wessy

I have had a look at a LNWR marshalling circular and a Lancaster and Carlisle timetable for 1910, and the answer seems to be 'no'. It seems that the map could be a little relaxed about some of the details of services. For example, there were services from Liverpool Exchange (LYR) which went to Carlisle via the old East Lancashire Railway main line to Preston, but they were LNWR trains with LNWR stock. The LNW and LYR had a very good working relationship and LYR carriages went from Colne to Euston and to Windermere, but none seem to have been scheduled for Carlisle. Of course, there is nothing to stop a nice family saloon or some horseboxes passing through.

The LNWR use of Croydon Central may help you. This was the station at the end of a very short branch from the LBSCR main line and it closed in the 1890s, to be replaced by Croydon Town Hall. I have a copy of the LNWR public timetable for 1879 and it shows several LNW trains from Kensington, and at least a daily one from Willesden low level. I know that Croydon is more 'outer London' than Brighton Trafalgar, but 'Rule 1' may apply. Unfortunately, tank engines would be the usual power. At that time, it seems that the connections for LNW services from the north were at Willesden, where passengers would change for Kensington or Clapham Jct. If changing at Willesden, with luck one might meet this young lady, as painted by Tissot.

Gary, if you are a member of the Brighton Circle, there was a talk about Croydon Central as part of the on-line 'Virtual Blatchington' meeting in September 2021. There is a LBSCR track plan in there. The short branch was double track and there were two platforms Each had an engine release crossover, each one leading to a release line which went beyond the platforms and joined the opposite running line. I.e., the down platform release line joined the up running line and vice versa. This meant that the two release lines crossed over each other by a diamond crossing. There was then a scissors crossing further along the running lines to enable a loco to return to its train and also to facilitate correct line running when leaving the station.

"Regarding the size of the sheet, I note Mike @airnimal's statement that LNWR sheets were 19' 6" X 15' 5" before 1910: though he doesn't say where this info is from. Cross and Essery don't give dimensions for LNWR sheets, but their drawing suggests they were shorter and wider than the later standard of 21' x 14'4". " I think that these dimensions were quoted in 'LNWR liveries' by Talbot, Dow, Millard and Davies (HMRS 1985). They continue by stating that the later sheets were 21'6" by 14'5" to suit the larger high-sided wagons then in widespread use.

And neither does it invalidate it. Such precise information is unlikely to be a complete invention, but as Barry Lane does not specify the colour, but does state that they were coloured it may be that the source is now lost. In which case no-one can prove the colour to be wrong. Barry is an active participant in the LYR Society. Would not an enquiry to the Society be more useful than a debate on here?

The book on LYR locomotives by Barry Lane states that number plates on locos were painted to indicate the builder, but he doesn't state the colours. However Nock's history of the LYR lists them as follows: Beyer Peacock Green Kitson Blue Miles Platting Vermillion Neilson Chocolate Sharp Stewart Indigo Vulcan Foundry Light blue No colour was recorded for Dubs engines. Presumably although the colours were applied until the opening of Horwich and the ending of the use of outside builders, the number plates would not be repainted until the loco wwas.

The interior is almost restrained in comparison. My memory suggests that is was a royal carriage. I too have been to this museum. There is a splendid collection of rolling stock and some superb models. The whole place has the feel of a proper museum rather than a visitor experience. Its about half a mile from the station so is easy to find if you are ever in Nurnberg.

They had through carriages from the midlands to Cromer, and (from memory) Ipswich as well.

There is detail in Vol 3 of Marshall's history of the LYR. Some of the detail repeats that in Rush's book of 1949 and will have been extracted from Hawkshaw's list of June 1850. The 2-2-2s eventually comprised a class of 82 locomotives. 32 were built at Miles Platting, 20 by Fairbairn's and 30 by Bury, Curtis and Kennedy. Principal dimensions: Driving wheels 5' 9" (Bury and some Fairbairn engines), 5'10" for the rest Leading and trailing wheels 3'6" Boiler 4'2" x 10'1.5" Overall length 21'6"

The photo from the Swiss archive (also reproduced in Barry Lane's book on LYR locomotives) and the photo posted by Bill Bedford show some of the challenges to be found in early LYR loco history. Both are from Jenkins 2-2-2 tender engines but show different boilers, safety valves and outside steam pipes. Lane states that the engine in the Swiss photo was no. 70 rebuilt as a 2-4-0 in 1868 and scrapped in 1877. The livery was green and the dome and chimney top were copper. Numbers were carried at the front of the loco and the rear of the tender. The cut out in the footplate side sheet is to accommodate a Giffard injector. The modern view is that Jenkins was a competent locomotive engineer but hamstrung by a Board who did not want to invest in anything, preferring to pay large dividends instead. In his early years on the LYR he had the dubious benefit of having a Sir John Hawkshaw as Chief Engineer whose strengths, like Brunel further south, did not lie in the field of locomotive engineering and design.

Many of the drawings published in The Engineer and used in articles by Ahrons are also in his volume 'The British Steam Railway Locomotive 1825-1925.' It is 390 pages of pure joy and is often available second hand via Abe or other such sites. This one is certainly in the book.

There is a book 'Locomotives of the LNWR Southern Division' by Harry Jack which contains a similar drawing of the standard McConnell tender. The drawing is stated to be a Wolverton drawing of 1861. Jack also includes a list of the principal dimensions for the standard 6-wheel, short wheelbase tenders as follows: Wheel diameter 3'9" (12 spokes) Wheelbase 5'6"+5'6" Length excluding buffers 18'4" Tank length 15'6" Tank width 6'6" Tank height 3'6" Fuel space length 8'6" Fuel space width 3'6" Well length 12'6" Well width 3'6" Well depth 1'10" The concave coving fixed along the top outer edge of the tank rose from 4" at the front to 12" at the back.

Dave, I too have seen this before. I've looked through the British Railway Journal and it was on p269 of number 46 (spring 1993 - but the issue dates rarely matched when it was actually issued). The site is stated to be the Agar Town road vehicle yard and the picture is recorded as being taken in late 1914.

It is difficult to tell, but I think all 14". The 12" numbers (Jenkinson suggests) were generally applied after renumbering on the duplicate list.

Gareth, I've had a look in 'Locomotive liveries of the LMS' by David Jenkinson. He summarises he lettering of locos from 1928 ' ...six different basic colour combinations were also adopted, sometimes without apparent consistency'. However he then suggests the following:- Plain gold - most plain and some lined black engines Plain yellow - plain black engines only. He also states that the Crewe preference was to paint rather than use transfers (a Midland technique, and therefore abhorrent) and that the pale yellow used for lining red engines was used. After a few months this looked very similar to weathered gold transfers. So it's probably for you to decide and dare anyone to prove you wrong!