coline33
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Posts posted by coline33
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Alas sold out. If required use link and add to wish-list.
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Illustrated comparisons between the PLA's Millwall Circle and my first design!!! When my dining room table is fully extended then I can insert that extra siding section on the other side of the circle to serve the ship berths. I had wanted to put the storage sidings fan in the middle of the circle but it would have been at the expense of having Millwall shed where a spare road awaits delivery of PLA56 to be alongside PLA74, 200 and 201.
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14 hours ago, Dave John said:
The Caledonian treated the digram number as an operational designation, so a variety of different build types could be allocated to the same diagram, 1316 in total to D 67. Build dates vary between 1903 and 1918.
I think A64 as photographed above is from order G 280, built 1909, Morton brakes both sides.
A lot more info in "Caledonian Railway Wagons" by Mike Williams.
Many thanks for this. Looking at the timber conditions of A64, the side looks original but the end seems relatively new. This leads me to suspect that Harland & Wolff at Royal Docks have done a rebuild of the ends at some time which has warranted the van to survive into the final PLA numbering series.
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48 minutes ago, Dave John said:
The CR and the PLA vans have wooden underframes.
The brake gear of 2080 shown above has been modified since it is a later vac fitted version.
There is one at the srps, with morton cam rather than the original either side brakes.
http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10048.htm
http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10047.htm
Thank you both vdery much for the observations. Then definitely those axleboxes point to its CR origins. The planking, etc. of the sides of 2080 reflect those of A64. I can only assume that somewhere in its history A64 had its ends completely rebuilt. From its condition in the PLA photo I can only think that A64 was a renumber from the PLA's original van numbering series. It looks too old for the PLA to have bought it after WW2 or maybe it had no choice!!! So I have changed the "ex-LSWR" to "ex-CR/LMS" in my listing. Was the diagram D67 that of CR and did the LMS change it, please? I do not suppose the D67 has sufficient appeal for a RTR product suggestion in CR/LMS/BR/PLA liveries - unless someone can prove otherwise?
On the subject of covered vans, I would love to know just how many ex-BR Palvans, beyond the three that the Bluebell purchased, there were? I have a note that there was a grounded PLA Palvan body alongside the Queen Elizabeth reservoir at West Molesey but cannot find anything further about it. I am looking to make a case for a product suggestion for a RTR Palvan in BR and PLA formats.
What I am looking for is a prototype PLA wagon that is a 'dead-ringer' for any 4mm RTR model open wagon produced - has anyone any ideas, please?
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16 minutes ago, Dave John said:
Agreed , it is a Caledonian D 67 van.
51 L do a wm kit. I have a couple, straightforward build.
Although the axleboxes appear to be the same, the brake is very different. Do we have the CR van photographed in LMS or BR condition, please?
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17 minutes ago, mclong said:
PLA A64 is an ex Caledonian van, but very similar to LSWR vans. The sliding door is narrower and door fittings are different.
PLA records stated A64 to be ex-LSWR. It is a high version without shielded end vents. The LSWR photo looks as though it is a low version.
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15 hours ago, coline33 said:
Yes, but I will be going after EFE to see if a RTR of it can be add to their range from the original tooling. I have this afternoon sent a suggestion to Bachmann for a RTR PLA Austerity to be added to the range for a steamer to go with the Janus diesel for Royals and Tilbury Docks.
I had a reply from Bachmann accepting the PLA Austerity suggestion to go forward in their next product review, I was going to reply with the suggestion of PLA A64 from the original LSWR van tooling. However, the original tooling is for the lower height van and the new tooling is for the higher one. Alas the higher one has vent shields on its ends - oh, you can't win!!! But I will submit and ask if the shield is an add-on so easily removed.
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41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:
Tall body, narrow planking - closer to the Cambrian kit?
Yes, but I will be going after EFE to see if a RTR of it can be add to their range from the original tooling. I have this afternoon sent a suggestion to Bachmann for a RTR PLA Austerity to be added to the range for a steamer to go with the Janus diesel for Royals and Tilbury Docks.
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Although not 100% correct, EFE Rail 87052 would be a good start to alter and repaint this LSWR covered van as PLA A64. Kernow MRC have plenty in stock. Beware this 87052 is the best tooling for the PLA van. EFE have produced new tooling for this series but it would be more work to alter!!!
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I have submitted Rapido's Product Suggestion form in respect of open wagon 619/C127. Interesting to see how they respond. Next is to see if Bachmann are interested to do A64 an ex-LSWR covered van based on their existing LSWR/SR/BR model.
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Oh dear, I missed out A64 ex-LSWR, A66 ex-GWR V18 and A73 ex-GWR V16. C55 was ex-LNWR not LSWR! Sorry.
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Now to add some more data to my previous post. I am not aware of any PLA rolling stock being bogie or 6 wheel. Open wagons 127-9 were described as Tube wagons while 1283 was delivered from Hurst Nelson in 1914 being a 3-plank dropside open in white for the engineering Dept. Please ignore references to 1390 and 3124. Those numbered in the 3000s were flat wagons. 3038 was a standard height flat but 3147. 3217/8 and 3392 were low height.
With the final number series in diesel days came prefixed number. 'A' was for covered vans - 45/52/79 ex-BR Palvans; 'B' was for brake vans; 'C' for open wagons - 55 was ex-LSWR and 127 ex-GWR O18 and 'D' was departmental i.e included breakdown vans such as 07.
If anyone has more info to add please do so.
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On 09/10/2021 at 11:17, justin said:
The book PLA Railways published in 1952 doesn't unfortunately mention livery but gives the internal wagon fleet totals as:
310 open wagons
38 box vans,
120 flat wagons (it doesn't specify if these are four wheel or bogie)
77 insulated vans
2 glass wagons
1 weed killer wagon
1 break down van
3 brake vans. The book states that the brake vans were kept for use on the high level line at the Royal Victoria Dock
I corresponded in the 1970s with the author just before he passed way. These were what he found just before final drafting. He kindly presented me with a signed copy which went into the PLA Library - whether it is still there and whether the PLA Library still exists in the present set-up or is with the Museum of London, I do not know. My known rolling stock numbers shows open wagons from 126 to 995 with two oddities at 1283 and 1390; brake vans 1001-1005; breakdown vans 1007 and 1166; insulated vans from 1144 to 1544 and ordinary vans from 2043 to 2576. Now those 120 flat wagons were four wheelers for timber carriage and storage in I&M and the highest know number was 3124. They were ex-Millwall DC and low floored hence the I&M locos could be found with two separate height buffers! Hope that helps.
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On 10/09/2023 at 12:14, coline33 said:
Thanks you all for your replies - it is heartening. Your comments on wagon brakes is spot-on, My PLA Railway Department colleagues left the registration and maintenance entirely in the hands of Harland&Wolff so when in the 1970's I was calling on all dock sections to send all surviving records to me to archive, I had nothing but to make up my own list basically from photos! I even then suspected that the Loco Register had been taken abroad by a retiree!
With Dapol PLA56 due for release this year to join Hornby PLA74 both spent their lives in I&M there are no RTR steamers for Royals or Tilbury Docks. When it comes to wagons we have the sorry tale of Oxford and their 3 pack 7-plank wagons for which there was no prototype. Oxford were told at the time through Golden Valley that they should have used their 5-plank wagon. So there are no genuine RTR PLA opens. Thank God that Rapido are releasing next year covered van PLA A73 (ex-GWR V16 95979). Although this van was renumbered in the PLA second numbering series it does not matter as both series operated at the same time in the final years. Personally I am no longer interested in repainting RTR or kit bashing, so I am looking to get further RTR PLA models as follows:-
1. The diesel era at I&M could do with a Yorkshire engined one as preserved.
2. The Golden Valley "Janus" is in the second PLA decoration livery received on transfer from Tilbury to Royals. It needs an Austerity 0-6-0ST to go with it. Which manufacturer has produced the best version to be approached?
3. A least one correct PLA open wagon is needed. The South Devon Railway's GWR O18 open 97398 had been PLA619 then C127 so lends itself to being measured up!
Any approach needs back-up and please let me know whether you would like me to start a forum purely on "PLA Railways" for interest to be registered?
A bit of an update! I had a devil of a job tracking down a stockist who still advertised the Rapido PLA van A73. So I pre-ordered two allowing me to change the number easily to A78 although I have no record of what type of van it was! Sorry only one left so I took it. In checking the van list I found A66 ex-GWR V18 as W104700 on the Severn Valley. So corresponded with Rapido who confirm that the last pre-order they had for the PLa van had just been taken! The only difference that I know between V14/16 and V18 is that latter has the same body but the chassis comes with or without vacuum brakes. With all A73 now out-of-stock and the similarity of van types could not a second run be included but as A66. The response was that the V18 is in mind so could include A66 but it was felt that to add to the present plan would overdo the market at this moment. However, Rapido is interested should there be other wagons, etc., in mind. So I will follow up with open wagon 619/C127 on their wish-list!
Regarding the I&M Yorkshire Engine diesel, I see that the Gaugemaster Collection is taking pre-orders for a 2024 release of a blue BR 02 class and a green version as an industrial, priced at £169 each. The price is off-putting my suggesting to them of the need for a PLA blue version, what do you think I should do, please?
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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:
Ah, so I now have you down as a person who may reasonably be supposed to have seen a Midland D299 still working for its living!
In fact I could have joined Alan Cross as the Senior Railway Traffic Officer at I&M as within months of my joining PLA I was head hunted for his Railway Officer ClassII vacancy there! The thought of exceptionally early mornings and using public transport from Thornton Heath to Millwall Dock put me off!!! As it turned out it was the right decision as I had a very rounded career with them as I was very much a 'port' man and not allied to the 'dock' or 'river' divisions. Chris Blamey MBE was a very close PLA colleague who came from BR(SR) to be the Railway Department's staff clerk, helping me after the demise of that department to find surviving records. Dick Downey of the Tilbury Engineer's office too was at great ferret in getting the little that the Upper Docks engineers had - hence my view that Harland & Wolff and Mowlems recorded more about the railway system itself than the PLA!. The PLA Librarian lent me the Board Minutes as the then only records left from before WW2. These gave the quantity of wagons/van ordered new or bought secondhand but not the fleet numbers! As a break from London's trams I will endeavour to search again to allocate the origins to the van/wagon photos I have.
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Yes, Steve, those knowledgeable about PLA railways, and they are not all down south, avoided buying the 7-plankers! Interesting you mentioned the Southern Region as their only connection with PLA was a single hardly used siding into Surrey Commercial Docks. When I worked there in the 1950s it was never used. Colin.
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Has anyone seen photos of open wagons 139, 357, 484 and covered vans 1151, 1285. A40. A75, please?
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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:
@coline33 I would be interested if you have any further information on the ex-Midland wagons - even if only numbering. Or has this been published? The one in the photo I linked to is 403, which implies the PLA had some wagons already, before the 180 it bought in 1920, while in the background is 793, also five-plank but of later build, I should think - it looks loner had has diagonal straps to the bodywork.
Many thanks. The photo of 793 was taken at Millwall on 1.12.1961but all I can say is it has the hallmark of a later RCH/ mainline design. With the PLA coming into effect from the start of 1909, it was not until 1912 that the centralised Railway Department (with its Superintendent) was formed at Royals. First need was locomotives and decades ago I wrote an article about the first order going to a German firm in 1913. Orders were also placed with British firms for wagons/vans and certainly some of the latter arrived from Hurst Nelson in 1915! The Great War stopped further orders and by 1919 a complete revised review was undertaken hence you see the orders for those 180 going out in the following year.
It seems decades since I last investigated the wagons, so what comes before me today? Covered van A66 (now GWR V18 104700) also on the South Devon Railway with A73! Therefore another van for some manufacturer to measure!
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Thanks you all for your replies - it is heartening. Your comments on wagon brakes is spot-on, My PLA Railway Department colleagues left the registration and maintenance entirely in the hands of Harland&Wolff so when in the 1970's I was calling on all dock sections to send all surviving records to me to archive, I had nothing but to make up my own list basically from photos! I even then suspected that the Loco Register had been taken abroad by a retiree!
With Dapol PLA56 due for release this year to join Hornby PLA74 both spent their lives in I&M there are no RTR steamers for Royals or Tilbury Docks. When it comes to wagons we have the sorry tale of Oxford and their 3 pack 7-plank wagons for which there was no prototype. Oxford were told at the time through Golden Valley that they should have used their 5-plank wagon. So there are no genuine RTR PLA opens. Thank God that Rapido are releasing next year covered van PLA A73 (ex-GWR V16 95979). Although this van was renumbered in the PLA second numbering series it does not matter as both series operated at the same time in the final years. Personally I am no longer interested in repainting RTR or kit bashing, so I am looking to get further RTR PLA models as follows:-
1. The diesel era at I&M could do with a Yorkshire engined one as preserved.
2. The Golden Valley "Janus" is in the second PLA decoration livery received on transfer from Tilbury to Royals. It needs an Austerity 0-6-0ST to go with it. Which manufacturer has produced the best version to be approached?
3. A least one correct PLA open wagon is needed. The South Devon Railway's GWR O18 open 97398 had been PLA619 then C127 so lends itself to being measured up!
Any approach needs back-up and please let me know whether you would like me to start a forum purely on "PLA Railways" for interest to be registered?
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Thanks, Gordon. If anyone wants to have more detail on PLA brakes, vans and wagons for modelling then please let me know. With the forthcoming release of PLA loco 56 used at Millwall Docks, I still have my 1982 "Model Trains" article "The Millwall Circle" to help with its background. Colin.
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If any one is interested in modelling PLA railways, then in the last issue of Model Trains February/March 1982 edited by Chris before handing over to Fred Game, there is my article "The Millwall Circle". I do have the article still and if of interest please let me know. Colin..
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Is anyone still modelling PLA railways?
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Is anyone still following this topic, please?
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On 09/08/2023 at 16:18, Rammstein2609 said:
Hi All
Further to my findings above regarding the couplings, I have been looking at what's available to allow me to easily couple/uncouple on a small shunting style layout and remembered I had a batch of Dapol N gauge magnetic couplers (similar to Kadees) which I pulled out to look at fitting to the RNAD wagons. To my surprise, these have the N gauge style NEM coupler pocket so the Dapol couplings were a direct replacement for the OO9 couplings. The couple well, reduce the gap between wagons slightly, go round tight bends and the height different between the box and flat wagons is minimal now. I can only assume the OO9 couplings are a little heavier causing the drawbar to droop on its mounting.
Hopefully this is useful to someone.
Thanks
Martin
Yes, Martin, several modellers have raised this problem and your discovery may well prove to be the answer. Thank you, Colin.
Port of London Authority (PLA) Brake Van Liveries
in UK Prototype Questions
Posted
Accurascale will be releasing a model of a 'Buckjumper' J68 in BR livery as 68646 and is available to preorder. PLA did hire-in Stratford engines in the 1950s. One of these, 68654, was photographed in Royal Docks with its PLA crew.