Ken.W

February 13

On 09/02/2024 at 17:06, DaveF said:

A photo taken at Pilmoor with GWR, LMSR and BR Mk1s taken by Dad.

Pilmoor Class 40 D278 Paignton to Newcastle travelling on up fast line August 67 J1063

First carriage is a Hawksworth BCK, then a Hawksworth SK, followed by a Stanier SK and a Stanier CK - possibly a Porthole example. Mk1’s follow on after those four. Info on coaches courtesy Rob (Market65) on here.

David

Thanks, an interesting photo on two counts

Firstly, in relation to this thread, as l suspected would generally be the case, the grouping of ex-GW & LMS coaches together in a separate section from the others, meaning only one adapter- fitted vehicle was required.

Secondly, it's the Paington to Newcastle, ie a Down train, on the Up Fast, so wrong line Pilotman working in force for some reason....

and the date of August 67 puts it shortly after the incident involving DP2 just North of there

February 9

On 04/02/2024 at 15:24, Wickham Green too said:

Any loco other than Mr.Wainwright's* : the steam reverser's pretty conspicuous instead ! ( NOT to be confused with a Wessy pump - which might be present too ! )

* or derivatives ......................................... other steam-reversed locos are available

Good point there, edited accordingly.

I should have known that one, plenty exNER engines had steam reverse too! :blush:

February 3

On 29/01/2024 at 15:21, Longhaireddavid said:

Hi everyone. I have now moved from US outline to GWR. I have four locos - 2 x pannier, 1 x 23XX and 1 Manor. I want to put drivers into each but not sure which side they sit. I have a feeling that GWR was left hand drive. Is this correct?

Hi, the easy way to tell, for any loco;

The reversing ~~lever and rod~~ gear, and, if vacuum fitted the ejector pipe (the one along the boiler side from cab to smokebox) near handrail, are on the drivers side

February 3

4 hours ago, DenysW said:

I'm less so, just because of the vibrations and dirt inseparable from reciprocating coal-fired steam engines. Also the (relative) lack of control/perfectionism on water supplies. And the pride the British railway industry took in training on new technologies by osmosis. Stanier couldn't get dedicated crews to run Turbomotive, for heavens sake.

Yes, apparently from what I've read of this matter, the water tube boiler didn't take kindly to being battered about running around the railway

However, one surprising aspect of the story which l recently came across...

The water tube boiler actually out-lived the loco by around 5 years

It survived as a stationary boiler at Darlington loco works until 1964, used for high pressure testing of boilers

The rebuilt W1 having been withdrawn June '59

January 30

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Coo! That would of course have to be 500 individual birds in individual poses...

I have a Chivers BY Pigeon Van, and a fine kit it is, too. TTBOMK only the LNER and presumably it's pre-grouping constituents went in for these, and I'm not sure what specific feature of them made them specifically Pigeon Vans. They were used as general NPCCS, and general NPCCS with drop-down shelves were used to convey pigeons. Just for the fun of it, I made my kit up with a fully-detailed interior, which was pretty much pointless as it can't be seen, but there are two levels of drop-down shelves, which may be the difference...

With the LNER vans it was the drop-down racks which designated them as being pigeon vans..

As well as the 4-wheel BY, they also had bogie BG pigeon vans.

January 30

5 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Is that a world record for a pheasant ?

Nope, it got up to 125 after we cleared the PSR over the fens

January 29

39 minutes ago, figworthy said:

P.S. I'm wondering if this topic is going to the dogs.

Nah, it's going to the pheasants

Another encounter l had with one, back in InterCity days with an HST, non-stop through Peterborough and going over the fens south of there...

Pheasant takes off out of 4ft in right in front of us at 105mph, dead centre of windscreen...

Took 10 miles to wash it off

January 29

13 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Anything built now regardless of whether its a multiple unit or a loco haulled coach will be expected to have the door locking interlocked with the brakes so a door which is not proved to be locked will prevent the train moving off.

Doing it this way will prevent human error (as in the Guard not observing the locking system has a problem and the right away being given with doors unsecured which is a possibility if you don't link the door system to the brakes (or traction system).

Not sure if the BR system fitted to the M2 / M3 fleet had any interlocking though - given money was tight and it was basically a 'do minimum' solution (as opposed to rebuilding the coaches with powered doors say) then it may not have done.

Whether the ORR would be happy with that today is another matter of course.

Two different systems to consider here

All trains I've dealt with that have centrally controlled power operated doors do have an Interlock of some sort, power, brake, or both

The CDL system as retro- fitted to slam-door stock is a secondary locking system and is not interlocked, AFAIK, on any stock.

EG,

91/Mk4 has Interlock on both power and brake. Traction power can't be obtained without Interlock, but in addition, if interlocks lost above 3mph the brakes dumped.

On the HST, we had no interlock with the CDL, nor any indication in the Cab.

January 28

7 hours ago, Ken.W said:

I did once though get stopped by a pheasant!

Perhaps a bit more info on this one, even a level crossing there for a tenuous claim to getting back on topic.

91/Mk4 set, DVT leading, approaching Doncaster in the Bentley area, so was probably at 125.

The pheasant attempted take off out the 4ft just ahead of me, but hit right on the ATP isolating cock, forcing its handle back against the buffer beam and opening the cock.

It must, l think, have known our Defensive Driving Policy, as it dumped the brake on me at just the right place to bring us to a stand a loco length from the signal protecting Arksey Level Crossing.

This was fortunate as the signaller was then able to reset the signal and re-open the crossing while we waited for the Doncaster fitter to come out to free the cock handle which was very firmly wedged against the buffer beam.

He didn't have far to come though, on the first available northbound, for those who don't know the location, this is the signal where we get the double yellow when getting cautioned for the turnout into the platform at Doncaster.

January 27

7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If a train runs a dog over, is it required to stop, like a motorist?

Nothing you could do about it anyway, by time you stopped you're anything up to a mile and a half away.

A different matter with large animals though, as its a possible obstruction so need to stop to protect the line.

I did once though get stopped by a pheasant!

January 27

On 25/01/2024 at 20:24, black and decker boy said:

so probably just a Carnforth oddity .

Well, at least it suits them

January 27

On 25/01/2024 at 20:52, seraphim said:

As a youth, a favourite train-spotting location was Hest Bank crossing, on the shores of Morecombe Bay. One day, a lady walking a small dog was stopped at the (frequently) lowered barriers. She choses not to use the footbridge. Instead, she ties the dog's lead to the barrier, and watches the train pass. You can guess the rest...

I remember hearing of the same thing happening at Falloden LC

No footbridge though, this is the ECML in rural Northumberland

Dog walker stopped at lowered barriers, so slipped end of lead on end of barrier, train goes past.....

At the time, this was an AHB crossing.....

January 25

On 24/01/2024 at 11:14, Michael Hodgson said:

Yes well, Belgium didn't have driving tests until 1960.

I sometimes wonder whether we still do

January 23

13 hours ago, Nick C said:

It is, yes, so it can be used on Mainline railtours. I also note that the SETG have announced that they are going to fit CDL and retention tanks (along with GSMR and OTMR) to the 4VEP to allow mainline use - and a VEP has a lot of doors - 60 if I can count correctly, compare with 48 in a 12-car set with the previously quoted 4 per coach...

https://www.setg.org.uk/4vep-returning-to-traffic-in-2024-with-new-fundraising-appeal/

That's Interesting.

So, if SETG are going to be able to fit CDL to 60 doors on just a 4 car set, just what is WCRs problem with fitting it to just 48 doors on 12 cars?

January 23

7 hours ago, 2251 said:

The position of LU is, in think, in part due to the definition of "Mark I rolling stock" in the 1999 Regulations. It is defined as "rolling stock which has a structural underframe which provides its own longitudinal strength and has a passenger compartment created on the underframe which relies mainly on the underframe for its longitudinal strength". in other words, it does not mean BR Mark I stock at all, but something very different.

Various operators were given a blanket exemption by Regulation 4 from the ban on Mark I stock:

"(1) No person shall operate, and no infrastructure controller shall permit the operation of, any Mark I rolling stock on a railway.

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to rolling stock which at the relevant time is being exclusively operated other than for the carriage of fare paying passengers or by London Underground Limited, Tyne and Wear Passenger Transport Executive, Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive or Serco Metrolink Limited."

In the case of LU that presumably reflected the amount of its stock which while not BR Mark I in origin is "Mark I rolling stock" for the purposes of the Regulations.

I find that funny that they class Tyne & Wear Metrocars as Mk1 stock

January 21

On 13/01/2024 at 19:33, Michael Hodgson said:

A bit closer to home, this rather poor shot I took in 2003 and most defintely is not a fake, nor was the crossing faulty.

User-worked crossing, Langford, ECML just south of Biggleswade. Linespeed 125 I believe. It clearly shows the need to observe step 3 of the instructions. I understand originally it didn't even have conventional gates - just a simple open crossing with Beware of Trains notices, ~~probably once~~ a private LC giving access to the cottages/farm on the other side of the line.

The residents, the dustman and postman are locals and probably understand it, but white van couriers?

I should probably go and see the current status, because it seems that after years of being unhappy with it, the authorities are finally going to do something about it ...

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/community-invited-to-share-their-views-on-level-crossing-downgrade-in-bedfordshire

Corrected that for you. (My bold)

I'm am, of course, very familiar with that crossing.

It still is a private crossing, being an occupation crossing with user-worked barriers, for access to the cottages and farm on the side your photos taken from. As can be seen in the photo in the linked NR notice the 'road' immediately becomes an unmade track on that side of the line. You're correct that linespeed, on the Fast lines (the two centre ones), is 125mph, the Slow lines are 80.

Current status? Was still the same when l retired around 4 years ago, happy to see it's probably going.

January 21

On 17/01/2024 at 05:46, phil-b259 said:

Once again its hard not to believe the DfT hasn't got it in for the railways (and don't kid yourself that this idea was just something LNER dreamed up by themselves....)

Indeed.

Aren't Off Peak Tickets regulated fairs? Which, AIUI, means that any change to them can only come from higher up

January 21

On 18/01/2024 at 14:03, Gilbert said:

From Pathfinder..

ANNOUNCEMENT:

THE SETTLE & CARLISLE WINTER EXPRESS
SATURDAY 24 FEBRUARY 2024

Due to a change in circumstances, our original 1960's carriages from West Coast Railway Co are unavailable for this rail excursion. But fear not! We've turned this challenge into an opportunity to transport you back in time to the unforgettable blue and grey era of the 1980s.
Embark on a spectacular journey featuring Southern Railway Battle of Britain Class, No. 34067 'Tangmere' pulling a rake of blue and grey coaching stock. Visually we will make fond memories of the days when 34092 'City of Wells' performed these duties, four decades ago over the same route. We extend our gratitude to Riviera Trains for their generous contribution, providing us with their carriages, enabling us to run this excursion.

That would be the best solution to this situation

Just let those imbeciles at WCR get themselves banned (as they should have been years ago) and allow others who are willing to comply with the regulations take their place

January 21

On 20/01/2024 at 07:50, St Enodoc said:

It was a running theme in the Sunday Express' Michael Watts column for many years - called the Department of Appropriate Names (DAN).

In a company I worked for, the expert in fire engineering was a Mr Woodburn.

Reminds me of an incident l had when we used to run through to Glasgow, so probably GNER days.

At about 80, approaching Curriehill going round a blind left hand bend into a cutting, no visible track ahead, just a whole flock of sheep. Brake to emergency and leaning on the horn. Came to a stand, just missing the OH neutral section with the 91, did the necessary and continued to Glasgow.

On arrival, was told 8 of them were killed

On getting back to Newcastle had to go upstairs for a debrief with the duty Driver Manager.....

Mr. Wooley

January 21

On 13/01/2024 at 23:10, Legend said:

Now safety is paramount and I can well see the need for CDL in Mainline operations . However just as it’s not required for preserved railways, should there not be an exemption specifically for the Jacobite , assuming that WCRC have other provisions in place to ensure safety . I know they were caught out by ORR on inspection in 2023 , but have since taken on the stewards necessary .

Again I ask how many people have been injured on the Jacobite . What is needed is common sense and pragmatic approach to the situation .

Yes safety is paramount, someone needs to get that through to WCR, and they are a mainline operation.

They did have an exemption in place for the Jacobite, with provisions in place to ensure safety - which they were found to not be observing, not once, but twice in the space of a month. The first got them an improvement order, being caught again after just a month earned a prohibition.

Don't forget, they'd also previously had two open door on moving train incidents, luckily without injury, or worse.

So, as for your last point, what's that got to do with it? There's already been more than enough incidents of deaths and injury with hinged door stock (hence CDL in the first place), so why do we need to wait for such an incident on that particular train to do something about that one?

I find WCRs attitude to this, failing to comply with the provisions for the exemption to CDL, and continued refusal to its fitment rather disturbing given their past record, and leads me to wonder what else they may be failing to observe.

At Wooton Bassett, one of their trains came within 30 seconds of a high speed head on with an HST which would undoubtedly resulted in a major casuallty toll, the outcry from which could well have had all heritage mainline operation shut down. Although it was the driver responsible for isolating to override a TPWS application, it was the company's safety management culture (ie lack of) which permitted it to happen, no driver on a properly managed company would ever consider such a thing.

Someone earlier made reference to cowboys in relation to WCRC, sorry, but that's a gross insult....

To cowboys.

Personally I'd need to think twice before allowing them to run a Hornby trainset

January 21

On 13/01/2024 at 23:23, TheSignalEngineer said:

LMS stock for the Wirral lines electrification in 1938 (19 x 3 car sets) and the new Southport sets (152 vehicles) built 1939 were the only ones with sliding doors. BR added 24 sets to replace the old Mersey Railway sets in 1956-7.

LNER Tyneside Stock had manually operated sliding doors. I don't kmow if they had any interlocking system.

The LNER ordered about 100 sets with sliding doors for the Great Eastern Suburban lines and Manchester - Hadfield but they weren't introduced until BR days. They became classes 306 and 506.

I think the only BR designed sliding door stock prior to the PEP prototype were the 303/311 sets for Glasgow in the 1960s

The LNER Tyneside stock apparently didn't have any interlocking, there's been previous references to them frequently running with the doors open in hot weather.

On the LNERs GE & Hadfield stock, it was a certain Austrian Corporal responsible for the delay in their introduction

January 20

On 12/01/2024 at 22:39, roythebus1 said:

There's still nothing to stop WCRC running their train with hired-in compliant stock. .......a diesel loco between steam loco and compliant air or vac braked stock. the diesel loco acts as translator vehicle between vas steam, air-braked loco and vac or air braked train. Simple really, much fuss about nothing if you can hire a suitable train for a while.

Not quite so simple unfortunately.

It seems that the locos WCR have for the Jacobite are vacuum only, if spare CDL fitted vacuum stack is available for hire then yes, no problem

However the problem seems to be that any available CDL fitted stock, including some that WCR apparently have, is air braked.

Although it is possible for an air braked only loco to work a vacuum braked train with a dual braked loco between as a sort of translator, it does not work the other way round.

On a dual braked loco working in vacuum mode, it's the air train pipe pressure that governs the vacuum via a relay valve in the engine room, the drivers brake valve being purely an air brake valve apart from in the emergency position. The relay valve would still work the same way with the air train pipe pressure being reduced by another loco, but doesn't work the other way with vacuum controlling air.

Another issue, that seems to have been missed, in the pictures posted earlier of WCR's CDL fitted stock which were air braked, is they were also air conditioned stock. This means that having no ventilators, they'd be required to have an ETH supply.

Although this is easily solved by having a diesel loco or generator van on the train this causes a further problem as, l believe, the train is already up to the load / length limit for the route. So, this additional vehicle couldn't be added without removal of a passenger one, significantly reducing capacity.

January 20

On 31/12/2023 at 21:34, adb968008 said:

I wonder, if Chilterns Mk3’s could be a useful lifeline to wcrc… sliding door, cdl fitted, retention tanks all done and ready

Certainly would do the job on many S&C jobs etc, which is the bulk of the none-WHL work… theres at least 2 x10 rakes +5 spares there they could get, even take the DVTs and put generators in etc.

From what I've read of WCR, they could probably still manage to fall foul of the regulations even with these

January 20

On 23/12/2023 at 23:19, rodent279 said:

Someone on RMWeb, forget who, posted words to the effect that every safety rule/clause/law was found at the bottom of a bucket of blood.

The other version of that quote is;

Remember, lad, all those rules are written in blood

January 13

Yes that's right, to move a single power car you'd simply uncouple and put the ETS on.

Even moving sets around on Heaton depot, we'd still have the ETS turned on.

Thanks Derek, for your comments on my career.

I did actually, get on HSTs right from the start on the East Coast in 78 as a secondman, as at first at Gateshead we had some turns to Edinburgh with an HST one way, but a steam heated set the other, so a secondman was needed for the boiler - although 2 drivers for HST running most main line drivers then were ex steam drivers who'd then learned the diesels as drivers, so hadn't learned the heating boilers.

Then, at Gateshead, we needed to learn the HST as 'passed men' in order to cover the ecs and Heaton depot turns. From being made driver in 86, and on the spare link, l started getting regular main line turns with them, and then from our depot (by then Newcastle) sectorisation in 90 l was fortunately the on Intercity, so enjoyed the last year of full HST ECML operation before we got the 91s. Following privatisation l went through all the ECML franchises, leaving in late '19 as the HSTs were also leaving.

These days, you wouldn't even think of showing visitors around the depot, never mind giving them a cab ride 'around the bridges', you were fortunate there, changed times indeed.

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