Harry Welch

I think the SB was Sears Crossing, could be wrong of course. Seem to recall that that section of the WCML was in the process of preparation for resignalling as part of the WCML (original) modernisation program.

I seem to recall a BBC interview with Joe Duddington, perhaps on his retirement. Is this correct or am I getting it mixed up with someone else?

I seem to recall seeing an archive (B&R?) DVD of a loco, possibly a Jubilee, moving in a shed yard without a tender. Cant recall if the circumstances for such a movement were mentioned but certainly a strange sight. The shed could have been Stockport Edgeley. Has anyone else seen this?

Pretty certain there is (was?) one at the rear of the M&S shop in Chester, not sure how far round it will turn though.

Not a story of wagons being 'officially' cleaned out but it might be of interest. An old retired goods guard told me that during the summer months in the 1940's and 50', when demand for coal was low, a considerable number of empty wagons were stored on some ex MOD sidings in a semi rural location, just beyond the edge of a small town with very few houses about. Later in the year, as demand for coal started to increase, one of his jobs as a guard, was to collect the wagons to send them back to the collieries. He said that if you were on this job you always arranged for a gang of platelayers to meet you there. The reason was that, during the summer, the locals had swept all the remaining coal and slack out every wagon, and every wagon had the doors down, impossible to put them back up from ground level by yourself. This type of thing had no doubt been going on for years, all over the country, but it was interesting to hear it first hand, and I would never have thought about the doors being open.

I seem to recall that the Middlewich - Scotland (if that was indeed the destination) traffic was running around 1988/89 although I could be wrong on the exact year. Looking at my notes, I filmed the working (on 16mm would you believe!) three times. The first shot was on 7/5/92 and the last was 23/7/94. It certainly went north, the salt would have been food grade and I was told that it was destined for a food processing factory in Scotland where road access was poor and the local council had restricted the salt traffic to rail only. Not sure if that was true or not. Cant remember for how much longer it ran but I'm sure it was for a while after the date above.

I seem to recall that in Cheshire, when the branch to Over & Wharton was still open (where the crushed rock salt was loaded) the signalmen were instructed that no salt train was to be dispatched if it was raining heavily. I think the same applied for the returning empty wagons, which were an even a worst offender, as the residue in the wagons could be washed out by a heavy downpour and still cause the same problems. Rock salt was not sheeted, unlike fine white common salt, from the salt works, which was British Salt Ltd works at Middlewich, which sent its small amount of rail born traffic (to Scotland I think) in sheeted hoppers, certainly up to the mid 1990's, and perhaps later.

I would have thought that the size of the partitioned portion of the wagon needed was dependant on how tightly the animals could be packed in, as Cardoc suggests up thread. Having spoken to an old railwayman many years ago who had some dealings with cattle traffic pre war, if the cows went down on the floor they would be trampled by the others hence the need to keep them standing and, just as importantly not moving about on a moving train. There were a couple of 'drovers' who travelled with the train who inspected the wagons for just such occurrences' at water stops or loco changes. Apparently they used long pointed sticks to prod the cows that had got down on the floor! If the livestock was the responsibility of the railway co.'s (which I assume it was and not 'owners risk') then it was in their interest to pack them in. Charging by the number of beasts alone makes no sense. I assume therefore that the incentive to farmers was to charge for the space taken up, and farmers being how they were/are would pay for as little space as possible.

Here is a link to a 1928 film of the ICI plants (Winnington and Wallerscote) at Northwich, Cheshire in 1928. The very short part of railway interest starts at 4:18 and shows the limestone train leaving the quarries at Buxton followed by the wagon tippler in action which may be of interest to the OP. The introduction of the famous ICI limestone hoppers in 1937 meant that the tippler would eventually become redundant. Wallerscote works is long since closed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3u8Z70iIOM

I have recently watched the BTF 'Second report on modernisation (1961) on YouTube which has some interesting material in it. Link here, The Lea Valley Enterprise, D5579 with headboard, can be seen at 7:59. Its seen again at 8:16 without the headboard so, as has been mentioned previous, put on just form the cameras? The Condor, D5176 with headboard, can be seen at 8:26. Its an interesting film showing some interesting wagons including 'Birdseye' containers and a demonstration of the 'Road-Railer'.

I forgot to add this link to a picture of the inside of the shed, hope it works! https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/42643527705277767/

Having seen the suggestion by 'Steamport Southport' made me take a look at my photo albums. I have a fairly large collection of pictures of Heaton Mersey shed and one of the views is taken from almost the same spot, although not on the same day. So yes it is Heaton Mersey. The 8F at the back of the shed on the right has, what appears to be, a 'painted' 9(F?) shed plate. I have a copy of the Foxline book 'Heaton Mersey motive power depot' by Michael S. Stokes which gives a list of the locos on the last day of steam, one of which is 48687. Same loco nearest the camera? I would post the picture I mentioned above but don't want to breach any copyright.

For many years I often wondered the same thing, although I thought it was sets based at Longsight that had it but I'm no expert on these things. I'm glad that Gibbo has mentioned it as I thought I was the only one who noticed it. Anyway, I was once told that some idiot who lived near the depot (which ever one it was) use to pepper the front panel with an air rifle. Don't know if this was true or a cover story/railway myth but the info did come off a driver I use to know. Some of the damage certainly looked like air rifle marks when seen close up so who knows. Shame because it always looked a mess.

Hi everyone, I have just finished writing an article for a railway society magazine about a short branch in Northwich, Cheshire that use to run down to the River Weaver. In the attached image on the right is a wooden shed with a chute. This is the end of the branch and was used for end tipping wagons of salt into waiting rivercraft. The branch trip working was twice a day so any shunting/tipping of wagons would have involved horse power to take the empty wagons out with gravity used to let in each wagon in turn. Not sure if this is the sort of loading arrangement the OP was thinking about but it might solve a few space problems on the quayside, cranes, stockpiles etc.

I might be reading this wrong but to me the bit 'He was asked by the then head of the soon to be formed British Railways' suggests that Mr TWE Roach designed the BR totem symbol and not the later 'double arrows' that is being referred to in the topic. Apologies if I'm incorrect.

There is a gabled roof salt wagon preserved at the Lion Salt works near Northwich, Cheshire. Not sure of its history but a google search will throw up a few images of it.

Hi everyone, In reply to Big Jim's post regarding the Catch Points triangle sign near Moore this has recently been removed along with the 'clipped out' catch points.

Hi Everyone, here is a view of the Hartford Junction track diagram showing the BR connections to the sidings at Gorstage. They had been removed by then but the connections remained until final closure of the box in1997. The picture was taken c1996 when nearly all the signalling worked from the box had been disconnected but remarkably it remained open for about 2 years. This explains the wiring hanging out of the back of the block shelf! Just out of interest the trap points No 33A could not be approached in the 'trap' position as they had to be turned before you could reverse 20 points. I wonder how unusual that was?

The TOPE mentioned by 'Pendlerail' is still there at Ince Moss near Wigan. It has been there since at least 1999 and by all accounts quite a few years before that. Despite having been there for the best part of 20 years it appears to be in quite good condition but with all the siding connections removed and poor road access I assume it will be cut up on site. If any one is interested it's number is DB 970159

Hi everyone, Just been reading this topic and thought you might like to see some slides I took when the factory was still working. Not certain of the date (I was never one for dates but will try and route out the processing date for them if any one is interested).. Working was I think usually a class 40 but not this day, oh well! Think I might have a few more somewhere but very poor quality.

Sorry, here they are.

Hi everybody, As promised here is part of a signalling plan of the Hartford Jct area dated 1995. The lines that have been scribbled out were removed when the SB was abolished and taken over by Winsford SB in 1997. The layout here was changed yet again as part of the West Coast Route Mod in 2012. Other than the pictures I mentioned in an earlier post and perhaps some slides I might have taken of the BR/ICI sidings connections, I think this is all I have but will keep looking. I do have quite a few pictures taken around Hartford Jct in steam days in my collection but AFAIA they are all copyright so unable to post them on here but will check them. Have a look in the late Alan Wilkinson's books 'Railways across mid Cheshire' (Foxline 2001) and 'Crewe North' (Ian Allan 2007) for views of both Oakleigh and Gorstage sidings in steam days. I could be wrong but I'm sure that 'Crewe North' was only a working title that Alan was using as the book was not quite finished when he passed away. Anyway hope this is of interest.

Hi everyone, Here is part of the resignalling notice I mentioned above. Hope it is of interest. I have one dated 1993 which I will put on here in the next day or two.

Here is the map.

Hi everyone, Woops! After the prompt by 9FEd I realised that I had not posted the end of the map at Hartford Jct (LNW). Very sorry about that. Hope this answers your question. The layout at Hartford Jct and its main line connections was altered in (I think) c.1971/3 about the same time/in connection with the closure of Acton Bridge SB. I have the 'G' notice for the 1960 resignalling through here if that helps any? Also worth a look are Swifts 1950's layout plans Vol 9 published by the Signalling Record Society which shows the layout and signals before the Modernisation in 1960.