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I do hope all the answers haven't put you off! They are all correct - it must just come as a bit of a shock that what you thought you might fit in, you cannot. I would agree that looking at some plan books would help. I would advise against CJF's books - not because they are not good, but because they use track geometries that are no longer available. You need maybe an extra 10% in size all round to use modern pre-built points. There are lots of other books. I expect you do not want to spend a lot of money so pick up some "magazine" style books. The Publishers of Model Rail and British Railway Modeller have produced "how to" books for a few quid which go through how to plan, tools needed, how to build etc. ALL railway modelling is compromise, most stations are long and thin (unless you are thinking of Kings Coss or Waterloo!) and so you have to shorten features to fit into the space available. A design book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Designing-Layout-Building-Model-Railway/dp/1874103399 has some thoughts on that process. You have the worst problem of all - too little space, and don't think you can change that by adding inches to the width - you then get problems of not being able to reach to the back of your layout (unless you have access all round?). If you want a station you probably need 9 or 10 feet in length with a fiddle yard on the end. My layout is 11'6 long with a further 6'6 fiddle yard at right angles on the end. I can run 4 coach trains, thats all (loco at the "front" which pulled the train in 4 Mk1 coaches and and a loco at the back to remove the empty stock). It would fit into a straight 15' if I had the room (which I don't) so there has to be a right angle bend which adds a "wasted" 2'6 . So unless you want a "shunting plank" layout you will need a fiddle yard to drive trains from/into and that will eat into your 8'. There are fun compromises. You can just model the platform head end of the layout - so you see maybe a loco and one or two coaches. There is an example on RMWeb but I cannot remember it's name. Keep thinking and asking and don't get put off. There is plenty of help here, but looking at the odd plan book first may help you cut down the questions/time taken to get to your final layout. GOOD LUCK! https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/brm/store/reader-offers/the-brm-guide-to-trackplans-layout-design-volume-3-first-edition/ https://magsdirect.co.uk/magazine/how-to-build-a-model-railway-volume-6/ In both look also for "back copies" since the preceding volumes are just as helpful.

I just love your layout and HATE those coal bins - I would suggest they are misplaced. See the attached which is filched from: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/143092-coal-yard-coal-bins-and-such/&tab=comments#comment-3497256 I don't think that/have never personally seen coal bins up against a line for unloading - most unloading was done from wagon to lorry direct, and only stock between deliveries was kept to one side in bins. Basically renting line space and wagons was more expensive that a bit of real estate in a goods yard. Otherwise the coal was bagged for delivery and delivered. SmallCoalMerchants-2.pdf

Sorry to be a bore but that track diagram simply won't work. The curve for the lower part of the run round loop is impossible, and possibly likewise the upper one. Whilst I accept that what I am looking at is track width including sleepers, there is something seriously wrong with the geometry. Stock will not be able to pass on the upper lines. I assume you are using a track layout designer - it looks like the one my friend uses on his iMac - but there is something screwy with the point/switch templates here. The crossover bottom right gives some idea as to how far the lines have to be apart for passing stock, though again 41mm centres will work in confined spaces - you don't have to have the Peco Settrack 55mm or the 45mm (IIRC) centres Streamline - but you DO need to ensure clearances AND you need to have your curve checker switched on - most planning software will tell you when the curves are wrong.

I think you need to be very clear about what you signed up to if you are to take this course. You need to document what you were told, what promises were made (express or implied), what milestones were agreed (published), what the reporting process was to be, how it was to be accounted for and what the actual performance has been. Before you use any accusatory words you do need to be clear what it was that the money was agreed to be spent on and how it was intended to be disbursed and accounted for. There seem to be suggestions of travel expenses and advertising to name but 2 items which I would perhaps question. I note the VAT implication - but you would need sound tax advice on what the payment could be seen to have been intended for (professional services? it wasn't for a physical item) and when any tax liability would have/should have arisen. Certainly the fact that it has been spent (all or in part) does I believe require more detailed explanation than "leaves a very large problem in the fact that your crowdfunded monies have been spent on the models development in line with the crowdfunding principal [sic]".

Well surely that will answer all your questions? Since you don't know - ask. This is a quite reasonable approach. He should be able to formally answer you. If he does not or does not satisfy you with his explanations then you have real cause to be concerned and can consider your options (which may of course be few). Please can I also stress that email is useless for this purpose, unless you have special technical arrangements, you can neither prove you sent it nor that he received it. This is a serious matter and needs to be traceable if you ever wish to take it further at law.

Your wondering is quite alright by me, but if you don't have a financial interest in the matter why bother? If you do - then ASK HIM to explain. There is nothing in any of the above material that has any real basis in fact - it's all opinion and much of that ill informed. Please can I repeat - and beg everybody to listen - if you have money invested then write and ask what he is about. Write formally to him as director of DJ Models and require an answer. You are entitled to know. Write to his registered business address.

Yes indeed. And why his letterbox (NOT email inbox) should be stuffed full by his concerned customers asking (quite reasonably in my view) for progress statements and forward plans. The amount of speculation and general hot air which is around at the moment is merely obscuring the fact that many customers have been dilatory in holding DJ Models to their forecasts and somehow thinking that all will be right on the night. These unfortunate "press releases" have stirred up a hornets nest. It seems that DJ Models have been remiss (or cavalier) in keeping their "investors" informed. The ONLY way this can be clarified is for DJ Models to get a grip of the situation and make clear statements on all the projects they have under way which are "crowd funded" or they have accepted pre-orders for.

There is a PayPal dispute procedure: "You can open a dispute in the Resolution Centre of your PayPal account within 180 days of payment if: You don’t receive the item You receive an item but it’s significantly different than the description on eBay or on the seller’s website By opening a dispute, you can communicate directly with your seller to work out a problem transaction. If you reach an agreement with the seller you can close the dispute. If you're still not happy with the result, you can escalate the dispute to a claim. We'll review the claim and decide on reimbursement. To open a dispute: Go to the Resolution Centre. Click Dispute a Transaction. Select the button beside the transaction you want to dispute, then click Continue. Select ‘Item dispute’, click Continue and follow the on-screen instructions. Note: Generally buyers must wait at least 7 days from the date of payment to escalate a dispute for an item not received Where an item has not been received, please ensure you have given the seller enough time before opening a dispute" Since the order was not for a physical thing, they may or may not accept the dispute. It's an odd situation. It doesn't seem like a PayPal line of business to me.

Yes of course it should be - what's your confidence level on that? As I say, those affected should be writing formally to DJ Models to find out what the situation is. Absent that information the rest is speculation. Absent any reply to the letter then everybody knows where they are - out of pocket. Hopefully all this speculation will be answered formally by DJ Models.

Please do not. Please write a formal letter and direct it to the Managing Director of DJ Models at their company address, and ask for a written reply - within 14 days? Keeping a copy and getting proof of postage as well - sorry that is so knee jerk for me I forgot it!

All of which is very true. However it doesn't help those suffering apprehension about their potentially lost money. There is little point spending money pursuing a lost cause. Please will one of those affected do the sensible and write and ask what the situation is. It may be that all DJ has done is raise unnecessary (mis)apprehensions.

Roy, I am sympathetic, but there is little I can say or do to help. You asked what you should do and I gave some advice (just as your solicitor would do) as to what you could possibly do about the situation. You (everybody) need(s) clarification. What you say only makes me clearer than ever in my own mind that this project announced in December 2017 has died - but the "owner" (whomsoever that may be) has failed to fairly communicate that to you, or to explain why your money has vanished. I still think a polite letter is worth it. If the answer is what I fear it might be - then you will simply have to write it off and be thankful that it wasn't worse. There is no economic way (for you alone) of pursuing this matter. It is easy for me to say - especially with 20/20 hindsight (all lawyers have it) - but I wouldn't have paid ANYTHING on that prospectus full of "we hopes". Iain

To write politely, referring to his "press release" if you like, saying that you would like to know what the current status is, what the timescale is, what key stages there are ahead and when you will be informed of progress. I would however refer you to the last 2 lines of the initial Announcement you have referred to - it said.............. "Please note this is a DJM crowdfunding project and DJM will be invoicing, designing, and finally supplying the finished model and is therefore totally responsible for your investment. [my italics]. Also: Please Note: Any 'pure' crowdfunding venture is an investment with no guarantee of return, and your invested capital (deposit payments) are at risk. Please consider carefully whether you wish to partake in this venture before ordering."

I do quite understand that. Unfortunately nobody seems to know what the situation is with all this pre-ordered stuff, and until there is some kind of formal announcement this may all be wasted angst. Maybe somebody ought to be writing to DJ politely to ask for details of progress, expected milestones and finish dates such that those who are in danger of "losing" money know whether they have or not. At the moment all this diatribe is doing is upsetting people who may have no cause to be upset. I agree DJ started it - and I would have hoped that he would by now have done something about stopping the speculation.

I really think that this is the whole nub of the matter. Somebody who was known to be a good "producer" of models (I'm not sure whether that was design of product or knowing how and having contacts) was trusted by a lot of people to do something for them all. It may have been over enthusiasm, or naivete but much was expected. This was going to change the way new models were produced. I haven't seen any documentation for all this "crowd funding" (and I'm retired and don't want to) but it all sounds horribly woolly to me. If there is no legal agreement of what was to be done by whom and when, you can of course toddle up to the courts (if you can get a slot) and the dear old judge or arbitrator will construct a contract from what can be inferred by recorded or reported speech (properly substantiated of course!). This is NOT a recommended course of action. Now it may well be that the realisation that so many people have been let down, misled or harsher words if you prefer, is having an awful effect on DJ personally. Now I can understand the desire to "get one's own back" but even if it makes everybody feel better, the ultimate fall out in how DJ is affected may not be what (in our more sober and less vengeful moments) we would like to see happen.

Oh so true! Apparently declaring war on the rest of the industry, and upset many of his potential customers, was never going to be a wise move. Please can we soon give up and let him slink away to lick his self-inflicted wounds?

Mike, registering "designs" is regulated by the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1968. The act of registration does NOT confer "government" or legal (or whatever way you want to put it) approval. IF he feels another has infringed that design it will be upon to him to enforce his rights - if he can. The grounds for doing so are quite clear. A design registered only in England and Wales does not confer any rights in China (or Europe, or the USA etc.). The registration may iself be challenged and expunged. IF (and I don't think anybody knows except the parties) he has registered a design executed by another to which he does not hold the rights then he has (potentially) opened himself to all kinds of repercussions. I don't think that all this "what if"ing is particularly helpful to anybody. What he has done is largely harmless to the industry, and only cost a few quid anyway. It is his intemperate "press release" that has caused quite unnecessary alarm and distress and which many may never forgive him for.

I agree with you. Not only does he need to take a rest (if he can) he also desperately needs some calm, clear advice on a whole range of issues from business management, through PR and the true effect of registering a design (which I can assure him is definitely NOT what he thinks it is - and I am qualified to know). It is so very sad to see what started with such promise and so much goodwill descend into this dangerous farce - dangerous to his health and wellbeing and that of his business. I do hope he recovers his equanimity and his business.

I know the feeling, but Phil has demonstrated many times in his plans that that just ain't so. I wish he had been around to consult when I produced my parallel line layout - but he wasn't. Nature abhors straight lines!

Phil, That is a little unfair for a couple of reasons. Those of us not as skilled and capable in design as you are use the track planning software that way because we cannot think of how to do it better. Your influence and brilliant plans have already made my use of such packages much better. I no longer plonk a straight bit of track down - parallel to the baseboard edge - and try to produce a Michaelangelo from that. We need encouragement. Also, many of us would love to use a design package such as you use so effectively. Perhaps you could persuade your bosses to drop the price a little from £400?

Agree about signal. Perhaps I was misunderstood (or said it wrong) my suggestion was to REPLACE the point at 23 with the double slip and then have the stub line from there round parallel to the main lines for a bit to provide a (small?) head shunt - as per Embsay point 18? It would need some of the edge your embankment removing as far as I can see from the photos.

Hi Brian! Sorry - I should have known you would see that cheap (and unnecessary!) comment. I apologise. Rule 1 applies in all such cases.

I would agree for Berrow Station - the problem is the main line Berrow to Fiddle Yard would be obstructed by any shunting in East Brent. I'd aim to overcome that one if possible.

I saw Berrow in its heyday, and very interesting it was too to a teenager with very little space (or money!). Since then I have learned a bit more and there are many things I would think of changing now. Like: 1) difficult to access Fiddle Yard (though it was plenty good enough for the timetable) 2) no head shunt for East Brent which would close the main line for any access to the goods facilities I think if I were having a go at "recreating" it I would probably move the turntable to the left of the main line, swing the main line wider, move the point to East Brent right (longer FY and maybe space for a small headshunt using a slip?) and place Berrow station at an angle bottom left to top right giving some more platform length. There is something similar here (Deneside - a layout in a small shed) which is good fun Awful signalling but the rest is good. I do have access to Anyrail so I may have a go.

I quite agree, but he has already hacked at his layout twice under promptings on this thread, and there may well be limits to his patience. He COULD just simulate a trap with some pieces of rail. He doesn't have to do as I was suggesting - though it would be more appropriate to do so..