Engineer_London

Related to post 1737. The BR test unit reached quite a number of places on the Underground, not only Hammersmith but also Northfields ... Post 1079 on this page: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60196-the-human-side-of-the-railway/page-44

Image made from two exposures. 26 November 2018 22:34 Baker Street platform 1 Engineers train stabled as part of B2F [baker Street to Finchley Road] night track work.

Attached sketch shows typical configuration for the bus line [termed the 'Train Line' on Metropolitan Railway technical documents]. The graphic shows relative positions of vehicles, electric locomotive [pointed symbol], and configuration relative to the line. Taking a typical full formation, there are Third Brake coaches at outer ends, with the truck beneath the brake compartment carrying shoebeams and shoegear. Preserved Main Line stock vehicles B3 427 and 1/3 Composite 509 both have traction receptacles still in place. Main Line Stock to 1933 R3 min 3 Traction Supply bus line - Copy.pdf

Some useful references if further research is needed. Mentions and pictures of the coaches in France crop up in Modern Transport 1963/05/25 and in articles or letters in Underground News April, May, November 2016 and October 2017. Underground News items also mention similar articles in 'Archive' and 'Backtrack' magazines. I hope I can make an observation on post 17, related to Bogie Stock, without causing upset, please: I support the point that the currently-available Bogie Stock in 4mm kit or 3D form does not include the steam-era coach configurations. There is no available item that has the body arrangement for the First Class Bogie Stock coach, either. This makes it difficult to form not only a steam-hauled train but also any of the electric stock formations [M, N, W, Y] of the Metropolitan that included Bogie Stock coaches. I don't have the skills to build from scratch so live in hope of obtaining kits for 3-4 Firsts one day, in whatever material is best for quality and getting it to market.

Many thanks for the buffer stop test film's link in post 26914 in this thread: https://player.bfi.o...ord-1945-online After viewing this, I found in the same website a film with scenes on the Witham to Maldon East line in the late 1950s. I couldn't find a previous mention of this film in a quick RMWeb search. As well as general interest, and its East Anglia and Eastern Region context, it contains some vignettes of places and activities on the line that could be useful for modeling: https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-witham-to-maldon-east-1957-online

As in post 4 - In the early 1960s I saw a device not far from the siding exit which I was told was a derailer, something like this: https://goo.gl/images/WiQH9z found in: http://www.clag.org.uk/3rd-4th.html I am happy for the experts to correct me, as it was a long time ago. Similarly, from post 23, "All that would be missing would be Q and R Stock.". I will bow to the experts, however I believe this combination might have been covered by the District trains over the North side of the Circle on Sundays, many years ago. On further information, I have spotted a small detail within an old drawing of the station that shows an elevation of the buffer positions on p1 and the siding. Centre-to-centre of tracks approximately 18 feet.

Better images this evening, still not ideal: The view towards the stop mark for platform 1. Another building sits on the siding footprint these days. A closer view of the structure around the hydraulic buffers, which are modern items together with buffers more suited to modern stock. The stop mark is well short of this. A view of the old brick structure, still in place, which I guess was a 'rest room' for the crew unloading wagons of coal into the Chiltern Court bunkers. The picture gives an impression of the space behind this structure where the siding would have been. A side view of the structure around the hydraulic buffers for the platform road. I'm sure that there is a narrow walkway behind the door that passes right behind the hydraulic installation and also behind/above where the siding buffer block was [or still is?]. I guess that the access door is original, and the poster frames alongside are Metropolitan in origin, with traces of the railway company name in paint at the top of the frame. Almost opposite, on the back wall of platform 1 there is a more well-known restoration of a Metropolitan-era sign advertising the Chiltern Court Restaurant.

I don't have a lot to hand, and sadly no photographs of the siding in place that add to the story. When very small, I remember the siding, particularly that it had a power-operated derailer for protection against wagon runaway - there was no trap point. In the very early years of my career I visited the Chiltern Court boilers area at a time of reconstruction. I did see where the siding used to end, with a built-in timber buffer. Many years later, I took some very quick pictures in passing and to my embarrassment they are both poor and shaken and spoiled, but I include them here because it may fill a gap until good material surfaces - and I've even managed to get the pictures out of order at first attempt! I believe the siding ran close and straight in a position parallel to the low brick wall in the picture. The structure in the shadows on the siding alignment is a later construction, almost certainly related to the Chiltern Court facilities. The above picture reinforces that the straight siding had good space between it and the platform road. It shows well the curve in platform 1. I want to be a bit careful here as I don't have much evidence or dated material to hand, but I know that Baker Street had many layout variants over the years with quite interesting features. By the early 20th century there was a separate bay platform 1 and up to about 1913, give or take, the platform 1 curve we see continued to swing to the right. The alignment lay roughly parallel to the stairs and alongside the present-day wall where there used to be small shops up to a few years ago. The realignment of platform 1, to end perpendicular to the Circle platform 5, was one of a sequence of Metropolitan reconstructions on the Baker Street site. This also shows platform 1 looking away from the buffers. The earlier platform1 alignment passed to the right of the blue telephone kiosk. The Platform 1 hydraulic buffers - a terrible image but gives a reasonable impression. The brick building with two windows was in place when the siding was operational and the siding lay behind it and extended to the buffer position mentioned previously roughly in line with the back wall of the structure around the hydraulic buffers. It may take a while, but I'll see what more I can find out.

I hope the picture below is helpful - I think it came from an encyclopaedia and reflects the 1939 rebuild. Having seen some of the old drawings of the station, I noticed that the access passage between CSLR subterranean booking hall and the front of the GNR station had to be slightly hogged to pass over the enclosed Fleet Sewer. Note in the picture the 'Show House'. I've not found references to this as yet but I was told it was put in place around the time of the 1924 Empire Exhibition [my family were local, living just up Pancras Road between the main line stations].

Just to complement the original picture, a different angle on the same site, early 1984, from the rear cab of a moving train of 1983 Stock on a fleeting gauging visit.

A grabbed picture of train despatch teamwork, Liskeard Down today, train 1C04

I apologise for responding late, thanks to troubled world of work. There was an opportunity last week for me to detour and ride from Highbury to Drayton Park and back. Not much is visible from the saloon, of course, but I confirm the abandoned junction tunnel, at quite a shallow angle trailing into the Northbound running tunnel. I estimate it's about 2-3 train lengths south of Drayton Park. Riding southbound, there's not much to see, maybe a trace of a cross-passage at about the same distance from DP, but wouldn't be confident of this. Already mentioned is the crossover directly south of Drayton Park, in the brick arch section between Drayton Park's platforms.and the southbound bores. I've checked with some original construction drawings and a later layout drawing, and this particular crossover site is part of the original line design. I think I have the explanation for the small piece of junction tunnel, but I need a bit more time to track down some drawings to confirm - bear with me. Meanwhile, at Drayton Park I seized the opportunity for a swift but low-quality picture over the wall alongside the station, happily including a train, the one I arrived on, which awaited assisted despatch. The greenery is the former Drayton Park depot, much changed from my sole visit just a few weeks before LT operation ended.

Referring swiftly to posts 214 and 215, and aiming to close with thanks and allow the proper topic to resume unhindered: Many thanks to CJL for the additional off-topic information on one of the less-covered features of the branch. I'm very grateful also to CF for the positive response. Who knows what the future holds - I'll certainly learn from the rich pickings and wisdom here. Must admit threads seem to me more like scary and fast-moving anacondas, so I continue for now on the safe fringes, gleaning from RMWeb and all the other sources that surface, and occasionally posting a picture or something factual and helpful from my own narrow areas of expertise. I am about a decade in with the research, and just a few practical results stored away - some experimental boards for the layout [12' + FY with negligible compression], a signalling design and a train movements and stock analysis. Life and work stand in the way of anything more.

Helping, I hope, with a loose end from post 197: "A photograph is known to exist of the GW twin railcar set on the Uxbridge branch in 1960. The search for it continues. Not tonight though ..." Visiting my local history library at Uxbridge a few years ago, I saw the picture of the GW twin and I have a copy of it with me. It is library reference 'UXTP R16' but it is originally a clipping from a magazine, I expect, photographer M. Pope. Specific facts in the caption are: "... ex-GWR twinset Nos W33 and W38 ... leaves Uxbridge on 24 September 1960." By way of irrelevant background explanation for coming up with the above, I'm perennially researching for a model of Uxbridge Vine Street in N [now probably will be a retirement project] so all sorts of material could be of interest, including this thread - many thanks to CF and all. In all the pictures I've encountered of Uxbridge-related DMU operations [and I'm not an expert at main line stock recognition], there have been only GWR/ex-GWR vehicles and the Pressed Steel single car and 3-car stock, and the Diesel Parcels vehicles. I'm old enough to have seen a real one of the latter in the post-passenger Vine Street station somewhere around 1964, when my mother took me down to the rather forlorn station at the end of a shopping trip - we were able to walk straight in through the entrance and take a look around the platform.

A couple more views from Saturday 24 March, each with a small but vital human presence in shot that I didn't spot first time. Tallylyn train en route from Wharf terminus, approaching Tywyn Pendre, and the photographer being observed from the footplate: Tywyn Pendre station with a member of the line team standing ready on the platform, awaiting the next trains to pass:

Today, Tywyn Wharf station:

Feering? - Kelvedon-Tollesbury. I remembered the vehicle body - likely to have been a bus.

Suggestions - but you may have covered them already. The Birmingham Central Library has a large collection of engineering drawings for the Birmingham tramways. A few years ago I made a lot of use of this archive and it seemed to be quite wide-ranging. Worth a try with them. Various transport museums and collections with a Birmingham interest may have a door or door glass - not unusual for these items to survive. The Birmingham History Forum might be worth a look or an enquiry - has provided me with a few clues for tram modeling research in the past.

There was a reserved double-track section of tramway beside Whipps Cross Road, along the edge of Leyton Flats [an isolated remnant of Epping Forest on the East side of London]. It's still possible to walk this roadside section and get an impression of an almost-country route. There's a brief glimpse of the Forest Glade tram stop in the segment of the film beginning around 03:10 - film about Leytonstone in 1938, including streets, transport, a local event and parade, and recreation in and around Hollow Pond, just yards from the tram tracks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaYGmohPByg There are also b/w scenes of this section in books.

Estonian-based maker and supplier of Russian train and tram models: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWOZemRWrQc

Distantly related topic, maybe: http://www.simonknott.co.uk/ipswichunderground.htm

“And, wasn't metrovick actually the former British Westinghouse, purchased with British capital from its American parent during WW1 to overcome restrictions on foreign-owned companies supplying armaments?” and “Very complicated this history lark!” A supplementary observation or two might be of general interest to the audience. The following notes may appear irrelevant to railway signals on the Metropolitan but I think I can claim it’s not too far from topic as there is a small connection: British Westinghouse {BW] was acquired in 1917 by Metropolitan Carriage, Wagon and Finance Company [MCWF], with the assistance and support of Vickers. BW were keen to rebuild their business after WW1 so welcomed this interest. By 1919, Vickers had purchased MCWF for about £13m [a lot of money at the time] and then formed the electrical conglomerate Metropolitan-Vickers [M-V]. Yet by 1928, times and business emphasis had changed so much that M-V was sold to the International General Electric Company and soon after was joined with BTH and others to form Associated Electrical Industries [AEI]. The MV name became purely a subsidiary holding company. So, the M-V name and products gained their place in history within less than a decade. As hinted in post 16, there was potential for competition and business intrigue in the industry, to rival modern soap operas. The Metropolitan connection? The original BW, MCWF and Vickers deals were masterminded by a man of many directorships, Dudley Docker. He was also a Director of the Metropolitan Railway. Main source for the notes: ‘Vickers – A History’, Scott, J. D., Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1962.

Referring back to posts 25 and 26 on the topic of Great Northern and City tunnels, I recall a cab ride in the final weeks of its operation with tube trains in 1974. I noticed [and stored the fact away in the recesses of memory] that there were sections of tunnel where the lower half was not segments but a solid structure that formed a circular section. Seeing this particular series of messages has prompted me to find out a bit more. I don't have to hand the book on the line history which I'm sure will give some background [Bruce, J. Graeme (1976). The Big Tube: A short illustrated history of London's Great Northern & City Railway. London: London Transport. ISBN 0-85329-071-7]. However, I've found some time in recent days to look at drawings of the line's tunnels. An LT transverse section drawing confirms the different tunnel form of my memory. There are conventional iron segments for the upper half, with 8' inner radius A drawing note says segments 23" wide. Lower half of the tunnel is a thicker section - drawing does not have a comment on the material and construction. This lower half section is shown on the drawing at least twice as thick as the segments. This 'wall' section seems to be arranged to support and underpin the top half section of segments, and so sits underneath them a bit like a foundation, and gives a slightly reduced tunnel diameter at the waist. The inside curve of the thick 'wall' runs down each lower side to be exactly at the same level of the invert as the cast-iron section. I'm reading the drawing as suggesting that the lower half-section's segments were either not installed or removed, rather than encased. Another Metropolitan drawing shows where on the line this modified section was used. Loosely, it covered both roads from Old Street but not reaching quite as far north as Drayton Park, with a few short gaps mostly at ends of inter-station sections, plus one tiny extra section just south of Old Street on the run towards Moorgate. This particular drawing has a note referring to the affected tunnel parts as " ... brick inverted ...". My inference is that the rest of the tunnel run on this line was the pure cast iron circular form.

With apologies for not often looking at these web pages, this is a late footnote that doesn't seem to be mentioned. There is a good written history of Metropolitan signaling, albeit not having much detail for modeling signaling assets, in this book: Jackson, Alan (1986). London's Metropolitan Railway. David & Charles. ISBN 0-7153-8839-8. The signaling section of this book was written by Ken Benest, who had great knowledge and expertise on signaling matters.

Many underground railway systems to be found in the mines and collieries of Britain, right up to the last deep mine closures. Systems were extensive, running several miles into the seams from the shafts, with junctions, passing loops and quite steep gradients to cope with, coal, materials and workforce transport. I've had a lot of fun finding out about these systems, layout, stock, motive power and operations, with various narrow gauges and even examples of monorail-type guidance. Rack and pinion has been used and many of the latter-day battery locomotives, small and large, had 'rubber' or 'urethane' treads for much better adhesion on the steeper grades. For me, finding out about these very different underground railways is a nice counterbalance to one of my main interests, the London Underground. As an aside, we’re used to talking about Up and Down traffic directions on main-line railways but in the collieries’ rail systems the designations are ‘Inbye’ – towards the working face and ‘Outbye’ - returning to the shaft. Even though the UK colliery systems are now sealed underground and lost, there are some surviving items of rolling stock and locomotives that can be tracked down at various sites [and measured], though documentary information of a really good standard for modelling seems relatively hard to come by - but I've hardly scratched the surface of possible archive sources as yet. There's an enormous of information with the Industrial Railway Society and some assorted background information to be found on the internet, including papers on developments in rope haulage and locomotives for underground use and one on design of mine cars: http://www.dmm.org.uk/minequar/4401-01.htm There's an interesting paper on traffic control underground: http://www.dmm.org.uk/colleng/6010-01.htm There are some pieces of video from modern times, some are poor quality but show vignettes of underground running and the general conditions of life deep under the surface e.g: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu6AX3C0euY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drB-_6_Nv7o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLcpYBX4qbg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHz-XokrHiI Finally – just for light entertainment - definitely not Underground and not truly a system, but worth a mention as an Under-something railway. It’s an under-the-road railway, part of the maintenance arrangements for the Second Severn Road Crossing. There was a short internet article on this, can’t find it now, but there is a brief sequence in the middle of this video piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg2cQECBQQ8