peterqd

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Hi Phil, thanks for giving me some things to consider. Firstly, the ply thickness. The basic baseboard is already finished, using 9mm birch ply on 22 x 47 PAR perimeter framing. The upper level hasn't been built yet, but the plan is to use 6mm birch ply on PAR spacer blocks. This will be cantilevered over the lower tracks and the blocks positioned to suit the layout (not the other way around). In order to maximise the headroom over the gradient track I can use 3mm or 4mm ply (or maybe even cardboard come to that) for a narrow area over the lower track only. Now to your questions: A Two levels: 1 The layout is on two levels in order to increase the number of separate tracks (and therefore operators) from 2 to 3. Also it gives a more definite break between urban and rural scenery. 2 Very good point about the hidden trackwork, it made me think carefully. The furthest hidden track is only about 100mm from the baseboard edge, so it shouldn't be too difficult to rescue any derailed trains. The loop nearest the edge is intended to be the re-railing point for all stock on the complete layout. However, I'm going to see whether it's feasible to make the country station a removable section for lower track cleaning and access. 3 Originally the layout was designed to be controlled from the main line station side. This was before it was decided where the layout would go in the school, and when it transpired there is very little space, and that the layout needed to be either portable or hinged against a wall, I had to reverse it round in order to retain access to the hidden loops. You're right it will hide the main line station area to an extent, but the difference in levels is only 45mm so I don't think it's a major problem. I envisaged the main line station on a bridge over the tracks so it will be more visible, but the kids will decide that. B: Wall mounted and hinged: 1 There is going to be a 6mm ply surround about 175mm high fixed to the edge of the baseboard on all four sides (with an opening to access the hidden loops). The ply will be flush with the underside of the PAR framing and project above the layout about 125mm, so it forms an open box. This will be deep enough to protect all the scenery, and also prevent anything falling on the floor. The surround stiffens the baseboard and stops it twisting and flexing, and I envisage it will be painted to form a backdrop. 2 The surround will be sufficiently tough to support strap hinges bolted through it. I think 4 hinges will be OK. It might need stiffening along the top edge and I have some aluminium angle to screw on if necessary. When it's hinged up it will be secured to the wall, probably with a padlock and chain! 3 Yes it's going to be a PITA to take down and set up. If only there was sufficient space for a permanent layout. Hinging it is better than completely portable though. 4 There will always be at least 2 adults on hand to help raise and lower the board. The bare baseboard as it stands is surprisingly light - around 15kg.

David, many thanks for that. Since my last message I've read that in the early railway days there were many derailments involving trains tackling facing points. For this layout the main point is that the kids get enjoyment from operating the trains and constructing buildings and scenery. Reversing a whole train over a crossover, especially in the hidden section, would likely be more of a nightmare than worrying about operational conventions. Please see my answer to Phil below regarding the ply thickness and the need to hinge the baseboard. Good idea about a third controller! I do have another one they can use, an old H&M Clipper, dating from around 1984. It seems perfectly OK with modern locos, except that trains stall and jerk more often at slow speeds. So I think this is probably best used on the outer main line, leaving the dual controller in charge of the inner (suburban) track and the branch line, and this would be switchable. This is almost what I was planning anyway, but I'll need to give a bit more thought to the electrics - maybe I'll need another mimic panel. Edit: I've read on the forum that it's possible to bend the pin of a Seep motor into a crank, which offsets the motor about 20mm. I'm going to try it.

Thanks for the comments so far. Back to the drawing board! David, moving the point along is what I meant earlier. It's a relatively simple alteration but it doesn't gain very much. Much more useful is reducing the difference in levels. The 1 in 18 gradient was calculated on 60mm and I could reduce this in one or two ways. I allowed 12mm for the depth of the point motors beneath the top level, which are directly over the lower track. I could regain that by either rerouting the lower track or, better still, by offsetting the motors. I'll give that some more thought. I'm intending to lay the track on Trackbed foam, and the height from the baseboard to the top of a loco is around 34mm. Ignoring the point motors above, if I have 5mm clearance and I use 3mm ply for the top board over the lower track I can reduce the rise from 60 to 42mm, which would give a gradient of 1:26, and it would be even greater if I move the point as well. How does that sound? Other options are dispensing with the Trackbed in the hidden area and creating a "hump-back bridge" over the gradient rail. As I said earlier, the branch line is only for small and slow engines and very short, light trains - the heaviest freight will be a few churns of milk and some beer barrels! I designed the layout for LH running, except that branch line trains have to go against this for a short way, which is unavoidable with a reverse loop. But I wasn't sure about the direction of the crossovers. Did I get them wrong? It seemed logical to have them in the direction of travel, not to have to reverse over them. Rob, I did think about that when I was doing the planning. Raising the level of the main line station helps a bit, as I can lift the curved point at the foot of the main gradient a little. Sloping the top level down from the country station edge is definitely an option, but I decided against it as the sidings need to be level. That could be overcome fairly easily though.

Thanks, you're right about the gradient and I gave it a lot of thought when I was drawing the plan. The slope is 1 in 18. It's only going to be used by small tank engines pulling 2 small coaches or a few trucks at most. If a loco can't manage it then the gradient can be designated as downwards only. Other things are possible too, I could move the top point along a little or alter the level of the top section. One of the difficulties is that the clearance has to be 12mm greater than normal to allow for the under-board point motors. About the reversing loop, each of the gradients will be isolated at both top and bottom and powered by its own supply from the controller. Whilst the train is in either of these sections, the polarity of the main track will be reversed by a DPDT switch. I'm thinking about ways to stop the train if the polarity has not been set correctly.

Thanks for all the help so far. Sprung points is an interesting idea Brendan, I've never thought of that. For this layout I'd rather not limit the routes like that. Here's the layout proposed. The baseboard is now built and trackwork is about to start. I'd love to hear any ideas you have about it before I start. I don't know a lot about prototype conventions so please forgive any glaring errors and please put me straight. The rural area shaded blue is at high level and the green area is at baseboard level. The baseboard will be hinged on a wall (at the top of the plan) and the controllers and mimic panels are along the bottom edge, to each side of the hidden loops. One controller will be dedicated to the outer track at low level and the other to the branch at high level. The inner lower track and the gradients will be switchable to either controller. It's not intended to base the layout on any particular place, save that I was born at St. Helens on the Isle of Wight and I well remember the old station and yard on the branch to Bembridge, so I'm hoping the gradients will be OK for a little Terrier and a couple of 4 wheelers. The bulk of the rolling stock I have is GWR and my trainspotting days were spent at Southall and thereabouts, so the main line station will be of that ilk. As for the era, I haven't decided yet and it probably won't conform to history, but it will certainly be sometime in the steam age.

Thanks Cliff, that's exactly what I needed. And thanks everyone, now I'm ready to get started.

Thankyou Michael. I haven't seen that site before and there's a lot there to get me thinking, but probably not for this layout I think. And thanks Phil, that was what I was hoping to hear. The intention is that this layout will (in the main) be operated and scenically developed by 7-11 year olds, and I'm anxious to make it as simple and error-free to operate as possible, so it will be good old DC with mainly insulfrog pointwork. It will have CAB 2 control on two levels, with an inner section which can be switched to either controller. My principal concern is to avoid situations of potential train crashes/derailments as much as possible. I don't feel it's necessary to detect a train's position in this case, although I can think of lots of ways that could be useful. It's much more vital here to stop a train automatically it if it's heading for a crash, hence the idea of using insulated joiners to create a short length dead track in front of adversely-set points. I've only used probe and stud to operate point motors in the past, and the problem with that is it doesn't indicate which way the points are set, which makes it more difficult for kids to use - hence the idea of using LEDs. The need is to indicate which blocks are powered, even though the controllers are set to zero. I will be using momentary toggle switches this time, which do indicate the route set, but LEDs will be much better if I can work out how to wire them up. I would like to use the non-controlled 12v DC outlet from the controller, fed through the auxiliary switches on the point motors to each LED, but I'm no electronics expert and the issues of polarity and the resistors with LED's is beyond my ken. Best wishes Peter

Hello everyone, I'm Peter and this is my first post on the forum! I'm just about to start laying the track of a new N gauge layout which it is intended will be operated by youngsters as an introduction to proper model railways. The layout has two hidden passing loops to be used for train storage plus a platform loop, and I've got a couple of questions for you to answer please. In order to avoid locos crashing into points set against them, is it a sensible idea to put insulated joiners at the appropriate places to isolate the onward track to the points or is there a better way? Also I'd ideally like to have LEDs on a mimic panel indicating the route set by all the points. How should I wire these and what resistors are needed? Very many thanks Peter