Clem

Yes. Thanks Andrew, you've nailed it. That's exactly what I'd be looking for. And yes, as far as I know, there were NER clerestories knocking around the East Midlands but I fairly sure they'd disappeared 5-10 years before my era although it's possible some survived in departmental use.

Hi Jon, yes that probably would be the case. But thanks for the tip. Clem

Hi Graeme, yes that would be a reasonable approach but when you're trying to build a layout single handed to a reasonable standard, it becomes a time thing. And my resin casting components ran beyond being useable so they were disposed of. In other words their would be a substantial overhead to it. If all else fails of course that's exactly what I'll do. one thing for sure, I won't be pursuing the Shapeways solution. I can't justify paying those prices. I am looking at promising alternatives at the moment. On another subject, you've done quite a lot of GN and GC boiler mounting castings. Did you ever do a casting for the LNER produced later utility dome as used by a majority of the O4s from about 1940 onwards?

Good morning Andrew. Those hoppers look perfect for the gypsum trains, and yes, you were right about the price of the GC 10'6" bogies. (see post above). Almost £60 after shipping - more than the kit! I think I'll phone MJT and see where they are with theirs.... or see if its feasible to scratch build them. Your comments here on the sets operating are certainly in line with the photos I have. I now have a kits in for a GC T(10), a C(4/5) and a BT(6). I've had these recently from Bill Bedford although he doesn't seem to be opening advertising them on his web site. I ordered them by phone. I also have a photo of a seaside special which has a gangwayed GE and a standard gangwayed GC carriage (i.e. not one of the Barnum type like the preserved ones) in it. Sorry to be always asking damn fool questions but do you know if anyone does kits for any of the NER non-gangwayed carriages that lasted into the 1950s? They also seemed to appear quite regularly on these lines. I know I have a lot of work cut out for me here but I want to be making a start soon. Your work has certainly inspired me on that front. Clem

Well, I've just been on the shapeways site and found the cosmetic GC bogies. A bit of a shock really. By the time the shipping from the states is included, the bogies alone cost considerably more than the kit itself. What the hell has happened to Shapeways? It used to be that its products were quite reasonably priced. Hey ho. I'm going to look elsewhere.

Ah thanks Andrew. I'll get on to Shapeways. The functional but undetailed 10'6" bogies I've got in are actually Bill Bedfords via Eileens Emp. It's important that I expand the variety of my carriage stock to reflect what was actually running on the Nottm-Derby GN line in 1954-5, so (a) GC matchboard strengtheners is a must as soon as I can get to it. If I can produce something half as authentic looking as yours, I'll be well happy! Clem

Hi Andrew. I hope you are well. I sure you will have noticed this, but just in case, if you build the A5 in the photo, remember to use the round headed LNER buffers rather than the GC oval ones that the rest of the class had. A quick question on a different subject if I may... What did you use for the cosmetic bogie sides on your 60' GC matchboard non-gangway carriage? I can't seem to source any at the moment. Clem

Lovely Tony. Which one is it going to be? (61209, 61281 or maybe 61264 possibly?)

Evening Robert, In my experience trainspotting at Newark and Grantham from 1958-63, Heaton locos tended to be more common than Gateshead locos. I saw all but 3 A4s and 2 of those 3 were Gateshead based. Heaton A1s, A2s, A3s, V2s were all pretty common I believe - I saw all the Heaton A1s and A3s and all be one of the A2s. The V2s were slightly less common in the South (possible because long distance fast fitted freights ran more at night?) and I only saw about half of those. I probably visited Grantham and Newark 10-15 times each during that period.

I have to admit that I feel lucky in this regard. I do my shopping at Morrison's which is an 11 minute walk away from the house. I go very regularly as I only buy enough to fill my small haversack. The route takes me across a little footbridge over a stream and leads on to the Grantham canal which runs by the store. Pre-virus I always used to take the car - interestingly, it is a double the distance by road - and then my youngest daughter Sophie (who has been absolutely brilliant in the lockdown) did our shopping for us regularly for about a year. But since the jabs I've realised just how lovely the local suburban footpath routes are and the trip to Morrison's has become a joy. I'm very careful to stay social-distanced and I'm in and out of the store within 10 minutes max. It just goes to show that things that were once a drudge can become quite enjoyable.

Morning Andrew. Yes I know Hotchley Hill very well. It's now part of the GCR (heritage) northern section and still, I believe, used by BR or whatever it is now (or was until recently) for gypsum traffic via the main line spur connection with the ex-MR at Loughborough. Yes I do know this photo and have the book. Hmm ... a Charles Roberts for the second vehicle and at least some of the 13 tonners as modelled by Parkside. The approach you suggest for filing down the underside is a good idea but I'm not sure how easy making up a jig would be as it would have to accomodate the detail which sits above the plate. Let me know if you do one so I can see how you've done it. It also shows why you are a first rate modeller and I'm just a bodger . While I'm posting, do you have any idea what is the origin of this type of hopper (see below). This is at Rutland Railway Museum. I've noticed one or two of these in the ore trains on the Derby line. Obviously private owner. I wondered if they are an earlier version of the 22T/24T ones.

Yes. Thanks. Must get some in, although the mini milling piece is a bit like a dental burr for a bear or a lion. Funnily enough, I'm not having the same problems with melted plastic clogging the cutter that I have done in the past.

You're very welcome. Think of it as a small pay back for all the inspirational posts of yours (and others). I had considered doing exactly as your suggestion at first but I couldn't see how you could get the detail off without writing it off. In the end the filing was the only option other that scratch building all the detail. One short cut I now use - but it is a bit risky is to use a mini drill with a mini milling attachment . By going down to about 0.5mm depth every couple of millimetres you get a ploughed field effect which can then be filed as normal until the areas are flat. In doing this, the file seems to make far quicker progress. But you have to be careful not to go too deep with the milling attachment.

Following on from last night's post, here below, is the example of the one that is almost complete that I started recently to give you an idea of where I'm going with this. I say it's not complete, but all that's required is some further weathering and axle boxes tie bar painting to fully finish it. Also shown is the shot of the latest wagons supporting plate upside down showing the extra strengthening it requires to hold together until it is finally fixed to its body. Finally, off the subject but I'll stick it in for anyone who's interested, a couple of shots, one of recently added minerals, upgraded from RTRs waiting to go into service and one just for the sake of it.

Hi Andrew, I've just started another Charles Roberts. I'll attempt to record what I do as I go along. I'm afraid my standards are as high as Geoff Kent's but I think they are about passible. I start off with a Bachmann RTR model of the BR diagram 1/162 which of course is what I call the Charles Roberts hopper as that firm made many for both private companies and for BR to this design. This model is not bad in its shape except it's as though it has been stretched 7.5 inches or 2.5mm in 4mm scale. The wheelbase and under frame is totally fictitious (10 foot with a vacuum cylinder and of course 7.5mm too long). So first separate from the chassis and throw the chassis away. The plate above the chassis can and should be separated from the hopper body. We need a 9 foot wheelbase with double 'V's on both sides and fortunately, Parkside do one ref no PA08 which can be adapted to produce something quite close. First of all you need to cut and shut the body and also its supporting plate which sits on top of the solebars. You only need to cut and shut the actual body in one place and take out the full 2.5mm in one go. I do this by cutting on the inside of one of the two stantion strengtheners i.e. in the central part of the body. I use a combination of scalpel with blade and scalpel with custom saw blade.(www.modelcraftcollection.com). Once separated, I scribe a line 2.15mm from the central edge all the way round and using some micro end-cutters, I carefully nibble off the 2.15 all the way round and then gently clean up both edges and dry fit together. Any gaps have to be fixed by strategic filing else where to bring the gap closer together. Once satisfied, I put the two halves together on a flat surface upside down and weld together, adjusting until all sides meet up perfectly. The supporting plate is a little more complicated as the top detail is worth retaining. The first thing to note is the excessive thickness of this supporting plate (1.5mm) and if the Parkside chassis is simply added then the resulting model will be a good 1mm too tall. So I remove by file 1mm of the thickness for about 3mm from the edge all the way round the underside of the plate. Next we need to cut and shut 2.5mm out of the plate. But to keep it symmetrical two cuts must be made, one to the outside of each of the inner small body supports. For this I use a straight razor saw. This time, after separation, I scribe a line 1.1mm to each of the outer pieces and use the same nibbling technique as described above to remove the said amount. This can then be fixed together in the same way as described above. The body and support plate should now have the correct dimensions and dry fit together as shown. The sole bars from the Parkside kit can be added although I file a little off the top to ensure they sit flat and to reduce the running height of the wagon a little further before fixing. This leaves the solebar too shallow by about 0.7mm but I address this later by adding a lower flange under neath later on in the process. Before permanently fixing the body to the supporting plate, the plate needs further surgery and this is where I'm up to on the model illustrated.. The body actually should sit on a semi-open frame and I try to represent this by taking out a large oblong shape at each end of the plate situated under the end supporting stantions to accommodate the bottom door opening gear and also down the sides, close to where the body meets the supporting plate. To achieve this, with a 1mm drill, I drill out on the inside of the shape all the way round and cut and file until it is straight and accurate. See the scribed oblong at each end of the plate ready for this process. After this, I will also drill a series of holes against the inner support of the body and file giving and open framework all the way round. I'll add more to this as I go along later in the coming week. Please excuse me if this description is a bit dry - descriptive writing is not my strongest area.

Thanks Andrew. Now ordered!

Hi Andrew, Can I ask where are you sourcing your kits from. I'm still waiting on three coming in which I ordered some time ago via Eileens.

Ha ha! I've already been planning towards it. But the ore train needs completing first. Then there's the passenger stock that needs building including at least one GC non-gangwayed BT and also a ten compartment Third... and of course the station buildings, another bridge, a goods shed and other scenic detail.... But I'm hoping to build the beer train in parallel, the road-rail tankers being particularly important to give the train its individuality. I need to stay healthy for the next few years just to get close! Andrew, I realise that if it comes down to it and LSG doesn't survive the effects of this virus, that a lot of the motivation and drive for your modelling will disappear. But you have such great talent as a modeller that I hope you find enough space to continue, if only as a secondary pastime to keep these skills intact. Clem

Evening Andrew, Certainly. The GN route to Burton-on-Trent was via Derby, Eggington Junction and then via the North Staffs (GN had running powers) to Burton where the line crossed the Midland on an overbridge (although there was a connection at Horninglow) and into the GN sidings at Hawkings Lane. The GN sidings there connected up to Burton's Brewery lines. I think the Burton-York beer train left Burton at around 6-30pm and comprised of open wagons containing barrels, vans, many shock-absorbing, and flat wagons carrying road hauled tanker trailers. It turned on to the GC at Basford and Bulwell (Basford North). There were also a significant amount of traffic between Colwick and Burton. I think there is every reason to expect the loco change to be in the GC WTT. Probably around 7-30pm. I'd be very interested if you can find it.

Hi Andrew In some ways I could have forecast this reply. Knowing your previous work, very little is a simple reproduction of a kit - probably why I asked. You always seem to go that extra mile (in some cases a few miles) to produce a model that is both accurate and looks the part to my eye. You discussion on the FWTT is spot on to my way of thinking about running a layout. Considering the effort I've put in over the years I spend so much more time building than operating mainly because, without a WTT, there's no framework to build an authentic operating schedule on. You can deduce some things from photos but it's still just a well-informed guess and probably only a partial truth. For example, I have a picture of the beer train at Bulwell Common south with a B16 piloting a K2 coming in from the spur as the K2 had stalled on the sharp, tightly curved spur and the B16 had gone down to assist. I deduce from that that in all probability, the train changed engines at Bulwell with the York engine taking over there. But without the WTT it is just a guess. For me a 1954 or 1955 FWTT would be a game changer.

Terrific model Andrew. May I ask, is it a from a kit and if so what make? It's beautifully finished and subtly weathered. Interesting discussion re. 90%-10%. I attempt a similar approach except I think my 10% is more like 35%! Robert has helped improve accuracy with correct CWNs but I really could do with a mid-50s freight WTT for the GN Derby line. I've been on the lookout for years and I think Tony (Dibatag) who is modelling Basford North is in the same boat. Photographs do help but it's much more satisfying if you can pin the photo down and be able to say for example "that's the 6-30pm Burton-York beer train".

The thought of LSGC not going out again fills me with dismay. With the authenticity of the trains and the wonderful standard of modelling, it really must be allowed to survive this virus, if it's possible. I think it may be a year or so before we can be sure of shows. But I really believe they will be back and as strong as before. In any case I want to be able to see your D210 and other Gresley and GC carriages in action! And don't give up on the B7. It would be great to see one on LSGC. They've always been a loco of interest for me.

Morning Andrew, That's a great snippet of research you've done. I do (vaguely) remember the gypsum trains on the GC but I don't particularly remember the consist of them. I still have a big interest in the GC having lived in sight of the line from 1960-1966. If I remember correctly the locos on the gypsum trains were pretty varied : J6, J11, O4, J39 but they generally stood out as most of the freight was in the hands of the 9Fs apart from the York-Woodfords which were either B16s or V2s. Anyway, I'll be using the 13T to help pad out my ironstone trains although they were as common as the Chas Roberts and the ex-LMS hoppers. I can't fathom why no-one has done a kit for the LMS hoppers - they were so common both on ex-LNER and ex-LMS lines and I think some even got down to South Wales. Looks like I make have to bite the bullet sometime soon and do a batch scratch build. By the way, are you getting back into the club premises yet? Clem

Evening Andrew. Looking good and benefits from the extra detail. I’ve got three of these on order but there seems to be shortage at the mement.

At last! some decent hopper kits. You've made a lovely job of those Peter. I've still got a couple of Bradwell kits of these to build. But they are in brass and take a while to do. I've done just the one so far. At the moment I'm just in the middle of converting a couple more Bachmann Charles Roberts type (BR diagram 162 for the BR ones) for my Stanton iron ore train. Half way through the second and the first needs painting and weathering. Arthur recently sold me his three LNER diagram 124 hopper wagons. They are beautifully built and have been a welcome addition to the train. After the couple in progress, I'm only about 3 or 4 wagons short of the loaded train. They really need to be of the LMS type to reflect the typical mix of the times on the line I'm modelling. At the moment there is no kit for the LMS type which is a shame as they were numerous in the midlands and there is a whole rake of them surviving at Rutland heritage centre if any of the kit makers are listening. After I complete the loaded train, then of course, I need to build a whole train of empty hoppers. :-( Pictures below of wagon awaiting painting and the hopper train as is.