adb968008
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Posts posted by adb968008
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2 hours ago, nightstar.train said:
And for those like me who don't have the full Platform 5 pocket book memorised:
45212 is an LMS black 5
35486 is a Mk1 BSK support coach
6000, 6022 and 6103 are all Mk2F SO in maroon
1860 is a Mk1 RMB in maroon. Has this been CDL fitted, or will they use it with the doors locked OOU?
3360 is a Mk2F FO in Pullman umber and cream.
Interestingly on the now withdrawn exemption list … only 1860 is listed.
The rest are not in the doc, so are either not needing an exemption, or not exempt.
A video online shows cdl on all but 1860 and 35486.
I wonder if the 47 will be a tail gunner on passenger services or if 35486 has some mods ?..
35486 used to be the support coach for 60009/61994, not sure this would go out day in / day out on the train.
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On 09/04/2024 at 09:09, Sir TophamHatt said:
So why not give up the design or sell it to Hornby?
Maybe…. because it would require someone in accounts to realise a cost in a marketing budget several years ago, which may or may not have been written off, still has residual value now, and find a buyer for it…
I’m sure they write bigger POs everyday on spend which is seen as consumed almost immediately.
I could imagine looking for a train tooling in their books is a very low priority, then find which business unit owns it, finding someone who actually understands it, cares to respond on something that doesn't impact them or there department etc…
Waste is a normality in large organisations, especially if its soft budget items that are not core assets.
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7 hours ago, BR Blue said:
Unfortunately, I am in the a shame is it not better camp. Having seen samples at shows I was not expecting much. I was hoping for much better. Very disappointing. It just looks wrong from many angles. I believe the shape of the old Bachmann model is better.
I do personally think the shape of the new Bachmann 47 is the best. The old wasnt bad but the cab angles / profile imo is much better.
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19G shed code, had to look that one up… Trafford Park in LMS days.
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On 30/03/2024 at 22:34, dj_crisp said:
Circuit boards are different but I think going from a bso to a tso will be ok.
Theres quite a lot to circuit boards…BSO has CDl lights at one end only… you can see it missing in the top bodyshell, right corner.
Their is a second BSO circuit board (for intercity/blue grey) has no cdl at all.for FO/TSO/RFB theres CDL (at both ends) and a second non CDL versions.
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25 minutes ago, woodenhead said:
Maybe they are renting LSL's stuff that is up there 🤣
Funny thing was a few months ago a fully operation 156 was for-sale by auction…
https://apex-group.com/auction#!/auctionDetails/6436
Put it back in super sprinter livery and let it go!
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46 minutes ago, woodenhead said:
But it would suggest they are using some coaches that are compliant, so a grudging compliance with the ORR whilst still refusing to do anything with their other stock.
interesting, the two compliant rakes they have are Northern Belle, and Maroon set.
The Maroon set is on the Great Britain tomorrow for the next week.
Northern Belle is out a few times next week also.
my plat 5 lists 33 mk2def FO and 6 SO at wcrc. though no indication of condition.the exemption list listed 7 mk2def FOs.. though they look to be now cdl fitted.
maybe a few more have been cdl’d up, or existing exempt coaches brought out of storage and brought back to serviceable status ?So lets see what ecs’s up to Scotland and with which loco… 44871/45407 are off to inverness and back south next week… I guess we wont have to wait long.
46 minutes ago, woodenhead said:And no Harry Potter coach, so despite this not being a Harry Potter train it does contain a Harry Potter coach, I wonder how Warner Bros feel about that?
probably nothing, its the Jacobite, the Black5s arent in Harry Potter either.
its only by personal association.
warners probably been watching how its name is being used in this storyline though.
46 minutes ago, woodenhead said:Edit: 15th April is a key date in the Jacobite rebellion, so a deliberate choice of day by WCRC perhaps.
Thats monday… nothings in the system for an ecs… it will need a steam loco too and thats kind of absent too.lsl missed a chance to shine today, the 156 from Glasgow failed at FTW today, so Mallaigs last option to Glasgow left at 1250.
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8 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:
... or drab green : -
3/9/23
That one looks a bit lost.
But all this moving about only adds to justification of making an Electrostar in 00…. And you know someday they will eek out their last in the North West like everything else does.
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1 hour ago, DY444 said:
Not entirely. Southern does have the red 387/2s operating on the GatEx/Brighton fudge and sometimes elsewhere. Also, and depending on how you define "railway", the erstwhile Central Division sees 700s and 165s.
I’m sorry but 700’s are dull as ditch water..
going to London on a grey morning and seeing a grey unit arrive, rammed end to end is not exciting at all.
tbh the bland blue 701’s doesnt do much for me either…SWR will be duller without its vivid colours.
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1 hour ago, rodent279 said:
Does that mean they mainly use 0 hours contract staff?
1 hour ago, Gilbert said:I had heard elsewhere that this applies to most of their train staff including drivers - not sure of the actual situation.
Carnforth Railway and Restoration engineering services lists 159 staff, in 2022 accounts.In the related party disclosures, it says “they handle all the payroll costs for other group companies”.
it also operates a pension scheme (assets are independent of the company).
I also note this business registered at Helifield station, has overdue accounts in companies house for this year, due December 31st 2023, and a First Gazette notice for compulsory strike-off has been issued.
all this is on companies house.
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45 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:
If they've got a lot of unusable non-compliant rolling stock on the balance sheet, I wonder how accurate their valuations are.
I suspect their auditors won't have much of a clue as to what such assets are really worth. Maybe their other stock is in better nick?
Careful on the assets ownership.
A long time back I looked at this, theres a lot of companies here, I think the rolling stock, locos, steam fleet, engineering company and land are all different companies… even Steamtown as a company still exists, and separate businesses for Northern belle, and WHL ops.
for example this company owns Galatea and FTW turntable according to its accounts…
NORTH OF ENGLAND HISTORIC RAILWAY TRUST LIMITED
Steamtown did c£2.7mn turnover, not bad for a museum that closed to the public 30 years ago… in the charges section it lists a mortgage for 57313/4/5/6 and another for 57601.
Good luck finding who owns what… it all rolls up under 1 name.
WILLIAM SMITH (WAKEFIELD) LIMITED
£25mn turnover last year.
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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:
Incidentally as far as its coaching stock fleet is concerned it is many years since I passed Carnforth but it used to give a very good impression of siding accommodation for withdrawn, deteriorating, coaches with a large number sitting there quietly rusting away. Are they still there and do they count them in their total fleet to be fitted with CDL?
The now withdrawn exemption was a pretty accurate list of the serviceable fleet.
I checked it against several coaches not seen for a while, for example Accurascales mk2bs etc and the mk2es which weren't listed as they have cdl… the mk2bs havent been seen in several years, so may be in the scrap lines.
Reality is WCRC has a humungous amount of stock… way more than 130, perhaps 200..
But a lot of it is rot.. mk1 sleepers, lnw sleeper from steamtown days, RES PCVs used to be at Helifield, abandoned mk2es in Southall.
Some has been stripped for scrap already in recent years.
They also have the exempt mk2e rake which made a reappearance this year extra to that exemption list and which they can still and are using.
Dissecting the now withdrawn exemption, you can pinpoint some oddities, which I suspect would never be viable for cdl, and so are probably never going to return back…1. Queen of Scots consists of an LNW saloon, observation, GNR teak coach etc… these are all generically listed as “mk1’s…”… each would require bespoke conversions, air braking may never be an option etc…
2. Lakeland Pullman, these are the old Manchester Pullman mk2’s with unusual doors, again a bespoke solution. These coaches arent used very often either, so am unsure if they can return.
3. The others are the Metro Cammell mk1 pullmans, again non standard doors / fittings, though a lot has been spent on these… its a dilemma, VT has a couple also, including recently restored “Eagle”, they may not fit a standard cdl, but are too valuable to ignore.
4. two mk3 sleepers.Take that lot out of the 130 your down to.. 94.. truly mk1/mk2 coaches.
of those 946 Catering
12 Brakes (one listed as support)
32 First (29 FO, 3 FK of which 2 are in FTW today now as FO conversions).
42 Second (39 SO, 3 SK).
Then theres 9 passenger vehicles in the Northern Belle set, these include 325, 3247, 3275, 3267, 1953, 3273, 3174 in the now withdrawn exemption list… but at least enough have been cdl fitted to appear on the mainline in 2024.
So brings us to circa 85 coaches… remaining for routine use…
WHL uses 28, 14 (a 6x, 7x, 1 spare) and I understand mid summer are rotated for maintenace, tyre wear etc … so x2.various gen groups do support a July rake swap.
So leaves 57.. enough for 5 rakes, not withstanding the met camm mk1’s often appear in standard rakes.
the figure of 6 catering stands out, as not being very many, a quick look at my Platform 5 lists 15, inc some conversions, so I guess they are in other ways exempt.
which ever way you slice it, they have the largest fleet of mainline registered rolling stock, and then largest fleet of spares stock.
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11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:
WRONG!
Loco drive didn’t appear in ANY of Hornbys models until production was transferred to China in the 2000s!
not strictly true.. the Ivatt 2-6-0 was always loco drive. For some reason they just stopped making it in 1978. My guess is the new 0-6-0 motor mounting was too high for the Ivatt boiler, the tender too low for the ringfield, so ended up a short life span tooling..
B12 was another, this time a hang over from Triang which over lapped the tender drive revolution and move from x04 motors, but it came loco drive in Hornby boxes.
Hornby were making loco drive models of the WC into the 1990’s…
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334520739581
Exeter and
This iirc was made circa same year as the 8f.
The 1980’s Rocket is another, but lets not go there… then theres others like Lord of the Isles, Caley Single etc… which date back to 1961 and still are the same tooling today, just with better profile wheels and motor..these reemerged during Rocket150 (1980) and GW150 (1985), and just recently.
11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:Come 2010ish Some of the 1980s era tender drive products got a chassis makeover to eliminate the tender drive mechanism and appeared in the ‘RailRoad’ range - but I’m not sure if the 8F was one of the models so treated.
8fs never been offered railroad status, though the latest one with the moulded smokebox handles gets close, even if the price does not.
The 28xx is another one where it was never offered in railroad.
my guess here is demand, the WD/9F geographically went much wider than the 8f. I suspect the LNER 0’s are similarly afflicted.
The 9f is the oddity in heavy freight, the 1978 tooling lasted until 2020, starting and ending with Evening star. It had 4 makeovers, first to separate handrails, later to better chassis/rods, other tender options, then got a loco drive makeover…
During this time it flip flopped between railroad and main range.
Then bizarrely, the Crosti 9f appeared as railroad, ignoring all the above apart of the high sided railroad 9f tender… if they’d used one of the Brit superdetailed tenders they could pretty much have gone all the way.. and instead of then using the new railroad chassis on the standard railroad 9f.. they carried on as before until 2020… this left the railroad 9f as an outlier, I think the only entirely new “railroad” tooling.
of course Hornby produced the opus magnum new full fat 9f.
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I thought we werent supposed to name them… ^^^^^
😀
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20 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:
if they are factory/QC rejects, another option would be that Dapol insists all rejected models come to them (after all they have paid for a full batch, which includes an allowance for rejects. It can then use them for spares (the good parts) and/or sells the bodies as seconds (which Dapol has of course done with the incorrect DRS 68 bodies). This would prevent such complete items entering the customer market later.
There are other reasons legit ones didnt make it here..Full pallet, full container, the factory could have over estimated their own failure rate and made too many, any number of honest reasons.
But warehousing costs money, takes space.. 4 years is a long time to hang on..of course it could be a disagreement between the warehouse and the factory that saw them spill out…
Theres hundreds of possible reasons, not all nefarious, but unfortunate.
They will either soak up if theres a few, and dissappear, or there will be a price war if theres hundreds.. that i’m confident…. They arent high demand models, though i reckon the murphys ones will go first.
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Tbh i’m for @maico suggestion.
The thing I find odd is neither the Dapol model or the Murphys one have been made for quite some time.
So for these two appear now, only has two options…
1. recently made
2. are years old from the last batch.
ive struggled with why a factory would knowingly make more (option 1), it would destroy their relationship, not just with Dapol, but any other company that recognises that they made that product.?.Further why would Dapol hold back on naming and shaming the factory…
This isnt the first time this sort of thing has happened, its happened at least a dozen, in different forms in different countries models… though most times the box changes, if there is a box.
So I go back to old stock… but couldnt reconcile pallets of “hundreds” hanging around for years… warehouses cost money.
But the thought of a few dozen assorted rejects sitting in the back of a warehouse finding their way out of the door and to some wholesaler, and then have a dozen or so chancers listing them on ebay looking for a bite and rushing back to the shop to buy and post it some buys it makes a ton of sense.
The proof will be how quick they dissapear… these arent really “hot” demand items and the price isnt cheap… they could hang for a while.. so if theres hundreds a price war will follow. If theres only a few in reality, they will seemingly just dissapear as each one sold takes 10 sellers down at a time.
The saving grace here is the Dapol ones arent the highest demand items..they were recently heavily discounted. Murphys maybe higher demand, but a smaller, maybe already sated market.What this isnt, is the £20-50 unboxed Bachmann factory samples that streamed out on ebay in hundreds from Taiwan 10 years or so back, or the liliput Kreigsloks on kowloon market for c£10 way back 20 years ago. Ali-express lists some nice, but unfortunate double US stacks in HO, as does some European gondolas and some Norwegian box vans.. those really are knock offs, and come unboxed, cheap and oodles of them.
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5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:
These days people tend to forget one of the attractions of containerization was to reduce pilferage across the transport chain.
They obviously had never been to Egypt then, and the staff canal tax.
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14 hours ago, ColinB said:
What are you on about, I was talking about the loco driven option which I gather dates from way after 1980. The 1980 model was tender drive and unless I got the numbering wrong mine is a loco drive model which is what I said. I suspect like with most Hornby models the body is probably derived from the 1980s version probably using the same mould with a few bits cut away which is the same for the Duchess, A4s and A3s and as far as I remember Hornby haven't made a loco driven one on the new chassis with firebox glow but there still is a rather large hole in the cab for it. It even exists on the current model. So perhaps you would like to explain what you are actually on about?
Yes and no…
The original plastic Hornby 8f was 1989, with 48758 one of the first released. Iirc there was 3 different numbers offered in BR and 3 in LMS.
The front was all new, the rear used the Black 5 tender (today we call railroad). It was tender drive, and had firebox flicker.
This continued in production until it went to China when R2055 in 1998 was the last made with the tooling.
In 2002 R2227 (7675 NE) R2228 (8510 in NE) and R2229 (48154) marked the arrival of the new tooling. I do not know how they arrived at the new tooling, but some inheritance has moved across… the dimensions are the same on the body aside of the firebox. Either Hornby got it right first time, or they copied it.
The pony truck is the same, as is the pony wheel, If you look through Hornby L numbers you can see some carry overs. The loco body is new though, little things give it away.. the sandbox covers handles changed to horizontal from vertical, the pipe to the top feed has the outer wrapper, and the big lump under the smokebox for the screw has gone… obviously the new tooling picked up new separate details like lamp irons, sprung buffers, cabside windshields etc. other things that give away the new body was a decent back head, footplate fittings, roof vents, doors and fall plate… the old one had nothing inside, apart a backhead rendition.
The big mod was the chassis being all new, loco drive, requiring a hole under the firebox / rear boiler to fit it. It is possible to mod an old railroad 8f to the new chassis.The stanier tender is new.
As @phil-b259 it was upgraded in 2017 to change the pickups from the sprung plunger to a jst (R3564) at the same time the 8 pin DCC was moved from chassis to tender, to support sound. other mods were made with 48045 in 2017 when the airfix tender was released.
The last version made without JST was R3083 (Limited Edition of TCDD 45161) for Proses in Turkey in 2012.
The 8f though is really quite old. How accurate it is i’ll leave to others but certainly it lacks detail under the boiler, the pony truck is awful and cast wheels today are much better than Hornbys pressed rims.
If your buying an R2227 onwards though, your essentially buying the same thing, with some electrical mods along the way. As far as price goes 48151 was new for £90 in 2013.. so inflations been kind to it.
What I do note is volume, the 8f hasnt been big in Hornbys range over 22 years, theyve made 19.. inc odd balls like TCDD, NE, a Fowler tender, a weird orange weathered one and 3 different LMS IDs at once (R2394 + A, B) as well as preserved 48773 and 48151, and recently scrapped 48518… They missed 8624/48624 in maroon, LMR Blue and missed wartime WD and overseas options [Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Iran, Iraq and 90’s TCDD], which is an omission considering how well Bachmann did the WD making 3x Dutch NS, KCR -Hong Kong, Desert sand, WD and LMR editions… they made 28.. many just plain black BR WDs.
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1 hour ago, Northmoor said:
My (perhaps selfish) concern is that if/when WCRC's luck runs out and there is a fatality on a steam railtour, the knee-jerk reaction will be to ban all heritage stock from the main line. You can be certain that if the Bullied Pacific had been running a minute earlier at Wootton Bassett, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now because there would be no main line steam to discuss.
34067 is indeed a worry some machine, especially around the letter W…Weymouth.. hit the buffers, Winchfield .. dropped a conrod, Wootton Bassett .. nearly crashed.
But it also had a reputation on Martin Mill, Upton Scudamore, Filton bank, Upwey, Hemerdon, Dover.. the list just kept going and going… its sat down on every hill in the south.
I’m not convinced that unrebuilts should be on the mainline… i did a trip with it many years ago and half my video was it slipping… back in the 1980’s 34092 wasnt much better, even with its Giesel it wasnt the strongest. If 34023 ever cones back i’d be interested to see how it climbs Imberhorne.
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4 minutes ago, maico said:
This sounds like arbitrage. People list hundreds of items on Ebay based on being able to obtain stock from sites like Amazon. They add a small percentage mark-up. They only purchase the stock if they have a confirmed sale. There is software available to do this. I bet there is only one unauthorized source of Dapol O gauge in China.
That could explain it, as the sellers have thousands of random items for sale that certainly dont come across as a model specialist in anyway.
That could be misguiding the appearance of hundreds of each to actually maybe being no more than a couple…
this could change the thought process quite a bit.. they may just be some left overs at the factory office.
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14 minutes ago, maico said:
You sure about that?
I turned on my proxy and went to eBay.pl and the O-gauge Dapol was the same tank loco range as shown on Ebay uk. In other words, the Chinese vendor has just ticked the global shipping option. He has not made any decisions about people fighting in the streets in Gdańsk for British outline O!
I’m not going to list the vendors, but theres many more…. Same loco range but a lot more sellers… some are luky’er than others, try shipping to Poland, not the Uk, as they arent shipping here… ive counted 10 different sellers just now.
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14 minutes ago, Simond said:
Kevin,I do not know.
As I originally explained, my supposition is that the so-called “fake” products are made on the same production lines from exactly the same materials, in the same moulds, with the same paint and transfers, probably by the same staff, and are packed in the same boxes as “genuine” ones. They are exactly & precisely the same. They are not really “fake”.
The difference is they have been sold through a different & unauthorised route, (the “back door” if you will) meaning that a) they compete with, and impact sales of legitimate product, and b) Dapol and its authorised resellers make no margin on these sales, both of which impact Dapol’s recovery of their investments, and profitability, which none of us want, I expect.
On this basis, as has been noted, and as I noted in my original post, the only way that they can be differentiated from those sold by an authorised sales outlet, is by the sales receipt, and only then if it is itemised.
I doubt that Dapol would want to give a great deal of information, it wouldn’t help them.
atb
Simon
right now the thing keeping them out of the country is price.
It also looks like several sellers are not listing them in the UK or for UK shipping, as theres loads more on intl sites.
But if they cut the price below the vat import threshold, I suspect many more may find their way in.
what concerns me is laundering… if a faulty one comes in a buyer could buy from a reputable store, then return the other…
which circles me back to my point of having a serial number on the chassis, and on the box, added at the distributor in the Uk before going to the trade…. Its going to be very hard to undo a screw covered by a warranty seal, and keep the seal intact, and hence the warranty intact. QR code scanning them out of the door also records which retailer got which, and thus the added security of not seeing a return coming from a different retailer, potentially via a s/h route marked as a faulty new return.
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11 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:
Thanks. I've just looked it up. It's painted green. Doesn't anyone have a red engine?
Pub quiz question for the non-railfan. Which of these is the Harry Potter engine?
a.
b.
c.
d.
a rare photo of the top one there… 5972 in green.
nunney castle is an lsl engine, and its a castle…. (Most people would never question it as a sister of Hogwarts Castle).its also got most of the right numbers, just in the wrong order.. 5029 vs 5972.
personally i’d love to see it in red with Stanier fittings….whether it would be allowed on the WHL is something else.
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28 minutes ago, SHMD said:
I've found that not all things are available online forever.
Can you still get a "Hattons" receipt online?
Kev.
I downloaded my full history of Hattons reciepts at Christmas after I had a prophecy one night in November.
I subsequently did it for all my online model railway accounts.
whilst its impossible to go back to 1970’s for receipts, having the better part of most of my receipts back 25+ years puts the balance in my favour should I be requested for proof. I’d reccomend doing it.. cloud storage costs nowt on your iphone.
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WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.
in UK Prototype Discussions (not questions!)
Posted · Edited by adb968008
The one I see is the buffet…
if its not got anyone assigned seating, but yet passengers can stil enter to buy stuff, and presumably sit in its limited seats… can they lock all doors out of use ?
this is the coach in question, and I know first hand that an rmb has six doors that passengers can use..
The centre door is a small corridor between the buffet and store room.. the end two are regular doors…
and all 3 on this side are regular doors.
to me this is a regular coach, and althoug wcrc take centre doors out on their tso/fo i’m not sure thats the case on an rmb.
its not got any exterior cdl lights on what went north today.
Today…
all urls not mine…
it was also the only one on the revoked exemption list..