PGH
-
Posts
650 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
16
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Gallery
Events
Exhibition Layout Details
Store
Posts posted by PGH
-
-
Ah, it looks very nice but who took that photie and when? Coat, hat...
Oh yes, very amusing indeed. Just purely as a matter of interest Caledonian how many prototype photos have you posted on this forum ? (I've posted one thousand one hundred and forty one - all of my own taking if you'd posted anything like that number you might be a little less flippant about crediting the photos correctly, where possible)
-
What an odd post. On the one hand you grumble that chapter and verse have not been provided, when the pics were offered as suggestions of how a loco might look, then you go on to say that actually a Peckett is a Peckett and different versions are all the same to most.
And actually, managing to introduce a grumble into such a thread is quite something. A more informative and inspiring few pages are hard to imagine.
That's a rather twisted view of my remarks although no doubt you felt it necessary to make some unfavourable comments.
Most are probably satisfied with photos of "typical" Pecketts merely to illustrate weathering and couldn't give a damn who took it and when but lack of information just arouses my curiosity.
-
My previous comment was made purely within the narrow context of the quote above it. It was not intended to criticise you for posting pictures of locos other than W4s. On the contrary, sourcing such good quality colour photos of any industrial locos was no mean feat. What you provided was interesting and valuable. Please, keep posting.
Everyone likes to see a good photograph and we should no doubt be grateful for those who take the small amount of time and effort to download or copy an image from another source and post it here. However does it ever cross your mind when commending this effort that this photo is actually the work of some unknown uncredited photographer who has spent time and effort visiting the location; photographing the subject, sometimes spending time waiting to get it in a suitable position; processing the film (or paying for the processing) if its pre digital; scanning the negative or slide; editing the result suitable for publication and composing a suitable informative text for the caption (probably ignored when the image is copied).
Perhaps they deserve some credit ???? Just a thought.
-
1
-
-
I do wish people would record full details of any image they 'lift' from other sources (I assume that applies to the photos included in Post #83 - correct me if I'm wrong) and provide these details when they republish, such as where it was taken, when it was taken, etc, etc. These details may not be of interest to them but would be of interest to others. For example I find it hard to believe that the original photographer of the last image in the above post would have published it without giving these details.
As for the different types of Peckett, I think to most people a Peckett 0-4-0ST is just that, a Peckett 0-4-0ST and they don't really care whether its a R2 or a W4, or whatever.
-
1
-
-
I find I need to read a question on here before I am able to decide if I can answer it.
The question is about something quite obscure, and so far it seems fewer than 1% of the people who have viewed the post have any knowledge that they can impart.
Yes, I agree, I normally read a question before I decide whether I can answer it. Do some people know the answer before they read the question ? My word, that must be clever, some kind of telepathy perhaps ?
The point about the 100+ was if nobody else has come up with the answer, perhaps somebody more familiar with the Newport Area, I should make the effort otherwise the question would probably remain unanswered, although the only info I could offer was from the quoted publication.
-
Apparently 100+ members have viewed this post but no additional information has been added, so being the curious sort I'm tempted to look for any additional information. I've no personal knowledge of the area and the only source I have available is the Industrial Railway Society's handbook "Industrial Locomotives of Gwent" - still available on the society's website for a relatively modest sum considering the wealth of information contained within.
No locos are listed for Morris & Griffin or the Usk Chemical Works. However I don't think the sidings serving the chemical works were extensive enough to justify their own locomotive so presumably any shunting required would have been carried out by the locomotives serving the adjacent Great Western Wharf. This had four 0-4-0STs - a 1883 Hunslet (disposed of at an unknown date) and a 1889 Black Hawthorn (Scrapped in 1931). These were superseded by two Barclays bought new in 1913 and 1925 which lasted until rail traffic ceased circa 1964.
-
The thing about the closed cab and running plate doesn't really come into it as the prototype pictured isn't a W4 anyway. I'm not sure exactly what it is but it is w/n 1690 and so would have been built around 1925, by which time W4 production would have ceased. Could be an R2?
Correct an R2, a 12" cylinder loco, the W4s were larger with 14" cylinders. Ex works 1.7.1926
-
Andrew, thanks for the link to the Williamthorpe photos.
I've checked IRS records for the colliery and this gives the information that locos for shunting were supplied by BR under a long term contact until 10/1967, after which date NCB locos were used (3 diesels) until closure of the colliery in 1970. On 9/8/1955, for example, the colliery shunters were BR 47004 and 58153.
-
Seeing the Jinty on the layout, am I right in thinking that one or two of them were sold to the coal board and one ended up in an orange livery? Afraid my knowledge is lacking on whether this happened in the area you’re modelling.
Thanks for your comments Andrew.
As far as I know the only Jinty sold by BR for NCB service was 47445 to the British Oak Opencast Disposal Point, Crigglestone, Yorkshire in 1966. I saw it there in June 1970 out of use, and noted it was painted black with orange tank sides and bunker and red footplate valances. The following month it went to the Midland Railway Centre at Butterley and I believe its currently under restoration.
Three Jintys are known to have seen short term NCB service in Lancashire - 47669 was loaned to Walkden when their ex North Stafford Railway 0-6-2T was restored to North Stafford livery at Crewe for display at Stoke-on-Trent in 1964, it would only have been at Walkden for a couple of months at the most. Bickershaw had two on short term loan in 1957 - 47298 noted there in Feb/March 1957 and 47452 there for a bit longer later in 1957 after BR damaged the Austerity FRED, the loan of the Jinty and repairs to FRED being paid for by BR. There may have been others on loan for short periods.
-
Will the 1/48 scale matter?
Anyone going to draw up and offer a Porta "plantpot" chimney? A correct steam dome and firebox backhead might just tempt me into building another.
It should read 1/43 scale. I've checked the finished chimney against my original drawings and it is correct for 7mm scale.
The 3D designer is a modeller of US railways, hence the 1/48 scale, but he is working from my original 7mm scale drawings and all parts come to me first for checking, so all the parts produced for this project will be correct for 7mm scale.
Update: Scale on Shapeways page has been amended to 1/43 scale
-
The 3D parts are being designed by Alexander Clark and will be available from his Shapeways shop, Boxcar Models, in a variety of materials as they become available.
The prototype dimensions of the loco have been taken from copies of the Hunslet general arrangement drawings and the Giesl chimney from a drawing supplied by the manufacturer and used for fitting the arrangement by the NCB's Walkden Workshops.
Update 28/9/2018: Some problems have been experienced with the 3D parts, including distortion, warping and sizes not within the specified tolerances, so until these are resolved most of the parts are not currently available.
-
1
-
-
A very clever scratch build, or a kit I haven't come across yet?
Have you a list of the giesel locos?
Its a scratchbuild with some parts produced by 3D printing, more details later. A bit too early to describe it as clever - better wait to see how it progresses !
A list of NCB locomotives fitted with Giesl ejectors was given in an article in the Industrial Railway Society's RECORD magazine, issue No.196 published in March 2009. That article detailed other modifications to NCB locos including the Hunslet underfeed stoker & gas producer system, locos fitted with diesel powered underfeed stokers and (believe it or not !) oil firing. There was an update with amendments in issue No.203 of November 2010, which was a special issue devoted to Austerity 0-6-0STs. I believe that back issues of both are still available - see the society's website.
In brief, the first NCB loco fitted was HE 2859 at Baddesley Colliery on approval. Following tests which showed some improvements another 45 units at least were supplied. In the article we listed 40 locos known to have been fitted, there may have been more but at least two units remained unfitted at NCB workshops. the 40 known locos included 28 Austerity 0-6-0STs, 2 Andrew Barclay 0-6-0Ts, 2 Andrew Barclay 0-4-0STs, 1 Kerr Stuart 0-6-0T (a Victory), 1 Manning Wardle 0-6-0ST, 3 Peckett 0-4-0STs and 3 Bagnall 0-6-0STs.
-
3
-
-
So what's next ?
The layout operates as planned - as the title of this topic - moving coal from one end to the other. There's plenty of locomotives and wagons to operate on it. What it really needs is more buildings (more brickwork to paint !) and scenic details, which doesn't really appeal to me at the moment.
However as its supposed to be inspired by the Walkden System what it should have is some locomotives beginning with a capital "A", here's a clue:
to be continued
-
9
-
-
Whether it be full size preservation or creating models, the person paying the bill decides the livery and its appearance. I do begin to worry about the sanitized way we present the coal industry and its locomotives. Every year there are fewer people who lived amongst the strange beauty of the collieries and the wilderness of stockpiles and muck stacks. I hadn't thought of myself as a "filth fanatic", but someone attempting to pay tribute through the models to a lost industry and it's workers. Unless I choose to build a layout based on the Area Workshops the grime is equally important as the correct spoked wheels.
Oh dear ! here we go again, the belief that colliery locos have to be covered in filth to have "convincing realism" or be "truly representative".
-
2
-
1
-
-
- Popular Post
The problem of gravity working wagons off the canal tippler has been mentioned earlier. A reasonably acceptable solution has been the provision of short lengths of thin transparent plastic mounted vertically to catch the wagon axles.
These are not too noticeable with the normal layout lighting
Perhaps this makes it clearer. They need to be off the track centreline, otherwise they tend to flick up the 3 link couplings.
(Note - The background scenery in the video is "work in progress" - it needs blending in with the layout scenery)
tbc
-
21
-
- Popular Post
Some other 'home' locos which are not strictly in keeping with the South Lancashire Coalfield theme are or have been used on the layout occasionally.
The Beyer-Garratt, for which I can claim absolutely no responsibility except paying (quite a lot) for it. The loco was built by Paul Berntsen of New Zealand, originally for his own use but redundant when he changed his layout to narrow gauge. Its not yet converted to DCC so hasn't seen use on the layout since that was changed to DCC. Being a Mancunian by birth and brought up just a stones throw (assuming you could chuck a stone 1/4 mile) from the Beyer Peacock Works it seemed a rather appropriate purchase at that time, nearly 20 years ago.
The Ixion Hudswell Clarke. No doubt the
filth fanaticsSorry, weathering experts won't like this one, but officially its the loco given to visitors to operate, a very smooth runner and slightly lower in height than the other locos so it will just fit under the screens. If its accidentally run under the screens while loading wagons (usually prevented by dead track sections which should normally be switched out) it won't cause any damage.
A replacement chimney has been made and fitted and a few extra cab details added, such as brass water gauge castings.
The BR Class 04 built from a Vulcan Kit. I'm not a great fan of BR diesels but must have quite liked these when the kits came out. It tends to be a bit slow for shunting with its realistic gear changing and reversing and tends to be used only very occasionally, more for amusement than anything else. The NCB did have some of these, although not in Lancashire, and it could have been done in NCB livery
-
24
-
Its just over 12 months since I posted in this topic - how time flies. There hasn't been any progress to report on the layout although much coal has been moved, sometimes with visiting locos like these two Minerva Pannier Tanks.
I am reliably informed that one will shortly be returning in green livery as South Wales Area NCB 7754.
or a Dapol Jinty, courtesy of Larry (coachmann) before he returned to 4mm scale.
Most of last winter was occupied in building Penrhyn Railway wagons in 7/8" scale 45mm gauge, as described elsewhere on the forum here:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/133709-penrhyn-railway-wagons-in-78-scale/
and Slaters 16mm scale 32mm gauge WDLR bogie wagons to go with a live steam Accucraft Baldwin, as shown here on my small backyard layout
Different scales, different gauges, but both have had outings on local 16mm Group meetings over the summer.
But back to the topic......
tbc
-
13
-
-
I did wonder myself about that building at the right hand end of the footbridge. It looks like a house but its on railway land so must have had some railway use. I checked google maps and it seems to have disappeared although the area round the station is now overshadowed by trees and you can't get that open view from the overbridge in my 1975 photos.
The wall on the right is a bridge parapet, there is actually a river running under the station at that point. Well you did say you would be doing the baseboards open plan in that area - you will certainly need to !
The extract from the 1961/2 1/2500 OS map might be of interest. Reproduced from the old-maps.co.uk website, who do allow reproduction for small scale non profit use. (00 gauge is small scale to me !)
-
3
-
-
Larry, the other loco in addition to KING GEORGE V was CLAN LINE and the date 26th April 1975
-
4
-
-
9610 on a loaded train from Minera near Caello Brickworks in March 1966. The load appears to be fine material, probably sintering limestone headed for Shotton Steelworks. This would be graded smaller than 1/8" size but passing over a 60 mesh (approx. 0.01"), so only the finest dust excluded but note that the wagons are not sheeted.
Most of the wagons are lettered for Iron Ore traffic.
-
3
-
-
Thanks for this. Ruston came round yesterday and we were looking through the IRS handbook and found this same info. before I read your post. Great minds etc.! A view of the wagon drawing would be good, thanks. When did you visit Minera to take your photos?
I visited the quarry only twice, in January and June of 1964. I'll send the wagon drawing attached to a PM when its tidied up as it is narrow gauge. The following may be of interest, if not or if considered not relevant it can be deleted (here we go again !!!!)
I don't know when operation of the kilns and lime burning ceased at Minera. The Disused Stations website gives a closure date for the works of 1933, but quarrying certainly continued after that date as locos were supplied new for the 2ft. gauge system in 1938, 1940 and 1945. Maybe lime burning ceased in 1933 ? After Lythgoes took over only crushed and granulated limestone was produced.
The quarry was the subject of an article in The Quarry Managers Journal for May 1965, mainly covering the actual working of the quarry, but the following extracts may be of interest
"The Adam Lythgoe organization was founded in 1913 by the late Mr Adam Lythgoe, father of the present chairman. Until 1946, it was basically a local, but vigorous, agricultural merchanting business selling lime, manures and farm produce in the south Lancashire and Cheshire areas. At the end of the last war, the advent of mechanical contract lime-spreading, combined with the Government lime subsidy, made it possible for the company to expand rapidly, and its trading area now extends from Hereford to Aberdeen.
To ensure adequate supplies of ground limestone, the company acquired five limestone quarries in various parts of northern England, including the Minera Lime Works. The five limestone quarries were originally acquired to supply agricultural limestone to the firm's retail organization, but the industrial potential was quickly realized and in 1957 it was decided to enter this market. Early results were so promising that a steady expansion and development over the years has resulted in the industrial division becoming the major force in the organization.
The history of quarrying at Minera extends back at least 200 years, and there is reason to believe that this may be a conservative estimate, for it is known that the Roman occupation forces mined lead extensively in the area. Existing records show that quarrying operations were being pursued in the early years of the 19th century and lime kilns bearing the date 1841 still remain reasonably intact on the site.
The Minera Lime Company began operations under this title in 1852 and Lester's Lime Works in 1857. These two companies worked in opposition until 1899 and then as a joint venture until 1954. Production from the area reached a peak in 1901 when 125,000 tons of limestone were quarried and it is recorded that a total of 8 million tons were produced between 1852 and 1954.
The Minera Lime Works were purchased by Adam Lythgoe Ltd in December 1954. A plant was installed to produce agricultural ground limestone and a quarrymaster (this would be the M.F.Freeman listed in the IRS N.Wales Handbook) appointed responsible for the quarrying side of the operations; the company was concerned directly only with the marketing of the final product.
The first steps towards increased output at Minera were taken in 1961. The practice of employing an independent quarry-master for the stone-getting operations was abandoned and staff and labour were employed direct. One of the first results of an extensive market research programme implemented during 1960 was a contract with the John Summers steelworks at Shotton, for the supply of crushed limestone suitable for their sintering furnaces.
The output of this quarry in 1955 was about 25,000 tons, almost all of which was sold as agricultural ground limestone; the production figures for 1964 were in the region of 300,000 tons of which 75-80 % was sold to engineering and industrial consumers.
The rail-loading facilities at Minera comprise a set of bunkers, under which trucks may be shunted, and a tipping point where dumpers can discharge stone direct into empty rail trucks. At present the bunkers (shown in my photo of the Ruston loco) are used for storing and loading sinter stone for the Shotton Steelworks. The Sevenoaks roadstone (the quarry currently had a contract to provide 120,000 tons of -3" stone for the Sevenoaks Bypass) is loaded at a point nearer to the quarry face from a temporary staging arranged so that dumpers can back into a position immediately over the track. This section of the line is to be relaid and more permanent dumping facilities will be installed. A small diesel locomotive is used for shunting and marshalling wagons which, when ready for despatch, are collected by a British Rail locomotive for making up trains in the Wrexham marshalling yard."
Industrial customers mentioned in addition to Shotton Steelworks included glass bottle manufacturers, other steelworks, concrete brick manufacturers, tar distillers and copper smelters. These would have involved different length supply contracts and possibly different types of wagon depending on the size of stone and unloading facilities at the destination. For example the Sevenoaks stone was carried in double door mineral wagons and unloaded by crane grab at a goods yard close to the roadworks.
-
1
-
-
It would be the remains of the 2ft. gauge Lister 4wPM mentioned in the IRS North Wales Handbook, supplied new here in 1938, disused by 4/1953; stored in smithy to 1963 at least; disposal unknown.
The 2ft gauge system was replaced by road transport when Lythgoe Bros took over in 1954, but I did find an unusual 2ft gauge wagon. All steel construction with a very short wheelbase and ends sloped at 45 degrees. I would imagine it was used under the kilns to bring the lime out and then tip it into standard gauge wagons below by up-ending it. May be of interest if you are including models of the kilns. No photos but I do have a drawing of it.
-
One item probably not too evident in the rough track plan in Post #17 is the rather crudely drawn signal on the extreme left, and maybe a feature worth incorporating in the layout ?
Its shown here in a blow up from a larger view. Presumably of GWR origin it was probably used to warn the quarry loco driver when the exchange sidings were occupied by a main line train. The short black post this side of the signal may carry one of the pulleys on the wire connecting the signal to the exchange sidings.
-
3
-
-
The loco which replaced OLWEN was a 48DS Ruston 4wDM RH 224338/44. It actually appears on the web - well partly - on the Truck Net website:-
http://www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=107741&start=0
Second Post, 4th photo down
-
9
-
MOVING COAL - A Colliery Layout in 0 Gauge
in UK Standard Gauge Industrial Modelling
Posted
Rich,
There has been a small amount of progress, mainly on locomotive construction and now covered on here:-
http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/moving-coal-a-colliery-layout-in-0-gauge.7692/page-2
Philip