Lecorbusier

Could I ask what may be an obvious question. I am trying to work out what kind of pre grouping wagons would have transported quarried limestone and mined spar ... specifically pre war when the majority were 8T wagons. I have been looking at the relative densities of limestone and spar in comparison with coal and the cubic capacities of MR wagons. What I have come up with is:- I have found the following figures on weights:- Fluor Spar (Solid) - 200 pound per cubic foot Fluor Spar (lumps) - 100 pound per cubic foot Fluor Spar (pulverised) - 90 pound per cubic foot Limestone (solid) - 163 pound per cubic foot Limestone (broken) - 97 pound per cubic foot Limestone (pulverised) - 87 pound per cubic foot Coal Bituminous (solid) - 84 pound per cubic foot Coal Bituminous (broken) - 52 pound per cubic foot. Assuming these figure are correct.... Looking at MR wagons available in 1910 - not exhaustive at all! 10T 6 plank - 366 cu ft (1902) - full of broken coal = 8.5T - full of pulverised limestone = 14.2T 12T 6 plank - 435 cu ft (1904) - full of broken coal = 10.1T - full of pulverised limestone = 16.9T 12T 7 Plank - 480 cu ft (1909) - full of broken coal = 11.1T - full of pulverised limestone = 18.6T 8T 7 Plank (hopper bottom) - 290 cu ft (1890s) - full of broken coal = 6.7T - full of pulverised limestone = 11.2T 8T 5 Plank - 292 cu ft (1890s) - full of broken coal = 6.7T - full of pulverised limestone = 11.3T 8T 3 Plank - 180 cu ft (1890s) - full of broken coal = 4.2T - full of pulverised limestone = 7T What quickly becomes apparent from this exercise is that (if the figures are valid) limestone or Calcite spar can't be transported in any waggon above 4 plank without severe overloading ... particularly as pre 1910 we are likely to be talking of 8T wagons? However I am sure I have seen 5 plank wagons loaded with stone? Does anyone have any thoughts/views on this?

Personally I think the Right Track weathering demonstration is very helpful .... there is nothing quite so good as watching someone doing something - they show you things just by doing that they don't even realise they are doing. Again this video is available on youtube, though no longer available to buy. I think it is a real loss that no one has been able to take over the supply of the dvds since the closing down of the original supplier. I have a fair few of them and they are very very good.

Just spent a happy 10 mins perusing the EM gauge 70s general layout gallery via your link .... absolutely stunning in my opinion.

a little provocative me thinks? .... duck while we await some P4 bashing in return

As someone who has not been building kits for that long (3 or 4 years) and so recently went through just the learning curve you are embarked upon I would suggest 3 things. Make sure you have a decent iron (the 50w Antex temperature controlled I found did the trick for me). If you can and haven't already see if you can have a go at a show where someone experienced is demonstrating ... it can shortcut a lot of the initial experimentation. Finally I found Tony's right track video demonstration of kit building a fantastic guide. Not available to buy anymore I am afraid but it is on you tube

An interesting question is whether it might be possible by using photoshop to replicate the sense of distance in the camera shot? Have you played around with that at all? Focus would remain sharp (as indeed it would with a prototype photo taken with a high pixel camera) but the view does get more hazy as it recedes. I know many landscape modellers mute colours to give an impression of distance but you can't replicate distance hazing in model form. Or perhaps that would be counter to the whole point ... ie it is showing off a model not attempting to fool the eye! I saw some shots of Jim Smith-Wright's Brettell Road (which has been lit to be viewed on a wet winter day late afternoon just after dark) and some rain had been photoshopped on ... I found this quite interesting.

all true ... and yet my point stands. Just because a view is sublime does not mean it can be captured and conveyed ... though most can perceive it in the flesh. And no one can accuse you of not giving credit. There was no intent to accuse of false modesty.

Here you are too modest. Trying to capture in a photograph something of the essence of what one observes and appreciates in real life - whether that be an actual railway or a model - is very much an 'art' ... as evidenced by all those who fail. As you rightly say, because the eye is constantly roaming and only focusses sharply on that which it is specifically looking at (building up the rest of the picture in 'the minds eye' so to speak) the mind naturally filters the extraneous. A camera cannot do this. So if you want to give an accurate impression of how something is actually experienced through the medium of photography, it takes not only considerable skill but also a very good eye ... and that is before one even starts to talk about the technical aspects such as the eye's ability to compensate for a massively greater range of light and dark than a camera ever can etc etc etc. Sorry if this sounds a little pompous ... but so often when I see excellent photography of model railways the name of T. Wright appears beneath the offending articles. message to self ... climb down off soap box!

Interested by the car polish. Would this work equally well on enamels where you wanted to put a bit of shine back? How does it interact with the powders?

Fantastic photos again. The depth of field makes it. Any clue/hints?

Charming ..... Amusing ..... and perhaps a tad provocative when appropriate!

Thanks for this .... relieved that it chimes with what I was proposing with my own weathering attempts .... ie a visually pretty clean and polished overall impression but with a fair amount of grime about the wheels, some heat degradation to the firebox area and evidence of recent cleaning out ... and of course some evidence of smuts and smoke, dirty cab roof etc. So similar to a later loco that hadn't been in traffic too long after a visit to the paint shop ... but with a degree more age showing around the smokebox and below the footplate. I suspect the goods locos would have been a whole lot dirtier though!

Curious to know what your thoughts might be on appearance during the so called 'heyday' of steam. I am modelling the Midland pre 1905 as I like the Johnson Locos pre the introduction of the 'H' boilers. The locos and stock must have worked pretty hard, but the impression is that of an army of cleaners lavishing loving care on both engines and carriages. I would be interested in your views on weathering for this period.

credit in the bank me thinks

Take your point but not sure I agree. I loved Railex but I have to say it seemed to me a very different beast. It had 19 layouts across 7 scales. It therefore had pretty broad appeal with something for a wider range of interests and was a show which I could imagine families dipping in and out of without getting bored. Scaleforum on the other hand had 9 show layouts and a work in progress all in P4. The atmosphere and approach was also much more specialised with in depth conversations, discussion and study taking place across the hall ... a situation where a youngster or non enthusiast would tend to grow bored. I for one brought my son and daughter to Railex and we spent a couple of hours max at the show (thoroughly enjoyable). I didn't contemplate taking either to Scaleforum and I spent the best part of 6 hours there. To me they are different animals, and if there is a viable way to keep Scaleforum in its current format I for one would be very pleased.

I used to model in 00. I have always been interested in Kit building and scratch building and wanted to have a go at building my own track. I considered 00 finescale, EM and P4. In the end I plumped to have a go at P4. This is not a judgement on any of the other options ... just that I liked the look of the track and as I do not have a large collection of stock ... why not? Whether I will be any good or produce anything worthwhile - well the jury is definitely out on that one. However, many of the modellers who have been kind enough to offer help and advice through the society forum I find also model in the other 4mm options. In my experience (with no historical baggage attached) no one has ever been derogatory or judgemental about other's choices, nor have they ever been anything but helpful when one's out-put is not what might have been hoped for. The watch word tends to be - its your layout, and the help is there for you to try and achieve what you want to achieve. Having your own preferences ... whether it is for P4 or EM, Diesel or Steam, pre grouping or British Rail etc etc is not the same as looking down upon or sneering on someone else for their preferences. I can only speak as I find over the past 3-4 years, and I have yet to come across anything purposely negative from scalefour members about either Em or 00. Thinking that an exceptional EM layout would have looked even better had it been P4 is surely the default position of someone who models in P4? simply out of preference. Constructive criticism is normally as a response to a request in the pursuit of solving a problem or improving on a situation - in such matters the choice of words is important.

All are welcome to their views. For my part .... I assume the format and models invited are based upon detailed discussions with the membership (the primary and potentially subsidising audience ) as to what on balance the majority would like present. I assume that there was a majority who were interested in some part built layouts. Opening the show to all comers is all about inclusivity along with the hope that some may either benefit or perhaps join ... but the show is a forum for the scale four society and as such it should surely be geared towards its primary clientele? I visited and thoroughly approved of the offering ... this is because it catered well for my interests. If it hadn't I would have said thanks but no thanks and moved on .... to criticise something for not being something it was never intended to be is odd .... after all a sports car is useless for the school run and a tractor is no good for motorway cruising ... horses for courses me thinks.

Yes Please

I've found that putting cyno bonded white metal in boiling water breaks the bond ... doesn't seem to like heat (assuming the superglue is cyno).

I model pre-grouping around 1902ish. This is primarily Kit or scratch building. Perhaps this will be the mainstay of kits in the future? New kits or the revival of old will always be required because the RTR options are simply not there. I was also in discussion with someone last weekend regarding the RTR market and it was his view that it was at a high point and likely to fall back considerably over the next decade. His reasoning was that there was currently a glut of modellers like him (though he builds all his own locos and stock) who were at the mature end of the spectrum. A large majority harked back to the post war end of steam/start of diesel/electric, had limited time to build that model they had always hankered after and had the means to purchase multiple high quality RTR offerings. It was his view that as this glut worked its way through, tastes would become far more widely ranged and eclectic and the purchasing numbers would simply no longer be there to fuel the current RTR boom ..... discuss! His concern was not for the continuation of kit or indeed scratch building .... but more about the potential loss of skills heralded by the developments in 3d printing and the like! If you can simply draw something and magically it is reproduced to the millimeter ... what happens to the crafts? this link illustrates the point....https://www.ted.com/talks/joe_desimone_what_if_3d_printing_was_25x_faster

great building but also I suggest Testament to a bloody good photograph!

Interesting ..... The bright clean modernity of the 60s, by the time I travelled by train (late 70s - early 80s) had somewhat paled! My memory is of everything run down and threadbare in dirgey browns and mustards! (not the trains) Smelly diesels, dirty stations and late late late services. Graffiti, failing sixties tower-blocks and sink estates ....and the emergence of Punk as a kick back against the system. Limited interest for a teenager at stations such that spotting never occurred to me ... more interested in music and climbing - though I loved my trainset! .... sounds good to model though doesn't it! However, if we are talking of the steam era of the Edwardian Midland ... now we're talking! .... lovingly polished and lined locos, clayton carriages to die for, station staff uniformed and spick and span ... and of course rose coloured spectacles well and truly on

I wonder how many are like me ? ..... I returned to the hobby in my mid 40s having modelled enthusiastically up until 6th form at school. University, the excitement of carving a path in my job, marriage and then kids drove out active modelling ... though not a nostalgic interest. I am still in the thick of it as far as work is concerned and with a family - youngest 10 - eldest 15 - weekends and holidays are pretty much spoken for. As a result I model late at night and early in the morning with a few stolen hours on occasional weekends. Being an active member of a club is out of the question ... though I hope this will change as children depart (a good 10 years distant). As far as shows are concerned, I am lucky if I attend a couple in the year. On the shop front, the internet is a god send and almost all my purchasing happens in this manner. My main contact with other railway modellers is via forums ... RMWEB and Scaleforum. If I am not a one off case ... then hopefully your observations at shows and regarding club membership are not the whole story. .... here's hoping anyway

You may well be right .... I don't have enough contact with other modellers to know. I fear with all the modern entertainments and distractions now available, the demographic for railway modelling as a hobby is unlikely to start much earlier than mid 40s nowadays (the exceptions prove the rule). I will just have to keep my fingers crossed that 40 to 50 somethings will keep popping out from the woodwork year on year to keep things going into the future. Model trainsets amongst the young if my experience is anything to go by are still pretty popular, so the seed does keep getting resown.

A few musings on this... In my generation during the late 70s, amongst the majority trainspotter was used as an insult! I am not at all sure that new or even returning modellers are exclusively drawn from the ranks of spotters now. Railway modelling it seems to me is passed down father to son as an enthusiasm (much like military modelling or non computer wargaming). The heritage railway boom and the re-emergence of mainline steam is a big feeder - it is perhaps a significant habitat for people who would have been spotters in the 50s. The heritage scene leads to an interest and often a fascination with how the railways used to be - and how they pervaded every aspect of life. This is evidenced by the remarkable number of mainstream documentaries on the subject (Dan Snow's locomotion, Full Steam Ahead ... etc etc). There is also I believe a considerable instinctive attraction to both moving and static scale models. When we are presenting building designs as architects we always find it is the models which captivate the most. I came to modelling through my father buying me a train set, linked with holiday memories of the Talylyn and an enjoyment of building airfix kits. Having grown up in the diesel era, I and many like me are fascinated by steam and not from any childhood memory. As such the whole historical range becomes our treasure trove .... for instance I have chosen to model the pre grouping Midland set in the Peak where I grew up. This is not to say the post steam era doesn't have its fascinations ... but rather that personal experience and memory doesn't have to be the main driver.