adb968008

April 9

11 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

All the seats in RAF passenger aircraft face rearwards for safety (as per adb's experience) but the passengers are not paying for the ride and have to do as they are told without question. Flying backwards is not conducive to relaxing.

Southwest airlines 737s used to do this on row 1.

its quite a different take off experience, plus playing footsie with those in row 2 facing you.

On a separate note but MDs also give throwing forward sensation on landing, as the reverse thrust is on the engines mounted at the rear of the fuselage… Tupolevs would also give you a bit of a thrill…

April 9

7 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

TBF I don't recall seeing many shots of her Maj window hanging or Charlie bellowing out of the window because there is some good clag.

He didnt need to… he goes right up front for the action, and has an altogether different set of regulators red penned in his book.

April 9

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

I think there would be great challenges with seatbelts on trains:

no enforcement. Getting a ticket check is random enough without the same staff member having to convince up to 1000 passengers to continually wear a seat belt. zero enforcement on DOO.

seatbelt enforcement doesnt need to be mandatory.

it isnt on airlines, except during take off and landing (and predicted turbulance).

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

our trains are not compulsory seating so there will always be standing passengers

but does that excuse / negate need to make seated passengers safer ?

Using cdl as an example, it only keeps those opening a door safer, those seated in the saloon it adds no value either.

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

the joy of trains is the ability to move around: buffet / shops, toilets, general

leg stretch.

No chance of early warning of an incident like on a plane with the fasten seatbelt signs (plane radar often predicts turbulence)

Turbulance is most often unexpected.

For that reason airlines always reccomend having it loosely fastened….

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

our suburban trains with 3+2 seats are so cramped in peak rush hour that adding seatbelts wound serious discourage travel and probably not be feasible with the current seat structure

suburban trains dont always go 100mph … the need on a slow train is low… but longer distance intercity….. does.

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

are our rolling stock structures (floor pans etc) strong enough to hold the weight of the seat plus fully occupied passenger weights (currently only has to restrain the seat structure)

but passengers will involuntarily move… I know because I did.

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

there is still going to be loose and therefore airborne luggage as no plane style lockers and often no seat or space under seat for bags.

TPWS and ETCS should (and are intended) to reduce the risk of head on collisions. Heavy deceleration due to other incidents (LUMO at Peterborough, the 195s at Grange) resulted in walking wounded but no fatalities AFAIK.

walking wounded, whom with an airline style lap belt may not have been wounded.

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

Trains

"It has been shown that there is no net safety benefit for passengers who choose to wear 3-point restraints on passenger-carrying rail vehicles. Generally, passengers who choose not to wear restraints in a vehicle modified to accept 3-point restraints receive marginally more severe injuries."[127]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt#cite_note-127

Airlines use a lap belt.

A car style seatbelt would imo get a lot of resistance from use and i’m not sure the benefit… most train passengers, like airline and coach passengers have the rear of an airline seat to face.. car passengers have a front window and nothing stable to grab.

All i’m saying is my own experience…. I know an airline lap belt would have stopped me going flying across a coach, and it needed it. Had the train derailed.. I wouldnt be here going against the establishment grain that I am 100% confident on. Chances are my body would have taken another passenger out with me, as i’ve not got my own wings and Ive learned I fly like a piano.

it sounds like it maybe worth a revisit if the last study was based on Ford seat belts from the 1990’s… The world has moved on a bit, even long distance coaches in the 1990’s didnt have seatbelts back then, and have since adopted it.

April 9

3 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

Seat belts are useful in situations where the passengers can be subject to very high jerk rates and decelerations, such as motor cars colliding, or planes entering extreme turbulence.

These situations tend not to happen in railway crashes. I knew someone who was in the Clapham accident, fortunately at the rear of the train that crashed into the stationary train. He was unaware that they had been involved in a devastating crash that took the lives of many.

I am unaware of any railway that has thought it necessary to provide seat belts as a safety control measure.

Apologies I had to step away mid edit..

As someone involved in a fatal crash, back in 2008 in Europe, I was lifted from my seat (125kg of me) into the person in front, and it was no voluntary force, it took me, followed by luggage above. i also saw several limb and stomach/knee (stomach/knee to table interaction) injuries. I am surprised there is no conclusion on seatbelts not being of any benefit. This one was a simple emergency stop from c90mph… the standing simply flew down the aisles and landed on a heap.

Those back facing to direction, seemed to feel nothing, apart from sudden intimacy from people like me joining them for a hug.

Modern trains have much stronger braking ability than those of the 1990’s…

I would be interested to read this research, if you have any pointers.

I do personally feel an airline style lap belt would be safer…, especially on high acceleration/deceleration and high speed services… seatbelts on planes are really useful in turbulence, which isnt a too far dissimilar feeling to an emergency stop at high speed… the feeling of your bum defying gravity meeting resistance from your torso, before becoming a human spring.

April 9

30 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

No, they were led by my erstwhile bridge partner, Sandy Scholes. A tremendously accomplished individual who was in charge of BR Research's vehicle structures department. He also represented BR/UK on the European committees responsible for developing crashworthiness standards: external and internal. He had a better understanding than anyone else of how to reduce risk to passengers in an accident.

Thank you a very informative reply.

April 9

4 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

None is needed for it, as I posted earlier, not unless their majesties pay for their tickets:

I thought in relation to wcrc example a page back, non paying passengers can only be staff ?

Do the royals double up to act as train guards ?

The royal train carries a considerable amount of servants are these not royal household staff, rather than railway staff too ?

April 9

35 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

But planes cars and long distance coaches don’t have standing passengers - everyone who has a ticket has a seat!

For seat belts to be made effective - and for the railways to stand half a chance of them being used then it would require standing passengers to be banned - something which commuters (who are voters) and politicians wouldn’t tolerate.

BR did some research into seatbelts towards the end of its existence and concluded that money would be better invested in stopping trains crashing in the first place through signaling improvements and things like the replacement of slam door stock.

Were those researchers from the accountancy team by any chance ?

I’m sorry the argument that everyone can assume the risk of death in a crash because it reduces revenue and increases inconvenience flies in the face of everything we are told the ORR is supposed to be for..

I dont see why seat belts couldn't be fitted and optional for use ?.. seatbelts arent revolutionary, and are not expensive… LNER are certainly moving towards an airline style all seated railway, maybe it time they upped safety too.

Whilst accepting the partisan nature of this thread, those showing support for posts reducing safety, is exactly what it is…a show support for reducing safety on a thread debating challenging of safety by another operator… which I find hypocritical.. surely safety is safety, not selective safety to those in vogue vs those who arent.

April 9

29 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

In this report WCRC is quoted as saying that the timing of the resumption of the Jacobite services is 'entirely out of our control'.

Actually not: if WCRC bothered to make their stock compliant with the regulations, they could start to run again. The timing of the fitment is entirely under WCRC control.

However, if your business plan is to evade the regulations for as long as possible, then I agree.

How long did the Jacobite 100 page contract take to negotiate ?

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-11/consolidated-agreement-wcr-jacobite.pdf

Looking inside the current one, It took from Feb to May 2020 just to approve what must have been a final version that started June 2020, that expires October 2024.

A look at date references inside refers heavily to late 2018 / early 2019 dates, which may just be coincidence but may frame time periods it was put together, certainly very few 2020 references, beyond validity.

Nothing moves fast in any government, railways in the UK are even worse. Even if this one was rolled over as a renewal, I cant imagine it taking less than 6 -12 months+ on top… so the wcrc Jacobite rebellion may have already been lost months ago, if not 12 months ago for all we know… we maybe just watching the shouting that follows.

The current contract specifically mentions mk1 and mk2’s.. it maybe no coincidence we are seeing LSL with mk3’s this week.

April 9

33 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Copied from elsewhere

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/ne ... 4651388736

it definitely feels like the battle for hearts and minds has begun.

Never trust a journalist, they are your friend whilst the feed is good, once the feed stops, they turn against it and rip them apart to get a second helping of feed.

This time next year business owners may be moaning the 3 day a week one daily premium jacobite costs too much and has driven away their customers to a greedy new operator that doesn't run as many trains.

April 9

8 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

I remember having a discussion with a LT Engineer about crashworthiness.

I suggest that the issue now isnt the ability of the stock to withstand a crash, its the ability of the passengers to survive the impact.

I would imagine that in the case of the nuclear flask test (Think Hixton) the crashworthiness of the MK1 stock would be irrelevant

I know were drifting ot on this but, Would seatbelt's help ?

I have wondered by seatbelts havent been a thing on trains before…

planes, cars, long distance coaches all have them.

April 9

38 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

I have found that sometimes the fine electronics in models can make the customs guys go "that is not a model, that is some super secret military hardware..." (or something).

I found Australia the worst, many years ago a mate sent a Hornby Great Gathering Bittern to Oz…

Their customs opened the body to see what was inside using a screwdriver as a wedge to force it open and badly damaged the body and the chassis valve gear

After finding nothing, they dropped the bits loose into the box and sent it on.

The buyers picture was basically a cardboard box of bits and a ripped plastic body…. Nearly £300 notes wasted, and the seller lost their money to an ebay refund.

It convinced me never to sell anything down under.

April 9

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

Fairly sure i never saw Her Maj open her own door.

Her/His train doesnt have cdl either, nor do I see any exemptions for it.

April 8

On Claytons facebook page is some pictures at Scunthorpe, including pulling a not to shabby decent length train of wagons.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=928216422638561

theres a picture of them side by side too to a Norwegian Di8

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=928216445971892

April 8

11 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

That's one door lock, not a central door locking system, with interlocks and emergency overrides.

I take it youve never been to an Airport, Office, Data Centre, School … Its is no different to cdl… it all leads back to a security office with centralised and individual lock/unlock, comms, alarms, card swipes, emergency break glass etc

This isnt new revolutionary tech… cdl on a mk1 is nothing more than a modern office building on wheels… indeed you dont need half of what a modern building has either.

it doesnt cost £30k to secure the doors in a shared office… unless your paying for 24/7 security as well.

wcrc mk1’s only use 4 doors.

Rather than Travis Perkins, maybe WCRC should upgrade to Wickes ?, the catalogs got more in it.

April 8

1 hour ago, jollysmart said:

The first known subway system to install onboard Wi-Fi was the Seoul Metro in 2009.

i was using my phone on 3g at a minimum or modem wifi using 802.11g underground later on all the ones listed 24 years+ ago to surf the net…

the tech worked…ok it was low tech compared to today, often alt. Pages, mms etc, but it worked underground…

I installed it on some of them so I should know… the HKG metro DC used the former BT phone exchange at Sha Tin station in Kowloon… it still had the the dotted “T” logo embossed into the concrete, bad practice stone floors..

2g worked underground in 1992 for text and phone in Hong Kong’s metro, exited to the same building, some of it bakerlite equipment being ripped out went to the Hong Kong museum. Some of the very first Cisco 6509s were installed here in 2000.. later the backbone of the internet for the next decade worldwide. D

Seoul might be the first wifi, as the iphone generation know it, but wireless data existed for many years before, even if loading a text web page crashed if an incoming call came.

April 8

2 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

We don't like spending money on what we would call frills!

Neither do airlines, which is why they sell it.

but then here the passengers are too tight to pay for it too.

April 8

On 07/04/2024 at 14:01, melmerby said:

The Tube network is currently having Wi-Fi installed, so I don't imagine HS2 will be without.

Belgium, Singapore, Hong Kong, Washington all had this nearly 3 decades ago.

Its strange to see why the UK likes to be so backwards and resistant to accept modern technology.

I remember 20 years ago the TV screen advertising that was flashing past outside the carriage windows in the tunnels of Hex and thinking the UK had finally come up with something cool in modern media… but it lasted what 6 months ?

Inside tunnel advertising using screens seemed quite a cool idea (and captive audience) to me.

April 8

15 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Could the standard MK1 dynamo be replaced by a 24v alternator & rectifier, used to feed a battery, with enough charge to keep doors locked for say 3-4 hours?

Will need to be 24 hours minimum, and in winter…

some railtours can be very long endeavours, especially when something breaks.

April 8

6 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I don' see them getting some bloke in Fort William do the job on the cheap in the sidings up there.

It's just a stock move - doesn't really imply they will be using it in service without modification.

If WCRC management really think they are about to win the argument it would make sense.

Perhaps they do believe the politicians will pull rank on the regulators with an election in the offing?

Or perhaps its a PR stunt, and driver training / refresher work.

They might have the coaches there but they are missing the headline act… the steam locos.

I did note in the consist two FKs… but they now seem to be FO conversions…which makes not fitting cdl during there refurbishment even more bizarre.

April 8

5 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

I expect the hardware costs of a CDL installation will be quite small. Preparing the paperwork, getting the approvals and staff training will add a lot.

If you don't want to do something, inflating the costs is a good way of stopping it.

Agreed, but wcrc has over 100 coaches, portioning the paperwork etc could divide the fixed costs quite considerably.

That would be an advantage to wcrc over everyone else with a dozen coaches.

thing if it is its really a fraction of what wcrc are quoting, it begs the question why fight it, its cheaper just to do it….

But equally why has so few others bothered to do it either, they might have exemptions and made promises to the ORR, but theyve still had 20 years to do it but keep pushing it out.

April 8

How are the £30k costs of cdl per coach calculated ?

This outdoor gate has had a magnetic doorlock on it for over a decade that I know of..

https://www.securitysafetyproducts.co.uk/security/security-access-control/extra-strong-weatherproof-maglock-for-gates-and-external-doors.php

Quote

Designed for use on large iron and wooden gates, as well as other external doors, this genuinely impressive maglock boasts a holding force of 1200lbs. It is for this reason we rate this as our single most secure external maglock.

It also has achieved an IP67 rating, meaning it is designed to withstand all the elements that the British weather can throw at it.

I know the rail industry is full of bloat, ego and waste, but is this a case of the industry exploiting itself, or can it look outside itself for solutions like this, which cost £71 inc vat per door, so £210 per carriage… plus a few LEDs, a power source, emergency break glass and a wire to the brake coach ?

I reckon finding suitable industrial use equipment for this shopping list could be sourced for a fraction of the numbers suggested.

I know already its more complicated than that, and someone has to have their authority and you can only use suppliers who are mates of mates…. But even then it seems the real world has solutions the rail bubble doesnt… question is why cannot they be used ?

Whats the other £29,500 ?

April 8

35 minutes ago, mevaman1 said:

Anyone know of source of Bachmann 47 nose footsteps? I have 2 missing on a recent eBay purchase. They don’t appear on the Bachmann spares site.

Any help much appreciated.

Andrew

These are the biggest weakness in Bachmanns 47, easily lost.

They used to be listed.

Probably best to call direct.

April 8

4 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

An unfathomable amount of equipment dating back to the 1950s is still in use and needs spare parts. In the 90s the factories discovered they could also sell valves to hobbyists in the West who, by most reports, consider them to be very high quality.

Cheap, disposable, available in vast quantities, doesn't need high tech to perform, works in wide variety of poor conditions, easy to fix in poor conditions, standardised.

April 7

5 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

SSSSHHHHHHHHH ! - there might be some Russkies tapping-in to RMweb !

Theyve got one of there own…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UVB-76

its live here

April 7

20 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Have you looked at the cost of the Heljan alternative? When comparing as close as you can like-for-like, Bachmann are charging less aren’t they? Heljan sound £389.95 v Bachmann Sound £339.95 or SFX £384.95 (all rrp).

Roy

Wow….

Yipes.

i’m glad I stick with DC.

ive only got 1, paid £200 for it, dc ready. Felt like it as a “new release” premium.

its certainly not competing on better price or higher quality, and arrived a long way behind the Bachmann one. So its missed all 3 of the typical measures of success.

Profiles

Forums

Blogs

Gallery

Events

Exhibition Layout Details

Store

Posts posted by adb968008