MDP78

Whilst station track plan diagrams as well as photos confirm that many stations, even serving relative small settlements, were provided with cattle pens, in quite a few cases, the photos show these looking a little unkempt by late 1950s and 1960s suggesting they were not used frequently, even in the goods yards of smaller market towns. I appreciate that a photo represents a snapshot and perhaps in some areas livestock traffic may have been more seasonal. However by the late 1950s and early 1960s, how much livestock traffic was a village or small market town station likely to generate? Would it be a cattle wagonlaod or two? Or by this time, would these types of stations have lost this traffic to road, with cattle or sheep being put into lorries and driven to a larger town for loading onto trains?

The photo of the milk train at Whitchurch is dated 1960 and the passenger train hauling milk tankers is dated 1962. I have my doubts the milk train would have come up from Pont Llanio. The milk from Ellesmere travelled to Crewe where I assume it then travelled onwards in a bulk train. Like you I'd always assumed milk from the creameries Aberystwyth-Carmarthen line went south to Carmarthen for onward transport, probably to London. I'd seen the comments about tankers going north to Aber on another thread. That surprised me. All the photos I've seen are suggest Empties came north as far as Pont Llanio, loaded tankers we south in timetabled milk trains or attached to passenger trains. In fact I'd have a book with a photo that can only really be explained if the passenger train had entered Pont Llanio station from the north, then propelled its coaches partially into the goods look. The train obscures whatever is in the loop but I assume the train was collecting tankers. No sure how the stacked up with the rule book, I thought passenger stock was prohibited from Pont Llanio's goods loop. But I guess no one was around to film it on their phone and drop the train crew in the it back then!!!

I have question about milk traffic, specifically to/from Ellesmere in Shropshire in the 1950s and 1960s. Ellesmere had a siding with loading facilities for milk, although I understand road tankers may also have loaded rail tankers from a loading dock as well. Either way, photographs and videos I have seen suggest between 2-5 tankers were often dispatched, normally bound for Crewe. The tankers were often attached to the rear of the afternoon Aberystwyth to Crewe passenger train. However the WTT also includes an early evening milk train which ran as required. My question is when would a dedicated milk train run as opposed to attaching tankers to the Crewe bound passenger train. I know the logical answer is when there was enough milk to justify a full train. However in The Shrewsbury to Crewe Line book by Bob Yate in the section on the Ellesmere line there is a Crewe bound passenger train with 5 tankers from Ellesmere. Elsewhere in the book though there is a picture of a milk train in Whitchurch also with 5 tankers. The caption indicates it was coming off the Cambrian line. I appreciate this may be an error by the author but as the locomotive is a Collett Goods, on balance it is probably correct. So if the number of tankers wasnt the reason for running a dedicated milk train, where else would be?

The Michael Clemens Railways website has GWR and BR(W) working timetables: http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/article/working-timetables/553 There are 1947 GWR and 1949 BR(W) timetables that specifically cover the Chester to Birkenhead route. The Chester-Birkenhead route is not included specifically in the Chester District 1959 timetables but they do cover the Shrewsbury to Chester route and it is possible to identify the services that ran over that route and originated or terminated at Birkenhead Woodside, including services that ran to Barmouth or Pwllheli via the Ruabon to Barmouth line.

This is of course very much with the benefit of hindsight particularly as no tilting versions of the IC225 trainsets were ever built, however would it have made more sense to build the mk4 coaches, DVTs and indeed the class 91's with a conventional body profile? I appreciate that effectively what would result in is an updated 140mph capable mk3 trainset. But there would have been some benefits, for avoiding the need for separate mk3 and mk4 DVTs, so some economies of scale in production. Taking this 'what if' to its logical conclusion, given that the IC225 didn't run at 140mph in revenue earning service it does beg the question whether it would have been better to simply put class 91 and a mk3 DVT either end of a set of mk3s thus delivering a high degree of commonality (save for the Class 91) with the train sets used by Intercity on the WCML.

Signalmen must have been pretty happy when distant started getting motors. Working two mechanical distants from the same level must have been a decent workout, especially on route with a lot of trains timetabled to pass through at speed.

Yes I know that to be the case. The question was about Hartlebury Station's level frame. I am aware that the distant arm on no.26 (Hartlebury Junction's Up Main Home) was worked by a level in Hartlebury Station. The question was whether Hartlebury Station had a level for no.26 and a level for no.27. The reference to Hartlebury Jcn in the question was in reference to the levels for those signals being on the left hand side of the Station Box's lever frame I.e. the side of the box nearest to Hartlebury Jcn.

Just had a further thought. Would Hartlebury Station Box have 2 distant levels for the side of the level frame closest to Hartlebury Junction ? I.e. : 1. A distant lever to allow the distant shown numbered 27 on the track diagram; and 2. A distant lever to allow the distant attached to Hartlebury Junction's Up Main Home (no.26 on the diagram)? I assume so, or some such arrangement so that it was possible to leave no.27 at caution for an approaching train but allow the distant on no.26 to be cleared if appropriate.

Managed to get a shot of the Hartlebury Junction diagram. The distant in question is identified as no.27. Presumably though, this would still have been slotted or interlocked so that it only cleared when both boxes had cleared all of the following signals?

This question is about distant signal operation where two signal boxes are close together. I understand that Box B's distant would be slotted with one of Box A's starters. However how would Box A's distant work (not one slotted on one of Box B's signals). I have 4 volumes of 'An Illustrated History of GWR stations'. Some diagrams do explain how Box A's distant would work. In the case of Hartlebury Junction, the distant was apparently worked by Hartlebury Station Box. There are also examples where the distant is slotted. Are there any other ways for the distant to work? For example would Box A's distant level be mechanically interlocked with the level in Box B that cleared its starter?

This is more of a request for help of a steer in the right direction if possible. Does anyone know where I'd be able to get hold of the freight WTT for the Shrewsbury to Crewe line circa 1959-1960. Tried British Railway Books but for the time periods I'm looking for there hasn't been anything available for a while.

One I have used the current 'rules' for allocating wagons to trains and to the goods yard I do plan to look into something like chance cards to add an extra dimension. My initial thoughts on this are perhaps an extra wagon or van being delivered, perhaps something more unusual may turn up on a goods train (presflos for example) or a wagon or van needing to be picked up on an earlier train because an urgent delivery is needed. I am looking forward to the release of the KR Models Palbrick wagons. As there were brick works in the Wrexham and North Shropshire areas and my layout is loosely located there, I think I can get away with assuming the branch serves one. That would add another variable for traffic.

At the moment there are no mandatory wagons per day. This is partly because I haven't had chance to work through a full 'week' yet (or 6 turns). The numbers of wagons allocated by each dice rolls takes account of existing stock levels as well. There is a mandatory 2 extra vans every other day/turn for the branch though. It is assumed the branch has a creamery like Pickhill near Wrexham that received Cadbury's chocolate crumb deliveries. Whilst that is prototypical to a point I have no idea if vans would have been delivered (and indeed returned) daily. Pickhill also could have two to three times that number delivered. But if I was to replicate that I'd run out of vans for other trains quite quickly!!

Using the example of open wagons a roll of 1 would mean 50% of the ones in the train would be dropped off, a roll of 2 would mean 100% dropped off. A 3 means 50% dropped off in the branch exchange sidings and a roll of 4 100% dropped in the branch exchange. A 5 or 6 means no general wagons dropped off. I dont roll anything to determine which sidings the wagons go to. I have a siding with a goods shed and loading platform, a siding without and a siding with a loading dock. The latter is served in the opposite direction to the other 2. There is also a refuge siding that the goods uses to park the wagons not needed to be dropped off. I shunt vans to the goods shed or loading platform. Open wagons also may go to the loading platform or the siding without the goods shed as do coal wagons. The loading dock has a crane so has wagons like conflats.

In terms of the make up of freight trains I am currently using dice rolls to determine numbers of wagons of certain types although at the moment rolling a 5 or 6 means no wagons or vans of a specific type. Once I know the make up of the train, a second dice roll takes place. This determines the numbers of wagons of each type that get dropped off in the goods yard, how many get dropped off in the branch exchange sidings and how many remain with the pick up working. Once dropped off wagons have to wait a specific number of 'turns' (operating sessions) before being picked up. So far it has made things more interesting than how I was running goods before - i.e once the dice rolls have taken place there is actually a clear plan as to which wagons stay/leave. It also means it is more likely I have to shunt wagons out of the way to access ones at the end of the siding.

I've got quite a few books in the 'Branch Lines Around' series by Vic Mitchell and Keith Smith. The books I have record freight tonnages in/out of stations on the routes in the books. This would suggest that even by the 1930s (late dates not given in the ones I have) some stations were only receiving, for example, a coal wagon once every 2 weeks or so on average. So quite often there was unlikely to be much traffic at those stations, if any, depending on the time of year.

I am in the process of perfecting a system of allocating wagons and vans to model pick up goods trains using dice rolls and derivative of a waybill system. This has produced some interesting results so far, such as trains with very few wagons on some occasions and the reverse on others. The intention is to try to replicate peaks/troughs in demand and therefore relatively prototypical. It is also intended to add interest to shunting the goods yard. It has got me thinking about how strictly the WTT was adhered to though. In WTTs regular freight workings are timetabled to be in certain stations for a specific period of time. The longer the period of time, I am comfortable with the assumption that normally that station was destined to receive or generate more traffic. I am also comfortable assuming that junction stations also would typically generate more work for pick up goods that other stations due to the need to exchange wagons, thus also justifying timetabling the pick up goods to spend more time there. However based on initial trials of random allocation of wagons to trains I do have a few questions. Despite being timetabled to shunt a particular station for a certain period of time, I assume that even in the prototype, especially by the early 1960s, some stations would generate no or very little traffic on certain days. Even if the train was timetabled to be in a particular station shunting the yard for say 1 or 2 hours, if there was actually only 30 minutes work there, which of the following would happen: a) the train simply sits in the yard once all of the work is done and waits for the allocated time to come before departing to the next station; or b) if the section ahead was clear and there was sufficient time in the timetable to avoid other traffic, the train moves to the next station (or indeed to its final destination) early?

I have come to this thread a little late, but I hope better late than never. Presflo wagons could turn up in quite rural locations. I would recommend the book Bala Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog by D W Southern (Foxline Publishing), even if you are not necessarily interested in modelling a location in rural North Wales. There are a number of pictures in the book of the branch freight workings with presflo wagons. There are also a couple of pictures showing a rake of presflo wagons in a siding at Trawsfynydd station and Trawsfyndd military station. The pictures date from 1959 and coincide with the commencement of construction of Trawsfynydd nuclear power station. The presflos were worked up to Bala via the Ruabon to Barmouth line - I have another book with a picture of a Bala to Ruabon freight train that includeds a pair of empty presflos being worked back to Ruabon. For modelers of rural branch lines and stations, those modelling a specific line or station as well as those modelling no specific location in particular, the above demonstrates that it would be possible and prototypical to include a couple of presflo wagons in branch pick up workings and to justify shunting some in/out of a rural station goods yard, in addition to the more typical wagons for coal and vans for agricultural or general goods that such stations would normally be destined to receive. If you are modelling a station in a rural location that is a junction of two rural routes, it could also allow the freight workings on the more significant of the routes serving the station (such as the Ruabon to Barmouth in the above example) to leave rakes of presflos in a siding for freight working on the more minor route to pick up and later drop off. As the above example demonstrates, modeler's licence allows you to assume that even in a rural area major off-site construction projects sometimes took place that required significant quantities of cement to be delivered to the nearest rail head.

Thanks for the replies. Really interesting. I'll have to re-watch the DVD and take a closer look at the van.

This may be a daft question but would fruit vans have ever been found in pick up goods workings? I know fruit was transported from stations on the Bewdley to Tenbury Wells line - I have a DVD showing a Bewdley bound freight in the early 60's picking up a van containing what the commentator as a consignment of plums. Would this have been a fruit van or a regular ventilated van?

Whilst I understand that trains would be organised with wagons for successive stations down the line being located sequentially behind the locomotive and that some stations would be shunted by the pick up goods in certain directions depending on the layout of the station, I have spent a lot of time trying going through the WTT for Whitchurch to Welshpool and Ellesemere to Wrexham. Ellesmere was served by an Oswestry bound morning freight and an afternoon Whichurch to Ellesmere. The local appears to have spend much of the afternoon shunting before returning to Oswestry double heading the afteroon Wrexham-Oswestry (via Ellesmere) freight. There were freights in the opposite direction although they spent little time at Ellesmere so I assume most inbound or outbound traffic was handled by the freights originating in Whitchurch. The Wrexham-Oswestry freights may also have supplemented this, although I have no evidence of that. There was and afternoon Wrexham freight which originated in Ellesmere rather than Oswestry. According to the WTT this served the Cadburys siding at pickhill. Because it left before the afternoon Whichurch-Ellesmere freight but after the morning Whichurch to Oswestry I assume any traffic for Cadburys arriving in Ellesmere with this train. This poses a couple of questions (in my mind at least): I have assumed any traffic for Pickhill (or indeed other sidings/stations between Ellesmere and Wrexham) would be left in Ellesmere's up sidings. It is also possible it arrive the previous day and sat in a siding in Ellesmere overnight. Either way, how likely is that a) These wagons or vans for the Wrexham branch would form a distinct cut marshalled at the rear. This would require locomotive to run round, detach these wagons plus brake van, shunt them into the up sidings, then reattach the brake van, run round before propelling the train into the down sidings, where the main goods year was located; or b) The wagons are attached behind the locomotive. It propels the whole train into the good yard, then draws forward again with just the Wrexham wagons, the loco runs round, shunts the wagons into the up sidings and then returns to the goods yard to shunt the inbound/outbound traffic from Whichurch/to Oswestry; or c) the Wrexham wagons are simply left in the down goods yard along with any wagons specially bound for Ellesmere, and the locomotive for the Wrexham freight picks the wagons up from there, along with any others from Ellesmere that are destined for Wrexham when assembling the train. Given that the freights on the Whitchurch to Oswestry section were timetabled to shunt at Ellesmere for a couple of hours, any of the above could have taken place.

Sorry yes I currently only have 3 cattle wagons!!

Thanks for taking the time to reply! As it turns out I currently only have 3 wagons on my layout (loosely based on this route). I now feel I can justify running them in a train of general goods wagons!

I originally posted this in Modelling Questions but it was suggested here might be more appropriate. I have a copy of a Working Time Table for the Oswestry District for 15 June to 13 September 1959 which I downloaded from the Michael Clemens Railways website some time ago. My interest is in traffic between Whichurch and Welshpool. Excluding Wrexham to Oswestry freights, which reverse at Ellesmere, in Down direction there were two daily Class H freights. An AM Whitchurch to Oswestry, which shunted at Ellesmere for nearly 2 hours, and an early PM Whitchurch to Ellesmere. In the Up direction (again excluding Wrexham bound traffic) there are two Class H, a very early morning and another AM freight, both Oswestry to Whitchurch. I am reasonably confident that the Class H trains would have been an assortment of wagons and vans, based on photographs I have seen. There are two other Up freights that I am less sure about. There was a 6.55pm WO Oswestry to Whitchurch Class D listed in the timetable as 'Livestock'. There was also a 7.45pm WX Class F listed as 'To LMR Empties'. Taking the latter first: 1. Does anyone have any insight as to what 'Empties' means in this context. Was it 'Empty' as in a working that effectively balances the AM Whitchurch to Oswestry class H and was simply returning empty wagons to the LMR? Or was this likely to be a train primarily consisting of a number of a particular type of empty wagon? 2. For the WO Class D, I am able to make a reasonably well educated guess that this train included a number of livestock wagons. Being from Oswestry (although being born sometime after this line closed), I know that Wednesdays is market day in Oswestry, so I assume the train conveyed live animals from Oswestry to somewhere beyond Whitchurch. What I am less sure about is whether this train would have been made up entirely of livestock wagons or whether this train would have also been made up of livestock wagons plus the the stock that would otherwise have made up the 7.45pm 'Empties' on the other days of the week? Apologies in advance for my lack of knowledge in respect of WTT terminology.

I have a copy of a Working Time Table for the Oswestry District for 15 June to 13 September 1959 which I downloaded from the Michael Clemens Railways website some time ago. My interest is in traffic between Whichurch and Welshpool. Excluding Wrexham to Oswestry freights, which reverse at Ellesmere, in Down direction there were two daily Class H freights. An AM Whitchurch to Oswestry, which shunted at Ellesmere for nearly 2 hours, and an early PM Whitchurch to Ellesmere. In the Up direction (again excluding Wrexham bound traffic) there are two Class H, a very early morning and another AM freight, both Oswestry to Whitchurch. I am reasonably confident that the Class H trains would have been an assortment of wagons and vans, based on photographs I have seen. There are two other Up freights that I am less sure about. There was a 6.55pm WO Oswestry to Whitchurch Class D listed in the timetable as 'Livestock'. There was also a 7.45pm WX Class F listed as 'To LMR Empties'. Taking the latter first: 1. Does anyone have any insight as to what 'Empties' means in this context. Was it 'Empty' as in a working that effectively balances the AM Whitchurch to Oswestry class H and was simply returning empty wagons to the LMR? Or was this likely to be a train primarily consisting of a number of a particular type of empty wagon? 2. For the WO Class D, I am able to make a reasonably well educated guess that this train included a number of livestock wagons. Being from Oswestry (although being born sometime after this line closed), I know that Wednesdays is market day in Oswestry, so I assume the train conveyed live animals from Oswestry to somewhere beyond Whitchurch. What I am less sure about is whether this train would have been made up entirely of livestock wagons or whether this train would have also been made up of livestock wagons plus the the stock that would otherwise have made up the 7.45pm 'Empties' on the other days of the week? Apologies in advance for my lack of knowledge in respect of WTT terminology.