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AVS1998

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  1. The beginnings of a new project just to keep me ticking over;
  2. We have paint! I'm afraid the lighting in my room isn't very good, but hopefully against a lighter background you can see the slight difference between GWR and SECR lakes. I definitely prefer the GWR shade, myself - I might reserve this for chronologically older stock, once I've built it, for a bit of variety. There's not much to report on the clerestory, really, just much more sanding and filling, rinse and repeat. That got me to a stage where I was happy to prime (I couldn't sand much more, the body sides were getting very thin where the roof clips on), and so into a grey primer the car went. Really I should have gone for red, but I haven't got any to hand and I didn't want to buy anything new just yet. I brush-painted the body in two coats of Phoenix's GWR Lake, 1912-22, and then followed up with a quick matte black for the trussing, buffers and sundry other parts. Then this evening I was going to try and do some of the lining and lettering tonight, but the transfers I dug out of my stash are quite old and fragile - so old that the PULLMAN fascia transfer isn't in one panel, as it is by Fox and HRMS, it's separate letters you have to cut out then stick in place according to a spacing chart (what makes that even more complicated is Pullman faffed about with said spacing a lot, changing it at least twice that I know of, and on a short car, that's a challenge!) They're Woodhead, if anyone was curious - must be fairly old, at least from the late 90s. Nearly there, at any rate. In other news, I fitted all the remaining panelling to the two GER brakes yesterday. Initially cut too long and too deep, I then trimmed it to the correct height, length, and sanded the sides equal on a flat sheet of sandpaper. The dado rail was added in plastic rod, too, I'm not sure of the gauge but it looks right to my eye. Ventilator locations were also marked out in pen. A light grade sanding was done to remove any residual glue or furring, and to chamfer the door-ends of the panelling, just to make it look a little neater. Hopefully a coat of primer, once the vents are in, will bring the bodies together and let me see what I'm really working with. - Alex
  3. Some round buffers were grabbed from my stash, I think I salvaged these from a wrecked luggage van kit, and glued into the slots under the vestibule (if anyone's seen the vestibule ends of a Dublo/Wrenn Pullman car, you know there are slight recesses where the buffers are seated into the chassis and covered by the car body). As the car would be running, in a corridor set with the birdcage brakes and other such coaches. A paper mock gangway was added to assess buffer and ride height, and I wasn't very happy with how things were going, so I swapped out the 14mm wheel sets in the bogies for 12mm, and immediately everything looked far better. The car's Triang-originated vertical challenges were remedied. Below the buffers I added a strip of thick plastic card (not sure of the gauge) to reinforce the join and also add enough material for adding couplings at a later date. More filling was added around the vestibule graft seams and on the infilled windows, which I think are almost there - I'm wary of filling and sanding too much more, as I did experience a little breakage of the uppermost bodyside when removing the clerestory earlier today. I'm tempted to make up thin layovers for the doors to extend them vertically and make them more like the remodelled doors provided by Pullman during the refit; As I keep saying, it'll never be a perfect model, but it'll be good enough for me until I find confidence to scratch-build. Someone did a marvellous job in the SECR Society's modeller's gazette of these cars and the Folkestone ones, constructed from wood and card, I believe. Of course, that door illustration demonstrates that the fascia isn't the right shape either, but at this point, I don't know if it's something worth trying to 'fix'. If it looks good enough in a train, then I'll be happy with it until a later date.
  4. Another small update on the clerestory car this evening; much filling has been done to try and remove as many of the file scars as possible, it's taking time, but I'm getting there. I decided to check the ride height again and compare it to the actual prototype - would you believe the model is only 1mm overscale at the moment? It's sat on the wheel treads at present, which makes me think I'd need to use 12mm wheels with suitable spacers to bring the ride height up to scratch, but I'm actually rather pleased with that! For bogies I'm torn between caving in and using either GWR American bogies or 8' Fox ones from somewhere, or, as seen in this thread, HOn3 bogies which look to be the right sort of size and style. I did compare the Bachmann narrow gauge bogies with the Gilbert designs, they're not quite the same but will do from afar. Besides, as and when this car is retired I can recycle them on another Pullman model. Once I'm finished with the filler and sanding, I need to source a new red primer and fit the buffer beams. I was thinking of just using the Keen Pullman spares I have, with SECR buffers in the provided space, but forming new blank ones out of thick plastic card and fitting proper SECR pattern buffers is also an option. The original interior got hacked up and respaced to fit the new window arrangement, and just had a quick spray in a green car rattle can. I can't remember what shade, off the top of my head. Looks nice inside though. To the left, the GER brakes are progressing very slowly. I intend to get all the planking done before the middle of September, and any filling that needs doing. Fitting the roof details would be excellent, too.
  5. Hi Ray, yes, I do have a copy of the Constance volume, much-dog-eared at this point. The twelve-wheel cars, aside from the elusive brakes, are the only cars suitable to be reproduced in Lake. If Hornby decided to produce the 1910-14 cars, I'm sure they'd prove very popular, and they also were long-lived in the livery. Thanks Ray, I'm glad that people are still discovering this thread!
  6. I did think about that, but on the real Gilberts the door windows were in line with the saloon windows. I don't know if I could extend the doors up neatly enough to do it justice. They also didn't recess in like a conventional Pullman. Quirks of being a non-Pullman to begin with, I suppose. As it stands, this car will only run with pre-group stock anyway, never Pullmans, so I'm not too fussed. It's only an impression of a prototype, ultimately. What I should have done, I suppose, is cut away the body ends on the car where the clerestory is supported and fitted the vestibules higher up. You live and you learn. If I'd had a Railroad K type, I think their doors are bigger, which might have looked more in proportion. Never mind! With a quick flash of primer it's apparent I've a lot of filling to do in places, the windows still need more work and I also need to buff out the scratches from the file, but it's shaping up nicely. I'm not too convinced about the windows at the right-hand side - I might cut those together, too, and rethink the interior layout.
  7. Hello everyone, it's been a while. In the heat of this afternoon, whilst tidying my room, I rediscovered my Triang clerestory Wild West carriage that I had planned to bash into a facsimile of a Gilbert/Pullman car. After a lot of consideration I came to the conclusion it would never be an accurate model, but that wouldn't stop me having a go at it anyway, for a bit of fun. I'd already marked out the bogie centres and the trussing placement, which was useful as I had enough spare 7mm handrails to form those. My next task was to modernise the car, as Pullman chose to with the SECR's club cars, by cutting through the window pillars to elongate them in a contemporary Pullman body style. Also added at this time was the Pullman matchboarding below the window. A battery box and gas tank were also glued into place, just to fill the space a little. Two end windows were left, one to be filled in on either side, to form the pantry/kitchen and lavatory. Remembering I had some Wrenn spare bodies, I cut the vestibules away and filed them down until they fit the space at each end. They've been glued into place now, but will need some minor reinforcement with plastic sheet and then filler adding. I think I'll also add a dado rail/waist rail in half-round plastic rod (once I find it) to tidy up the seam of the planking. The windows still need to be filed neat, and the planking tidied up along the bottom of the body shell. Filling the lavatory/pantry window shouldn't be too hard on each side, as I in-filled with the window pillar cut-offs. Overall, I'm fairly happy with the project so far, it isn't perfect or accurate by any means but it captures the essence of the cars, which is what I was aiming for. That last photo definitely emphasises how much lower the cars were than a conventional Pullman, though - unless that's just the Wrenn vestibules creating a strange visual effect. Still, as I say, I'm fairly pleased with the results so far.
  8. Has anyone successfully managed to remove the body and get it back on? I removed mine to attach the detailing (less fiddly then, I find), but I can't get the body back on and the DCC blanking plate is being a real pain in the proverbial. The socket itself sits in its own pocket in front of the motor, but then is too long to slide into the boiler. If I don't do that, then the wires get too bulky around the motor to slide in. I've been leaving the blanking plate off altogether, it's just ridiculous how you'll get it sat in the rails in the smokebox only for the too-short wiring loom to tank it back out again when you come to position the chassis for pushing home. I'm exhausted with this model. When I tried reassembling it the first time, the glue was so weak the cab interior and roof fell off. What do I do? The manual is useless. EDIT: I'd been trying to do the bloody thing for two hours, then on the fluke of a different angle, the damn thing clicked together. Suffice to say, I won't be dismantling this model again anytime soon if I can help it.
  9. Also a very valid point which I expect the article author hadn't taken into consideration. It was just something I found interesting to consider. But you're quite right, the Stirlings were still in their prime, so it would be fruitless to replace them so early on.
  10. Good evening all, Just a quick post regarding something I found in a newspaper archive that's got me thinking, especially since I received my Rails/Dapol D class. From the Saturday 20 April 1907 edition of the Hastings St Leonards Observer, the author of the article, Hastings and the SER, suggests that whenever they have enquired as to why 'powerful express engines' can't be used on the route (And by that I am assuming the author means the D and E classes), the correspondent replied by saying the turntable at Hastings was too small. Now, I believe that the turntable at the time was 42' (later extended to 45'?), and so therefore was much inadequate to turn these locomotives, hence the reliance on the older Stirling designs, and possible usage of LCDR M series engines, too. This explains the profusion of Stirling designs in photos of Hastings trains, along with the occasional M3 spotted at the station, too (I believe these were on Brighton through services from Ashford, due to their dual-braking). It's interesting to me, as often when the D and later L classes are discussed they're noted for their work on the Hastings line as well as on the Kent Coast trains, so for them to not be able to be used so early on in their career on a 'prestige' route seems odd?
  11. Apologies in advance for the messy dresser, my bedroom at my parents' house is rather small and I haven't got much storage space for my models! My D class arrived today, and I'm really very happy with it. Once it's had some real coal, the details fitted and some weathering, it'll be dandy.
  12. Payment for my grey example was taken today, so I expect to see in the next week. After the disappointments some people have had with livery application, I'm praying that even grey is too simple to be cocked up...
  13. Well good morning to you all from dreary London of all places. As some of you will know, I've had to undergo a personal medical intervention that's been a long time coming. I'm recovering slowly, and feeling far better than I expected to. By the time I'm home on Sunday, I'll be on full time rest and recuperation, so I don't know how much modelling I'll get done, but I'll certainly try to chime in on threads and updates from time to time, and with any writings I may have done (I've a few small ideas for my dissertation I may try and do some drafts for in the meantime). Thank you all for your support, both personally and with my railway academia, it means a huge amount and I'm glad to have such a supportive community around me.
  14. Coming from the SE&CR, according to a 1913 timetable, Cardiff, Newport and Swansea Town could be reached on an SE&CR ticket, but would require changing trains at Reading, Bath and Cardiff. Not the easiest of routes, and no through coach, either. I'm sure I've read of through SE&CR coaches, though, and I'm also positive I've heard of a Cardiff - Brighton/Eastbourne train that operated from just before 1910, possibly?
  15. After doing a little more reading about the removal of the car, it seems that area of Selsey is being redeveloped (despite much local protest), necessitating the removal of the railway carriage homes. Whether that's the case for all of them is anyone's guess, but if it were, then I rather like the notion that the cars go to local heritage lines for restoration, even if only as static exhibits. For instance, the ex Folkestone and Hastings cars that have survived could be clustered at Robertsbridge when the RVR and KESR are linked, and that could be an exhibit of the Hastings and Folkestone car trains, and any Pullmans to the Bluebell or Mid-Hants, showcasing Pullman history on the LBSC and later Southern to the resorts and ports. It would give these artefacts a third life and use, and be a useful exhibition of Victorian and Edwardian luxury railway sensibilities that aren't commonly seen in the UK. However, this is most definitely an expensive pipe dream that is unlikely to actually go anywhere, unfortunately. Of course, I may be wholly wrong and the carriages might not need removing at all. At any rate, it's a situation to keep an eye on.
  16. Something different today, coming to you from Petworth! The 1906 car, Princess Ena, of the last American-built batch, has been moved to the Old Hotel site for restoration and installation as additional hotel rooms, according to the Hotel's Facebook page, and the British Pullman Facebook group, also. I can't quite fathom out which bogies the car is sat on currently (I believe there's a pair of six-wheel bogies in Scotland, ex Cambria, burned out in an arson attack in 2000), but it's amazing to see a car that I thought would forever be a dwelling back on the rails after ninety-odd years. Could this see more railway carriage homes being removed from their sites in Selsey and other places and returned to railway use? It's a pity the car is unlikely ever to be hauled again, it would be a unique example of pre-1923 Pullman history in motion (sleeping/day car Balmoral excepted), one that I would definitely pay good money to see and experience.
  17. Indeed, it's an excellent range and their transfers are a joy to use - even if the car name I used for a project turned out to be non-existent... And yes, Linny's right, it's a cartouche the name sits in.
  18. Hi David, I tend to buy second-hand transfers or bulk lots when I can (I've got friends who often point them out to me for my stash), so I'd say I probably use a fair mix of Fox and HMRS, but find the latter somewhat easier, though I do encounter the problems you do. I've got some PC Transfers Pullman samples, but they're really very, very old and I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. Just an interesting one to have in the collection. I did this on my original Pullman brake build, but I didn't want to have to go through all the hassle of finding donors, cutting parts etc for this project, and reusing the original mounting bosses on the underframe made more sense. I just need to order the right size screws and washers this time! Though I also need to query eBay and PayPal as I've been charged three times for one order of screws despite having returned and been refunded for them... How odd. Populating the underframe is an odd one, I'm trying to follow other brakes I've seen online and also photos of the prototype where possible but the equipment isn't always clear as to what it is. Either way, I hope the modeller who they're intended for likes the end result. In other news, I took delivery of my copy of LBSCR Carriages Volume 4 on Wednesday and I was very impressed with the breadth of detail Ian offers - congratulations to him and the contributors! The Pullman chapters in particular were fascinating, I'm eager to read it in more detail when I have time (I'm in hospital at the end of next month so that's an ideal opportunity) - Alex
  19. I vaguely remember dropping in on the carriage works at Tenterden a couple of years ago and bumping into someone I used to attend the Hastings club with, and asking what colour they used for the SE&CR livery. Pretty sure I was told it was Craftmaster's China Red, but it might have been something else. The Bluebell's shade is taken from HMRS and Phoenix research I think (or have I got that the wrong way around? The paint company following the Big Railway research? I'm tired...), and their findings from restoring SE&CR carriage bodies, with the paint fragments from door jambs and other non-UV exposed parts of the structure. Personally, I think it's too dark, but we've been here a thousand times before. Like you say, the fading and deterioration occurs at different rates so it isn't something I'm too concerned about. I think unified shades on a pre-BR railway look really odd. I vary my Maunsell olive for that reason.
  20. It was the Monk Bridge ironworks, a rather small smelters served by the Midland Railway directly by the looks of things; https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Immonk31.jpg https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Monk_Bridge_Iron_Co https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/429044/433074/13/100430 I used to walk down the canal and river paths as a bairn and look through the railings, trying to work out what it was - thanks for stirring the memories of that! - Alex
  21. I will be using a red primer, yes - I've got a pound shop one I need to use up, really. It's more brown than red, but still useable. I'll have to look at getting a truer red primer. And I agree, I like this example of SE&CR lake above, it's more 'right' to my eye (and I see the correct lake-painted Mansells, too - a feature a lot of modellers seem to skip). The carriage on the right does look very good, perhaps a worn-in SE&CR livery option? As I say, I don't mind having 1001 lake shades running around, I think it looks more interesting than the same old paint tin. Incidentally, I've just finished detailing the Kirk Maunsell underframes, they'll be due for a matte black spray soon.
  22. I took delivery of my Phoenix order today, and immediately set to work comparing my tin of SECR to the new GWR 1912 lake; The first photo being taken in direct sunlight. This was under a white light. I think I do prefer the GWR shade, it looks more 'right' to my eye (I've never liked the Bachmann shade) and it looks very close to the Bluebell SECR carriages when viewed in the sun. The proof of the pudding will be when these paints are tried over a red primer and lined out, I suppose. But ultimately, I'm fairly happy with mixed and matched shades, I don't see the point in trying to colour-match everything for an item of stock over a century old. So long as I'm happy with it, it's a non-issue. I've also ordered the Worsley Works sides for the E. 95 brake (after much confusion on my part. I wanted the sides but didn't realise the droplights and vents weren't included as details on that etch, they're a separate etch sheet). I'm actually looking forward to building it, I don't expect it to be too difficult, being flat sides. And I can pre-paint them, too, before fitting. - Alex
  23. That Conti is looking tasty, Jack! I'm jealous! I think there is supposed to be an overhang; on Wainwright designs the body overhung the chassis by an inch, sometimes a little more, so I expect it to be the same scenario here? And it looks like you had the same idea I had, I was awfully tempted to bid on the Paddlebox, too, but had the same hesitation you did of 'how do I make it fit?'. My justification (at least for my time period) would have been a trial of the class as a mixed-goods on the SE and Brighton mainlines, though it's obviously too heavy for that. Alternatively, the class did work on cross-country trains, so I've read, in their later lives, and oftentimes on Bournemouth expresses - Dover to Bournemouth through service, anyone? Though I believe the service had been curtailed by around 1935. Hmm. You'll figure it out. What a great buy, though. - Alex
  24. I don't want to drag the livery debate up again, but I've made reference to a few volumes in other threads on the shade debate; Gould, p. 11: -"by 1901 Chatham stock was being painted the 'standard colour' of that on the SE section. The 1901 livery was stated to be "rich purple lake lined finely in gold". [...] The "rich purple lake, fine-lined with gold" appears to have been the same colour as that used by the SER. [...] About 1910/12 carriages started to be painted in a light maroon or red-brown shade with gold lining. [...] in 1916 coaches began to be repainted in umber brown, said to be indistinguishable from that used by the LBSCR. By 1919 the only vehicles still in lake were Pullman cars and the Royal train stock". O. S. Nock, p. 133: - "the carriage livery was a rich dark lake, as near as makes no matter to the colour used by the Great Western between the two" chocolate and cream" periods. When new the SECR coach roofs were white, and the striking affect was enhanced by use of scarlet roof boards on all the principal expresses. ". I've ordered a tin of Phoenix GWR 1912 to compare it to their own Chatham - I expect it might be close. After all, lining, light and scale do much to alter a perception of colour. C.H. Ellis, Railway Carriages in the British Isles, 1830 to 1914, 1965, pp. 47-8, : [on the 1851 State Saloon] ''It was painted purple lake offset by crimson''; pp. 74-5 [on the 1870s suburban stock] ''These S.E.R. vehicles were painted chocolate below the waist, and pinkish-buff above, a style closely followed by the London and South Western from about the end of the seventies, though with umber below instead of chocolate''. Interesting short hints toward earlier liveries? Attributed to the South Eastern & Chatham Railway Preservation Society; "SECR passenger stock was originally all over dark red lined in yellow. The red was actually 'madder lake', slightly darker than the Midland Railway maroon. During the First World War the coaches changed to an orangy brown called 'raw umber' and non passenger coaching stock probably bore a similar colour but with no, or simplified, lining. [...]'' Hughes, R.C., notes from a talk to the HMRS, SECR Society archives, 1967; [1850s coaches, first class, second and third] '' Externally the body was given two coats of oil lead colour, then stopped up and left for three days to harden, after which it was given a third coat. Then came three coats of brown paint on the lower panels, the upper panels getting three coats of black in the old stage-coach tradition. [...] Three coats of varnish were applied. [...] By 1863 the upper panels were being painted a light salmon pink colour while the lower panels had officially become crimson lake - on vehicles of inferior class however they were still brown. [...] Mansell retired at the end of January 1882 and William Wainwright came down from Derby to be the new occupant of the Carriage Superintendent's house at no. 1 Alfred Villas. [...] Wainwright [also] abolished the pinkish colour on the upper panels (described by Ahrons as ''an unhealthy-looking flesh tint'') and from 1883 all carriages were painted a uniform shade'' - the crimson lake outlined. Interestingly, the paint recommended to modellers in carriage kits seems to suggest a very purple, almost claret, shade; Mallard Models S.E.C.R. 51' brake 3rd instructions: PAINTING S.E.C.R. Body .... Sovereign purple lake, panels outlined gold (use yellow) (Also no longer available. The closest I found was Winsor and Newton, and it's very purple) Roof ... White or grey Underframe Black Lettering Gold (use yellow) Roxey Mouldings 60' Birdcage Kits instructions: Livery Notes SECR 1912 - 17 Bodysides and ends - Dark Lake. Humbrol HN5 'Hull Red' is a good match. (No longer available, but quoted on boat forums as being similar to the contemporary shade 133, or Tamyia X-F 9) SECR 1917 - 23 Body colour was Dark Lake as before but was not varnished so thoroughly and has been quoted as 'brown', possibly due to weathering. As has been mentioned throughout the discussion, however, and as confirmed in the Summer 2020 and Spring 2021 editions of the SECR Society publication, Invicta, the shade we view as the end result is all dependent on the correct base being used - this likely being an iron oxide in earlier years, moving to opaque, natural reds and browns during the 1910s and certainly during the War in order to economise. Such natural dyes would often produce green tones, obviously cancelling out the majority of a red tone in the top layers of paint. The older SER lake livery was apparently painted over an aniline undercoat, transitioning to a cochineal-based primer undercoat in 1897, a product developed by Messers. Dockers of Birmingham. The paint was a substitute for vermillion shades, and was longer-lasting, resulting in longer stays between repainting or revarnishing (one assumes). Thankfully, the caveat of ''We'll never know what it looked like'' is finally given in this publication - it makes a change from the steadfast and assured descriptions of SER/SECR livery. Ultimately, we'll never really know accurately the colour that any railway vehicle wore, not unless we're modelling contemporary scenes. And I'm reasonably happy with that. I think that we can discuss ad infinitum the merits of a red undercoat or varnishing or anything else, but this detracts from the modelling somewhat, doesn't it? Anyway. Apologies, Guy, for dragging the subject up again, but I just wanted to point out that you can look at sources from across history and the only real connecting factor is the words within - constant mentions of 'lake' and 'crimson' or 'purple', 'like this', 'as near as makes no difference' all clouding the issue. Your SER set is looking stunning , and I hope I can learn the patience and maturity you have to return to projects when my skills have developed and my compulsion to complete something all at once has disappeared! Goodnight everyone. - Alex
  25. Some of you may remember I tried to patch-paint the E4 Linny sold me a while ago, but the varnish I used reacted badly with the paint. After several soaks in caustic soda, I finally took off the entire paint job, primed and sprayed the main component up in Rover russet brown (I usually use Vauxhall Brazil brown, as advised by https://www.mdmrc.org/paint-colours.html). Clearly, when I'd bought the can a few years ago, I'd been thinking of their recommendation for Pullman livery (note: I wouldn't recommend it for Pullman. I really wouldn't. Not unless you're modelling modern-day Pullman operations where the umber used is far more akin to milk chocolate and of an entirely different formula to avoid UV damage and greening), and used that absent-mindedly. What a mistake. Does the lady love milk tray? Yes. Is she happy with this rendition? Um... Less so. The darker shade(s) are Humbrol Pullman umber, matching the Vauxhall colour seen on the J1, which looks like it needs a good clean - and still needs transfers and other work! I think, by the time the E4 is numbered and given a really good weathering, it should hopefully blend things together enough to disguise the chocolate box livery currently worn. At least I can laugh about it. Also seeing paint today was the Toplight's underframe/end unit, and its roof, in matte black and white, respectively. The underframe and footboards need another seeing to, but I'm pretty happy with how it's turning out. After much digging, I'm pretty settled on the bogies for this coach now - 8' American seem right after all - so it's MJT or 247, it appears. They'll get ordered eventually. It's getting there though, back to a basic shell! - Alex
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