Lambeg Man

Oh yes, but this time (thanks to your timely advice JB), no black underframes! My previous attempts at weathering were pretty unsightly, hence the repainting programme. The above were found in a shoe box in my mother's loft circa 1984. I think I originally painted the blue ones a green colour to match the other two.

I recently decided to clean the old paint off my collection of goods wagons and vans, preparatory to re-painting the whole lot to higher standard than before. Using 'Model Strip' to clean them took many back to their original manufacturers' finish. When I examined the wagons seen in the photo's below I found they were all 'Triang' models. The five blue vans were 'insul-fish' (two originally with white roofs), I then realized that these nine vehicles represented all that remained from a layout that I had from about 1968 onwards. Accordingly they are all in excess of fifty years of age, yet following a repaint will re-enter service on "Lisburn North". This left me wondering if anyone has got any older model stock still running in 2019 in regular use on their layout?

Jim has a great knowledge of those days. The use of an AEC car to shunt Grosvenor Road was certainly news to me. I wonder what the legal situation around Grosvenor Road was after 1965 when the UTA ceased running their own goods trains? The only trains using the depot after 1966 were CIE goods trains from Dublin and Dundalk powered of course by their DE locomotives. Yet on arrival UTA/NIR appear to have had the responsibility for shunting and marshalling the CIE wagons in the yard itself, while presumably the 'train' engine sat by. Thinking about CIE '141's operating to Belfast in the late 1960's, I did one morning see a Belfast bound 'local' service at Lambeg formed by an NIR 3-car AEC set. However it was being hauled by a CIE '141', presumbably because of engine problems.

Jim's reply is very interesting. Thanks for posting it up Andy. Apropos my cab ride in the MPD set with Andy Rushe driving, I also recall the following. It was a very sunny summer evening. Andy was sat in the driver's seat which was on the right hand side of the cab and I was standing looking out of the left hand front window. As we bore down on Balmoral I could see that the oncoming colour light signal was red. I glanced over at Andy to see what his reaction was. There was none as the low sun behind us meant he could not see the signal clearly. I chose to say nothing, after all Andy was a professional railway and it was not for me to comment on his driving. Past the signal we hammered, whereupon Andy glanced at me and said "What colour was that?". "Red" says I. On we sped. "Aw we'll see what the next one's doing." said Andy................

Yes John, I agree entirely with your comment. Richard Whitford's photo in the Journal shows the only AEC set I've seen where ALL three cars are in the blue/cream livery, yet the leading car and the driving trailer intermediate are in 'narrow band' livery, the trailing car (No. 118) is in the 'wide band' version.

I doubt they moved under their own steam John, as they had lain out of use for over three years. Possibly an early job for the then new '0-6-0' diesel shunter or of course No 28 (the 'Harlandic'). Andy, if you look at page 174 in Diesel Dawn, the top picture is mis-captioned. The location is Gt. Victoria Street carriage sidings and the lead unit is one of the pair of non-corridor MPD power cars sent to the GN section "for ballast workings,etc.". In fact they did a lot of passenger work covering for failed AEC's. I once travelled in this unit's driving cab on a return run (empty diesel) from Lisburn to GVS. The driver was Andy Rushe and the guard was Dan Gribben. We went along at a fair pace. I also remember getting to Lambeg station one winter morning in possibly 1968 and seeing an unusually large crowd waiting for the train. An enquiry with the halt 'porter' (Tommy Morrison) revealed that the two previous Belfast services had not run due to stock shortage. Eventually the 2-car MPD unit turned up (the guard was Andy Lawlor) and stopping at all stations to Belfast, he did a sterling job cramming everyone into the two car unit. Needless to say most people were standing in the compartments and even the cabs were stuffed full. Another regular MPD working was a 2-car set comprised of one power car (in UTA green and facing Belfast) and a side corridor driving trailer (in the NCC section maroon/white 'regional' livery). For a period in 1968 this set regularly worked the 17.15 BF-LBN local. This latter carriage may be the second one in the Diesel Dawn picture.

I think No. 111 was 'plundered' for spares to keep some of the others going. Hence the reason it is shown sitting at the back of the water tower in Parting Shot. Jim Edgar may be able to shed more light. I recall a 16.30 Belfast-Lisburn local "huddle" in the concourse of GVS (St. Malachys and Inst boys - yeh we did speak back in the day) when Jim highlighted the problems with the lack of AEC 'spares'. The other issue I am studying at this moment in time is not only which Railcars, but also the trailer cars, got the 'wide' band livery, and those which (like No. 111) got the narrower mid-height 'suburban' livery.

Errrrrr............... Posted May 23rd: "By the way Hunslet, post 1965 the only goods services running on THIS actual section of line were from Dundalk to the Grosvenor Road depot and back. In late 1967 arrivals at the latter were at 06.15 and 21.15, departures were at 13.35 and 22.10. The Dundalk-Derry night freights reversed in Lisburn station. There were also a couple of 'Q' paths for overloads." Wakey, wakey John!

A couple of very small pointers Andy, which I am hopeful you may find of interest. The No. 77 Waterworks-Gasworks service/bus route was a very early "Troubles" casualty. It ceased running very soon after the August 1969 riots/disturbances and as far as I am aware, to date has never resumed. May I also make a couple of minor corrections to JHB's valued input. MED railcars appeared on regular services on the ex-GN section in 1972, 4 years before the reopening of the Central line. MED sets had visited prior to this. See photo's in Parting Shot and Irish Railway Traction and Travel. MPD's were frequent visitors and a 3-car set was formally transferred over in 1967. It stayed until 1969. UG class No. 48 (UTA number) was transferred to York Road in 1966, but did little work and was scrapped there in 1969. UG class No. 49, together with SG3 class No. 37 (UTA numbers) sat static in the sidings (along with Railcar No. 105), at the throat of Grosvenor Road depot from 1967 until 1970 when they were both hauled out to the remains of Adelaide yard for scrapping. Again, see photo's in Parting Shot. Like Kirley, I also find your photo's very atmospheric. Well done.

Another couple.......... I only remember seeing a 2-car AEC set once on a summer evening local service and the Driving Trailer was definitely facing Belfast. The power car was obviously not one with a train heating boiler, but as it was summer this would not have mattered. The UTA got both of the GNR(B) built AEC Driving Trailers and the one that faced away from Belfast was by 1967 in the 'blue/cream' livery - see Richard Whitford's photo's in the IRRS Journal. Thanks Andy, quite pleased with the progress. With hindsight I wish I had left the base boards 2' wide instead of narrowing them to 15". I think the right hand side in the above photo (which is the front of the layout) would benefit from being another 3" wider and the extra depth would have given Wallace Park a better back vista. I remember years ago at an exhibition with a friend. We were admiring a large GWR layout that was basically a double line junction (no station) set in the countryside. The boards were about 3' wide and the amount of non-railway scenery was massive. When I mentioned how effective the sheer quantity of landscape was, my friend countered "We could all do something like that, but first we would have to get over the urge to cover every square foot of baseboard with track." With this layout I have made the reverse mistake in thinking "Oh the track will hardly take up any room"........

Thank you for that Andy.

Some photo's of recent progress with the scenery. Next bit is to get the signals working. Lots more trees needed to finish off the back scene. Two car AEC set, power car in UTA 'blue/cream' livery pushing a "mule" leaves for Belfast while a 3-car BUT set for Portadown approaches. View west from from the Belfast Road bridge. PW department have recently done a bit of work on the down line. By the way Hunslet, post 1965 the only goods services running on THIS actual section of line were from Dundalk to the Grosvenor Road depot and back. In late 1967 arrivals at the latter were at 06.15 and 21.15, departures were at 13.35 and 22.10. The Dundalk-Derry night freights reversed in Lisburn station. There were also a couple of 'Q' paths for overloads.

Simon, Who were "Gardner"? Were they a British company? I have come across the name "Gardner Edwards" (producers of Railcars in the 1930's), quoted somewhere as being a Belfast based company?

Ah yes, I had not spotted that before now (the air duct). The other thing to bear in mind was that both Railcars 'A' and 'B' were designed by George Glover (a steam man by training), whereas the later alterations (roof mounted radiators, etc.) show the hand of his successor George Howden (a civil engineer by trade). Of the top of my head I can not remember exactly where I saw it (the film clip), but I will have a hunt and let you know. Again from my own notes: In the late 1920’s the CDRJC had introduced a number of petrol driven Railcars. Two of these, No.4 (1928) and No. 6 (1930) were produced by the Dundalk Works. In 1930/31 the GNR produced the Committee’s Railcars No’s 7 and 8, the first diesel engined Railcars to operate in the British Isles. They each had a Gardner 6L2 diesel engine driving through a Thorneycroft gear box, with the bodywork built by O’Doherty’s of Strabane. Reporting the apparent success of these cars in a letter to the GNR(I) Board dated November 1931, Glover goes on to promote the idea of providing similarly powered vehicles for the parent system. The letter was reproduced in the IRRS Journal No. 149 and bears detailed examination as it gives a good indication as to how the GNR’s own Railcar programme began. The first thing that seems to have escaped previous commentators’ notice is that the proposed “Light Diesel Railcar” (which was the subject of the letter) was clearly not Glover’s first idea as to the type of Railcar the GNR(I) needed. The letter starts; “Previous discussions regarding Diesel-Electric Units have been concerning vehicles of a heavy Railway type, weighing approximately 48 tons, of 180-250 HP and capable of hauling a 25 ton trailer at a speed up to 55 miles per hour. The cost of such Units would be anything from £7,500 to £10,000.” Such a concept goes beyond anything on the CDRJC that Glover had up then been involved with. So where did this initial idea for a broad gauge Railcar come from? Laurence Liddle has related how Glover went back to Newcastle upon Tyne most weekends, where it can be assumed he kept up contact with his former railway associates there. Interestingly in 1931 the Newcastle upon Tyne company of Armstrong Whitworth produced three Railcars as demonstrators, which were 60′ 0″ long bogie vehicles, powered by a diesel engine with electric transmission. They had the capacity for 60 passengers and a top speed of 65 mph. Each was intended to be capable of towing a trailer coach, but had a driving cab at each end to enable a quick turnaround when operating as a single unit. Did Glover view one of these units or did he even have the experience of travelling in one? Did he then consider that such a Railcar design might be suitable for the traffic needs of the GNR(I), for both main and subsidiary lines? The similarity between one of these Armstrong Whitworth cars and what the earlier GNR “discussions” focused on is strikingly noticeable. A GNR(I) might have been? The third Railcar produced by Armstrong Whitworth in 1931. – Copyright National Railway Museum However, given the general economic depression of the day, Glover must have known the GNR(I) directors would be reluctant to approve such a high capital outlay on what was after all something of an experimental vehicle. However he appears to use the earlier proposal as a bench mark to sell the cheaper £2,700 “Light Diesel Railcar” option to his directors. In the letter Glover went on to highlight three possible theatres of operation for a “Light Diesel Railcar”. The first was the Banbridge-Newcastle line outside the summer months and the second was the Armagh-Goraghwood branch, both of which sound eminently feasible. However the third proposed use was somewhat extraordinary for a vehicle not even built. Based in Belfast, he suggested that such a Railcar could head out at 07.45 to Dundalk, talking up the stopping places served by the current Belfast-Dublin morning express service. Having arrived in Dundalk, the Railcar would then run to Omagh via Clones, providing a midday service on the Irish North Western route that was then nonexistent. Reaching Omagh the Railcar would be used to provide a late afternoon stopping service to Dungannon. On reaching Dungannon it would have a trip up the Cookstown branch, from where it would then make its way back to Belfast on stopping services. This daily roster as proposed would have involved approximately 263 miles a day for an untested vehicle. Ambitious as this proposal was, giving significant improvements to service schedules and low operating costs, this appears to be something of a sales pitch to the company directors! In the outline drawing accompanying the article, the proposed car’s dimensions are 36′ 0″ long over body, 12′ 6″ high by 9′ 6″ wide. Seating is the same as the produced item at 32, but the body is shown made up of matchboard wooden panels, with four small folding doors in each corner and a three window front. The following year was to see both Railcars A and B built under George Glover’s superintendence. In the same year a more sophisticated articulated diesel Railcar was built for the CVR, also with a Gardner 6L2 engine. The traction unit for this car was built by Walkers of Wigan, but the GNR built the passenger bodywork at Dundalk. Any additional thoughts Simon? Regards Steve

Yes Simon, it is the only photograph I have seen of Railcar 'B'. It is also reproduced in Locomotives of the GNR(I) which likewise gives no date. However it it obviously pre-1940. I think we are looking at the non-engine end and the roof radiators are seen at the other end. I do not known which drawing you are looking at, but mine is a 'Works' drawing dated 1932, with "altered 4/1940" added. However the front and side profile in the upper half of the drawing show it already altered with the roof mounted radiators and a large waist level headlight mounted in the centre of each end. This feature is missing from the 'floor plan' in the lower half of the drawing, which shows the 1940 alterations, double doors replacing the single door we see in the photograph. There is a VERY brief clip of it in one of the Huntley film's, but again no date is given, so little is learnt from that. Regards Steve

Simon, I do not know if any of the following may be of any use to you, coupled to your own research, but here are my notes about both Railcar 'A' and 'B': Railcar A As built in 1932, the passenger compartment had one single door and one double door on each side and eight square shaped windows, which resembled the windows in contemporary AEC Regent I and Leyland Titan TD1 double-deck buses of the GNR. The Railcar and all subsequent diesel trains were painted in an attractive Oxford blue and off-white livery, a livery that was initially used on the GNR omnibus fleet. The interior of Railcar A as built, looking away from the engine end. Note the rather plush seating for Third class. – Photographer unknown Initially all were seats fixed (in 2+2 format) and facing towards the engine end. Heating was by using engine cooling water and an engine radiator with the “AEC” insignia was fitted at each end. The revised seating (3+2 format) of 1935-ish comprised of five rows of non-reversible seats facing in one direction and five rows in the other. In the 1936 coaching book the engine horsepower was noted lower than as built. It would be of interest to know the source of the drawings of Railcar A which featured in Locomotives of the GNR(I) and Diesel Dawn. The first shows the car with the post 1939 seating arrangement and with the AEC radiators still fitted. The latter appears to be the same drawing, but shows the car with the roof mounted radiators. Harry Wilson gives 12/37 as the date the AEC engine was replaced and one would have thought the radiator position would have been changed then. However, as the re-positioning of this feature on Railcar B took place in 1940, it may be that the alteration to A (with other work) was carried out in 1939. Railcar B On entering traffic in late 1932, like Railcar A, Railcar B returned a fuel consumption of 8 to 10 mpg. When built, again like Railcar A, it possibly had a radiator at each end (it certainly had at least one), but the only single published photograph (undated) of Railcar B shows it with a roof radiator. The post-1935 seating, unlike like that in Railcar A, was reversible. The roof mounted radiators may have been fitted as part of the 1940 re-engining, but there is a possibility that this exercise was carried out on both A and B at an earlier date. The re-engining may have coincided with the fitting of a separate small Ford engine to power the exhauster for the vacuum brakes and like Railcar A, a single door at the non-engined end was replaced with a double door and which explains the reduction of two seats. Heating was probably provided by using engine cooling water, but the 1940 drawing shows that a Clayton warm air heater (electrical) was fitted to this vehicle in the front bulkhead. The Railcar was initially based at Portadown and appears in 1930’s film footage arriving in Armagh. In the 1936 GNR(I) Coaching Book a number of six-wheeler carriages were noted as “For working with Railcar B”. By June 1943 it was working the Scarva-Banbridge branch service, when a brake failure caused a smash into the buffers at Banbridge station. The Railcar apparently suffered heavy damage to the engine and transmission. It was subsequently taken to Dundalk Works where it lay in damaged condition until 1946, when the engine and transmission were removed. As this was three years after the accident, presumably there may have been some thought given to repairing it. However, it was to be 1948 before the decision was taken to re-commission the body as a hauled coach. It was given the coaching classification L 16 and the running number 500 in the general coaching list. It retained the GNR blue/white “Railcar” livery. It is understood that, as altered to a hauled vehicle, this coach was deployed to bring and return Dundalk Works staff from stations and halts on the Dundalk-Ballybay section. ‘Mac’ Arnold notes October 1948 as the date for commission as a hauled vehicle and it appears it was withdrawn from traffic circa 1950. ‘Mac’ notes a final withdrawal date as being January 1955, which may be when it was scrapped.

Hi Simon, I am something of a student of GNR(I) Railcars and coaching stock. When you say that the end view did not match with the plan, may I point out the following about GNR drawings. When it came to recording alterations made to a vehicle on the 'Works Drawing', frequently only the 'floor plan' on the original drawing was shown altered by an overlay. Sides and ends were left unaltered on the drawing. I evidence this statement by referring you to the drawing for classification 'D 5' (Brake/First) as altered for the role of a BUT Railcar trailer in 1957. The floor plan on the amended drawing shows amongst other things, the installation of the train heating pant, the movement of the guard's compartment and the reduction of passenger compartments from four to three. However the side view and end on the same drawing are left unaltered. This caused our friend Kirley no end of problems when he was building his BUT trailer 'D 5', where, by way of example, the side view showed a window where there was in fact now a door. Silverfox Models appear to have fallen into a similar trap, whereby their model of a 'D 5' (from what I can make out from their own photograph) appears to be a 'D 5' as originally built in 1948, yet presented in a post 1956 GNR 'Railcar' livery, which an unaltered 'D 5' would never have worn. Railcar 'B' was badly damaged in 1943 in an accident at Banbridge. It was taken to Dundalk Works, where the repair decision was a long time in waiting. Eventually circa 1948, the engine and transmission were removed and it was altered to an Second Open hauled carriage. Could your drawing be a mix of the original build and the 1948 alteration? ========================================================================================================= Sorry, just found your other thread under CAD drawing and I now understand what the problem is. Unable to help with that one. Steve

Nice one Andy. Ah the No.77 Waterworks bus, now that does take me back! What is the origin of the uncompleted "UG"? An LMS 3F? (Sorry if you've covered this in the past). P.S. Have posted an AEC drawing in the "other place" that might interest you.

Thank you both to Hunslet and JHB for your kind comments. At present the three Railcar sets provided so well 22 years ago by Lima 33 are in dire need need of a "refurbishment". 1. 4-car 'BUT' NIR maroon/grey liveried "Enterprise" set - needs seating and glazing repairs 2. 4-car 'BUT' UTA 'green' liveried set needs seating and running repairs (the power bogie hates code 100 points) 3. 3-car UTA liveried AEC set needs several major repairs After remedial work on the above my plan is to add the following carriages to their respective "pools". BUT pool - A K 15 open Second in UTA 'green' on one side and UTA 'blue/cream' on the other. Two more dummy '700' cars, UTA 'blue cream' on one side of the two, UTA 'green' and NIR livery on the other side. AEC pool - An L 12 Brake/Second open, in UTA 'green' on one side and UTA 'blue/cream' on the other. As trains are only viewed from one side on my layout, the respective "pools" should allow a gentle mix of Railcars and trailers to make the eventual "parade" more interesting.

One for Hunslet....... A 4-car BUT set early 1968 heading a Portadown local.... A '900' power car still in UTA green, the spare Brake/First (began life as an F 16 composite) just out of the paint shop in NIR livery, an F 16 former composite 'reduced' to an All Second, still in UTA green and lastly the first '700' to gain the NIR livery....

A "Lima 33" product from 1996!

Hello everyone, Some photo's of very recent progress. Close up of the '900' car of the 1967/69 NIR Enterprise set Irish goods train, no two wagons the same. Ditto The 1967-69 NIR 4-car BUT "Enterprise" set

Er, that's it, unless you want the opening hours for signal boxes and speed restriction pages?

One more to go!

Oh no, it will let me do it now..........