FNM600

Very intersting reading! So it looked that it was the trade and manufacturers that wanted OO 4mm so you could run locomotives round sharp curve for train sets by having wider splashers and spaced cylinders! And then the average modeller was forced to accept such offerings! This is what I understand from the articles. Is that so? Have I understood correctly?

If the 1st one doesn't work, try this one: http://www.limabritishho.co.uk/LBHO-Home.htm Re: A/C's well I got banned for suggesting on a high profile thread on the Hornby wish list that they could do some items in 1:87 such as repainting the RivaHornby USTC S100 in SR or BR colours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USATC_S100_Class . I got the wrath of the OO 1:76.2 4mm fraternity ! So I had to restart and be more careful not to offend the collectors with lots of 4mm 1:76 stock from their childhood and fathers.

On the trail of War time locomotives such as the USTC S160 (2-8-0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USATC_S160_Class and the USTC S100 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USATC_S100_Class I think these could be possibilities for British HO: The G.C.R. 2-8-0 Robinson class the LNER O4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROD_2-8-0 could be an interesting class as it operated on the Continent in both wars. Also some were sold later on and even preserved in Australia where 1:87 is the norm. It had external main motion and internal distribution thus making it easy to model and with wide splashers. Also the Riddles WD 2-8-0 and 2-10-0 classes which don't have the problem about splashers. The same for the J94 0-6-0T. For modern power sadly Vitrains power decided to pull out of making a class 92 given the dilemma on scale. See my post on Vitrains. Their importer wanted 1:76 but no use for French modellers ! They couldn't affort tooling for two scales. Certainly we could have repaints of class 66 locos (Mehano for example). Also class 86 (known as class 450 in Hungary) and class 87 still known as class 87 in Bulgaria. Also class 20 of which some went to France plus train to former Yugoslavia in the 90s. The narrow body not a uniquely British feature. For coaches the MkIII sleepers could be done as some worked in Denmark. In other words go for something that operated on both sides of the Channel for a start.

As we know, cross Channel (using ferries) traffic is not a new thing. In days past it was wholly wagonload with variety. Indeed if Heris goes ahead and are willing to sell just the underframe and/or the unpainted wagon there is scope for modifications. I find this site rather interesting as it shows cross channel wagons though the various ages. Inspiration for manufacturers to get a beginning also to appeal to both sides of the Channel. http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm I think the main argument for OO 1:76 on 1:87 track is legacy as a lot of modellers and collectors have stock from their childhood and their fathers and grandfathers. Living 10km from one of the ex-Hornby factories (not Lima but the other one) I understand the need for consistent over scale 1:80 or 1:82 models. But that is more those with already a large 1:80 collection but not if one starts from scratch. You might as well start the right scale and standards.

Sadly it is true that a lot of modern mainline Continental coaches were modelled too short to 1:100. But compared to British ones, modern Continental coaches are longer even compared to BR MkIII stock. A typical modern Continental coach such as a UIC-X type (the usual German stile postwar coach) is 26.4m (nearly 87' in Imperial !) long so in 1:87 it works to 303mm that is a full English foot. The sort of coach that Triang tried to model such as a mark1 coaches was only 64' (19.5m) long which works out to 224mm long in 1:87 and 256mm (say 10") in 1:76. They were expected to travel round 15" (381mm) train set radius, but the longer UIC-X coaches had to be shortened to 26.4/100=264mm long to go round the same tight curves. Indeed you can find for example that Lima's UIC-X coaches (and similar 26.4m stock) was shortened to 265mm but the shorter British coaches could be still be scale length even in 1:76! Actually a lot of older continental stock is shorter than 26.4m in reality and more easily to be made to scale 1:87 length. For example VSOE CIWL prewar sleeping cars tend to be more easily to scale length. But if one has the space for a model railway and not a toy train set and you are prepared to use no radius below 2' (600mm) on the mainline then you can run scale length coaches which are 303mm long! The results look better overall. Instead at the other extreme of length the typical short British goods wagon can be run almost buffer to buffer without the modern devices to move the couplings apart on sharp model curves. Not like old unmodified Lima 1973/76 British HO Admittedly NEM standard wheels have higher flanges (pizza cutters) and are wider than NMRA RP25 but the tendency is to go for finer wheels nowardays. It means that track has to be laid better with gentler changes of gradients.

Back to post N° 99 Mk3 British OLE is superficially very similar to typical SNCF 25kV OLE. That is from where 25kV 50Hz. came from. The height of the wire is different to allow for taller French loading gauge. You can tell travelling from Paris to London by Eurostar. Indeed French HO masts could do at first approximation for OO British layouts. Not so using other countries masts such as the Dutch, German, Swiss not to mention the peculiar FS Italian masts and hangers all modelled by Sommerfeldt. Sommerfeldt seem to be the experts of OLE ! Instead French 1500V DC is very different if not anything else for its thick wire which is easier to model to scale, A bit like the old Woodhead line. Hence I think PECO are going to do a good job.

Given that currently most class 87 locos are in Bulgaria and that handfull of the class 86 are in Hungary as class 450 I wonder whether these types of engines could be candidates for reproduction in 1:87 HO rather than the usual legacy OO 1:76 of Hornby tinplate days or Triang of old. Hornby who are international can draw experience from old 1:80 Rivarossi now part of Hornby for Italian outline from the days of big motors. Potential sales on both sides of the Channel. If these are to be made in 1:76, is there provvision in the bogies for easy conversion to 18.83mm track gauge correct for 1:76 4mm/ft?

This could be a start in producing a British HO 1:87 model. Same frame and bogies, just a different body. A bit how the Waship class 42 was made from the German V200.

Apologies for repeating the post, but it is maily to make more visible in the chronologies. These are the basic technologies: Series variable resistance in the main circuit Hammant & Morgan examples: Clipper and Duette (2 controllers in the same box) Variable voltage transformer Hammant & Morgan examples: Safety Minor and Powermaster Electronic (transistorized) control Hammant & Morgan examples: Electran and Executive The actual output waveform is usually in the non electronic types is just a rectified unidirectional series of sine waveforms (twice the AC mains frequency). For electronic types it can be dependant on the actual circuits used anything from almost pure level DC to trains of pulses (rectangular waves) or chopped sinewaves of frequencies varying from mains frequency (50Hz in Europe or 60Hz in N.America) to very high frequencies of up to tens of kHz. but in all cases overall unidirectional. These are the main advantages: Series variable resistance: - traditionally the cheapest and simplest sistem. Variable voltage transformer: - the output voltage for a given setting is fairly constant for differently rated motors and at the varying loads, - it is like the series variable resistance type elettromechanical in nature and tolerant of overvoltages and brief short circuits. - It is energy efficent with just low transformer's losses. Electronic (transistorized) control: - The output voltage for a given setting is constant and even stabilized regardless of the current drawn by the motors. - Possibility of adding all sort of features such as simulated inertia with realistic acceleration and braking. These are the disadvantages: Series variable resistance: - The actual output voltage for a given setting varies a lot depending on the motor's rating and actual load such as hauled load and whether the train is climbing or descending a gradient. - The reostat gets warm. Variable voltage transformer: - It is more expensive than the Series variable resistance type, Electronic (transistorized) control: - Its is more expensive than the simple series variable resistance and for older types more than the variable transformer too. - Unless properly protected it can be damaged instantly by short circuits on the track and overvoltages. Beware of Relco type track cleaners. ________________________________________________ Hoping it is useful !

I have noted this post. Rather than recomending a particular make, I am giving a brief summary of the types traditionally used for analogue control of model locomotives and trains with their respective advantages and disadvantages. Note: I am referring to the most common type which is 2 rail DC fed locomotives leaving aside systems such as the Ma"rklin one. Traditionally what is now called analogue control is feeding a DC voltage to the 2 rails. The speed of the motors and then locos is dependant on the magnitude of the applied DC voltage usually between 0 and 12V with a typical minimium of about 3-4V depending on the running quality of the motors and trasmission. Direction of travel determined by polarity which is selected with the reversing control which can be together or separatec from the speed control knob. The actual output waveform is usually in the non electronic types is just a rectified unidirectional series of sine waveforms (twice the AC mains frequency). For electronic types it can be dependant on the actual circuits used anything from almost pure level DC to trains of pulses (rectangular waves) or chopped sinewaves of frequencies varying from mains frequency (50Hz in Europe or 60Hz in N.America) to very high frequencies of up to tens of kHz. but in all cases overall unidirectional. NMRA and NEM norms specify forward running with the right hand rail looking in the direction of travel being positive for forward travel. So all locos should run in the same directions with same controller's settings. These are the basic technologies: Series variable resistance in the main circuit Hammant & Morgan examples: Clipper and Duette (2 controllers in the same box) Variable voltage transformer Hammant & Morgan examples: Safety Minor and Powermaster Electronic (transistorized) control Hammant & Morgan examples: Electran and Executive The actual output waveform is usually in the non electronic types is just a rectified unidirectional series of sine waveforms (twice the AC mains frequency). For electronic types it can be dependant on the actual circuits used anything from almost pure level DC to trains of pulses (rectangular waves) or chopped sinewaves of frequencies varying from mains frequency (50Hz in Europe or 60Hz in N.America) to very high frequencies of up to tens of kHz. but in all cases overall unidirectional. These are the main advantages: Series variable resistance: - traditionally the cheapest and simplest sistem. Variable voltage transformer: - the output voltage for a given setting is fairly constant for differently rated motors and at the varying loads, - it is like the series variable resistance type elettromechanical in nature and tolerant of overvoltages and brief short circuits. - It is energy efficent with just low transformer's losses. Electronic (transistorized) control: - The output voltage for a given setting is constant and even stabilized regardless of the current drawn by the motors. - Possibility of adding all sort of features such as simulated inertia with realistic acceleration and braking. These are the disadvantages: Series variable resistance: - The actual output voltage for a given setting varies a lot depending on the motor's rating and actual load such as hauled load and whether the train is climbing or descending a gradient. - The reostat gets warm. Variable voltage transformer: - It is more expensive tran the Series variable resistance type, Electronic (transistorized) control: - Its is more expensive than the simple series variable resistance and for older types more than the variable transformer too. - Unless properly protected it can be damaged instantly by short circuits on the track and overvoltages. Beware of Relco type track cleaners. ________________________________________________

Thank you for your reply to my questions. Re: My question on scale: Well in all countries there are different scales such as N 1:160, HO 1:87, O (albeit in the varieties of 1:45 (correct for the track), 1:43.5 (double HO at 7mm/ft), 1:48 (1/4" /ft) to suit different tastes in detailing and/or room available at home. I didn't think about it, but it makes sense to use this unusual scale S 1:64 as your local mainline gauge of 1067 or 3'6" would be scale at nearly 16.67 nearly HO track for track for STD gauge (1435mm) by a 1% error ! So one could use HO track with bigger sleepers and HO mechanisms. Also I wonder whether local homes have more bigger spare rooms such as sheds, etc. in many urban home in many parts of Europe. Also I doubt about much interchange of rolling stock with the local Australia as it is 3 hours by plane and not just 25miles/40km! You mention OO, but being an English speaking country (I believe in NZ you talk about railways rather than railroads) I am wondering about OO/HO saga and confusion there. You mention OO yourself. I discovered this years ago the hard way when I moved to UK. In Europe although there are different rail gauges such as in Spain/Portugal 1668mm and Russia/Finland 1524/1520mm and Ireland at 1600mm the height and spacing of buffers are the same thoughout in Europe to allow interoperability by means of wheel/bogie exchange at least on STD and broad gauge without using special adaptor wagons. In HO usually the same 16.5mm tracks (error on track gauge in Spain for instance) and 1:87 scale is used except for the islanders meaning GB as one S.African shop on the net puts it! Again compliments for your 3D printed detail parts!

In what scale is it in? 1:87 3.5mm HO or 1:76 4mm OO ? I must admit that 3D seems the salvation for poor British HO which facing an uphill struggle against the OO overscale brigade with so much legacy stock and being really pampered by the big boys such as (Triang)-Hornby, now a major make in my country too, and Bachmann plus that new manufacturer from the land of Lego (DK) ! Regarding Hornby they have rationalized the sectional track systems (Setrack) and power supplies but have... a long way to go regarding scale (1:76 1:80 1:87) and couplings although their latest offering have NEM362 coupling pockets make exchanges easy. Jokes apart, could and would you print to order by scaling OO drawings by 76.2/87= .87 ! Going O.T. : what scale is used in NZ ? For track I presume it is 12mm HOm the nearest commercial one to 3'6" 1067mm. Is that so? On the other hand looking at picture from down under on the net NZ railway structures seem very British! Is that so? Your items look very good!