DavidH

Don't forget that the NThusiast issue over the hard drive predates GDPR by quite a few years. Still unlucky/incompetent not having a back-up, but it's important not to get too hung up on the idea of illegality under legislation that hadn't been thought of at the time.

I recall this being brought up several years back, early on in the life of DJM, and he denied that he'd left anyone out of pocket - he'd paid all his debts I think he said. The exact wording will be on RMWeb somewhere (and may prove me wrong, of course).

DJ Models is a limited company.

Quite - it's more difficult to change your communication style than people think. Choice of words is key, and there are of course the text design cues

It's always possible to be wrong, but I don't think so - it would turn on its head the idea that all your professional official announcements should be very carefully checked for errors, in a way that your personal communications, e.g. on a forum, don't have to be. The two accounts have existed side by side far too long for it to be a clever ruse. There is another account, however ...

I have only ordered DJM stuff through Kernow, so I have no experience of his early pre-order system, but had he set it up the usual way so you received a link to click to confirm the order? Or had he set up a system with a loophole that you could just type in an email and it woujld register interest there and then? I recall that for the yellow J94 some people made multiple orders as they didn't get a confirmation, so at some point the system didn't have a basic check built in.

Probably should add "wild over-exaggeration" to your list?

Scales falling from eyes? Maybe with any luck an end to blanket supporting of new projects on the basis of their promoter "being matey" and replaced instead with a careful appraisal of a scheme's, and promoter's, merits*? * Or at least as far as can be concluded from information in the public domain ...

You must have a different definition of "vitriol" to the rest of us

Interesting speculation - I've never seen any indication that each crowdfunder has had separate accounts set up. Was the APT money refunded from Dave's PayPal account, rather than e.g. DJM_APT@P..P..? There must be separate books though - I know I'd find it difficult to keep track otherwise.

Somewhere on here there is a comment from Dave about being disappointed with pre-orders for the N Shark (doo doo doo do do do dooo), hence it not going into production. Did he promote it further at that point, to get more orders?

Someone with a solid business plan would have come out fighting at the start of the week - and issued a breakdown of the live projects with an honest estimate of schedules and some idea of funding in place. And they would have done it without recourse to hyperbole or finger-pointing, or blame-shifting ... Or you could just go on holiday

Trying to stick to hard facts, Companies House says "Ownership of shares – 75% or more".

Well, that's true - I would like one too! But history and experience with DJM mechanisms tells me to not risk any money until the model can be seen and tested.

Why?

Looking at that, I recall Dave's own words back at the start: That was pretty much at the start of the business, after his slew of new model announcements, and we all took his word for it. And then there was this later comment: In his own words, capacity wasn't his problem. He stated his problem slightly earlier: I conclude that the problem, as Dave said back in February 2017, seems to be simply money.

I can't give you the definitive dates - not without more research - but if you haven't got it, I'd recommend Michael Welch, A Southern Electric Album (Capital, 2003). What follows is from that book, so apologies if you know all this ... On p31 there is a photo of a blue 4-SUB on a Waterloo to Shepperton train, it's in blue with small yellow end. The caption says that full yellow ends become the rule in 1966 and it is thought that Eastleigh was painting units blue from July 1966. That's your earliest date. The Southern Region was a bit tardy with yellow ends but you would also have green/full yellow as well in your time period. There's a fascinating photo on p49 of that book, looking down on Lovers Walk, Brighton in 1968, with a great mixed bag of liveries: Mk1 units in blue/grey [7033], all-blue [7724], green/small yellow [73xx]; 2-Bils in green/small yellow, blue; 4-Cor in blue; 5-Bel; and various utility/parcels/brakes in maroon, blue, blue/grey (including a GWR siphon in blue).

My apologies! I was thinking only about the current crowdfunding, and had forgotten that earlier incident.

I think you've got the emphasis back to front. There is no crowdfunding fiasco that has left people out of pocket (that I can see) - or at least, suggestion of such is jumping the gun immensely, as without an official announcement (oh dear) from DJM, these projects are still ongoing. Whether or not people refuse to pay any subsequent installments has not yet been tested. The original announcement, however, just follows a series of unfortunately worded communications, many of which finger point at other people being to blame for DJM's problems. It also suggested a potentially aggressive approach to his competitors (since retracted?) which surprised many people. I shouldn't need to say more, it's been said many times here.

No leeway built in (to the King project)! And no one commented on this at the time? I recall Dave said he was hit quite hard by Chinese price increases - was it on the J94? (as were many others), but to not build in any contingency on other projects seems remiss.

It's a shame, then, that the announcement wasn't the first pre-production sample of the King. The public mood would have been diametrically opposite to what it is now.

I took this posting at face value but couldn't work out how he was going to afford to work on the model: But actually, the second paragraph suggests it might be profitable, depending on orders.

You are the first person here, or at least that I've read, to raise the issue of Dave's salary. But the APT was not-for-profit ...

A friend, running a small market stall, taking PayPal, recently had someone send her funds in error. I don't pretend to understand the system perfectly, but apparently you can just refuse a payment made in certain way (or, simply let it lapse and it goes back), at no cost to the business or the person making the original payment (as far as we can see ...). So what I conclude from that is that you send whole amounts back if you can, as formally refunding an amount other than the original payment could incur a PayPal fee, as PayPal might consider that a new payment. See "how to refuse a paypal payment" via a popular online search engine ...

It's one of the things that has always bothered me - he isn't a designer in the way I think of one, he's doing a complex and skilled job certainly, but it seems to be more akin to project management than design.