stirling end of the platform/centre roads, and the down facing point into the platform/centre road and the adjacent point from the down platform to the siding. All were flatbottom after the changes to the scissors. Afraid, I don't have any photos that clearly show the points before then. Ian

Thanks Gazman424. Much appreciated.

Within the research material already gathered was a copy of a photo of a green BRCW Type 2/ Class 27 standing in the Up platform with part of the Up scissors clearly visible. This challenges the 1959 date as the first of these locomotives was introduced in July 61. It doesn't rule out that the scissors weren't removed at separate times, but there's been no sensible obvious reason identified for doing so yet. Unfortunately the loco number isn't visible in the photo, preventing the possibly of more accurate dating. The quest for when the scissors were removed continues, concentrating on the period July 61 - March 63.

Grumpy? Happy? I'm not sure being named after the dwarves is better than everyone being called Dave......

We know there was a 40 speed restriction through the platform road in '64-65, possibly earlier. 20 for the centre roads mentioned in the S.A. would be about right in anticipation the train would frequently be drawing to a stop. The centre roads being the diverging route from both Up and Down line. The original scissors crossings, being on a curves were probably 5mph when crossing from platform to centre or v.v. Photos indicate the replacement crossings took up the same length as the scissors they replaced, so speed limit probably remained, but somebody forgot to amend the description from scissors to crossing. Ian

Hi Seahorse http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Larbert-Railway-Station-Photo-Bonnybridge-to-Airth-and-Plean-Lines-Caledonian-/261552929267?hash=item3ce5c4f9f3:g:62sAAOxywh1TFyC7 This link (hopefully) gives an indication of what the North end of Larbert station looked like much earlier than our period. Colour schemes, fashion, rolling stock, replacement ground signals and the two lower quadrant signals ( which were later replaced with upper quadrant arms) are the key changes for the beginning of our period until the removal of the scissors and the associated re-signalling work sometime during the period. The photo was taken below, or very close to the road bridge that crosses the line at an angle dividing the platforms in two, and is looking towards Stirling. Note that the signal has a miniature arm for movements from the (Down) platform behind the camera to the Down centre road. The signal protecting the scissors from the centre road had two full sized arms and are located on the footbridge on the other side of the road bridge, behind the camera. As can be seen, the scissors were not opposite each other, the Up scissors commencing under the road bridge. It too had two signals under the canopy for the platform road, both of which appear to be full size arms. These remained after the re-signalling. There was a movement whereby local services terminating at Larbert from the south, stopped in the Down platform behind the camera, then empty of passengers, moved forward onto the Down centre road. When convenient, the loco would propel the carriages back onto the Up centre road, where it left them before running round the carriages using the Up platform line. Finally propelling the carriages into the Up platform in the photo ready for the passengers to embark. Due to the use of the scissors crossings, this entire movement could be completed while keeping platform faces available for another train in both Up and Down directions. Regardless of location, I can't personally recall a similar set of movements on any layout I've seen over the last near 50 years. The scissors will undoubtably enhance the visual impact and the operational interest of the layout. Without them, you only have one through running line platform in each direction assessible from a single entrance/exit. With them you have two medium length through platforms in each direction accessible from two entrance/exit points or a single long platform in each direction. As you correctly say, not many people have the space. We're lucky in that respect. I suspect some of the working appendices might contain the answer to our dilemma. There must have been a temporary speed restriction over the lines immediately after the scissors were removed. Hopefully we'll get the answer soon, and then we can build the configuration and signalling that was there the greatest proportion of our modelling period. At least then we'll be right most of the time.... Ian

Thanks for your suggestions guys. The NLS referees to a revised 1:1250 map in 1961 iirc. Old-maps has copies of both a 1960 map and the revised version. Both show the scissors. Photo evidence is preferred as OS didn't always revise the whole map, just the area of significant change . Cheers Ian

The photos on Jim's website I'm pretty sure are '67 onwards. They have contributed useful information regarding other facets for the model, especially if the club ever decided they had the ability to run the layout, once complete, as a diesel era. The station having few changes until the early'70s when the centre roads were removed. I suspect my own layout will be finished before that ever happens though :^) I'll check with the other members, just in case they've already approached Jim Cheers Ian

Hi Phil Quail maps website indicates the first edition for ScR was 1988, so still to late. From what I can recall from looking at one in the 90s, didn't they only show the lines that existed? Years ago I had a couple of books by Pryor for Southern England which showed new, modified, out of use and lifted track, along with the appropriate dates for the change. If that kind of book exists for ScR, that would be really useful. Ian

Afraid I can't speak for Chas's research, but since joining the group, mine has been from RCAHMS, National Library of Scotland, Flickr, Transport Treasury, Railphotoprints, Scotsman archive, Signalling Record Society, Signalbox Org, Caley Railway Assoc., Scottish railway themed books from major publishers over last 15 or so years, Internet searches using both Google and Yahoo ( and getting different results), Old Larbert & Stenhousemuir Facebook pages and eBay. I have also had the opportunity to view photos from Stuart Sellars collection. We know that both scissors crossings existed in July 58. We know the Up scissors survived when green Sulzer Type 2s were in use (the position of the down scissors being obscured by the train). We know that by March 64 they had both been removed. We still don't know when. A photo has recently been seen of a Duchess with late BR totem on tender where the first carriage is a Stanier period 1 Brake Corridor Compo in BR maroon livery. According to Essery & Jenkinson, these coaches were withdrawn by Aug 63. Therefore the photo is in the period 57/58 - 63. This falls within our period. However, the Up platform and centre road starter is the original Caley post with upper quadrant arms, not the more usual one that features in photos from 64 onwards. Was this also replaced at the time of the track and signalling modifications? Larbert South signalbox also changed over the years. The original ground level windows and door were bricked up and a new door way created. Point rodding the came out the side of the building was moved to the front. Was this done when the auxiliary flat roof, brick shed was constructed, and did that coincide with the other track and signalling work . Incidentally, I haven't seen any photos showing the rear of the signal box. As has already been indicated by my friends, any information will be very gratefully received.

"...no appetite for the revolutionary concentric DCC T gauge end to end model of Edinburgh Princes Street to Dundee West ..." Now you tell me. After eating two giant sized Toblerones to use the boxes for one of the signature bridges! Good job I didn't mishear it a 'G' scale. Better find a use for this them Ian