Possy92

As the title suggests, how long should my coal trains be? I know it depends on the loco at the front, so we'll say a loco similar in strength to a Black 5? (5F) I'm using mostly BR Diagrams 1/108, 1/109 and 1/100 (16T mineral wagons) plus some ex-private owner and 7/8 plank wagons (all unfitted basically) Would the length depend on whether the wagons were full or empty or would they be kept in fixed rakes of X amount for to and from journeys to various destinations? I know I'm being a bit vague but I want a typical representation of a coal train for the midland region - any other questions on my requirements please ask away. Cheers Andy

Hi all, I'll keep this question short and sweet! I've just built a Cambrian LMS Steel Mineral wagon, and wish to paint it. The era I'm modelling is 1960s - what colour would it have been (were it not covered in rust!) Initially they were painted LMS bauxite, but I assume they were later painted into Mineral wagon grey? (I want to do an ex-lms one if possible, so it would have the M prefix) I'm struggling to find any pics if I'm honest of any example... unless they didn't last into the 60s! Thanks for your help Cheers Andy

Thanks all for your help/discussions, it sounds like my hunch was correct with the fish vans being the bulk of the train at least! I bought this Bookazine - some useful information, mostly this half pic below in 1961 - which appears to have some normal vans, specifically, at least towards the back, I think, LMS 12t Van, The front of this train (not pictured here) has mostly the diagram 800/801, plus a conflat with an AF container. there seems to be a lot of the converted LNER types and a at least one (next to the LMS van) that hasn't been.

Hi all, There was a topic on here BC (Before Crash) with a similar title to the one above, and as interesting as it is, doesn't show any 60s fish trains, neither before the crash, and certainly not after!) Blood and custard also has a bit of info, but nothing of what I'm looking for: https://www.bloodandcustard.net/bluespot.html I'm looking at building a representation of a fish train towards the mid 60s, when fish traffic was in heavy decline. I've got one of the Larkin books, and although great for prototype pics, doesn't have any trains, rather individual wagons. I'm not too fussed on my trains origin, Aberdeen, Hull, Grimsby Fleetwood etc, but the latter would be better, but happy to compromise - I just want a representation of a fish train to run! Are there any books on fish trains? or anyone know a book with a good section on them? I'm assuming that the diagram 801 and 800 were the bulk of the wagons by then? with a few EX-LNER stragglers converted to the insulated type, plus the Conflat As with AF containers on them. (I realise that Fleetwood, if they did still move fish by rail in the 60s, is the M region, but Larkins Book has an 800/801 diagram van with E prefix at Preston. I realise that speed was the most important factor with Fish traffic, and regular vans were sometimes used to bulk out the train, but with rapid decline of fish on the rails, and less of them, that must have freed up more dedicated stock to run it.?) Apologies if I'm being vague, I'm just a bit lost! Cheers Andy

Whilst I wait on the new ballast to arrive, I figured I may as well work out how the backscene is going to work. Originally, I was going to have a diagonal track from the fiddle yard come out of the middle of the low relief "Horwich slices" I've made, but could not find any real life examples I could justify my diagonal track. I've decided instead to split the low relief in half, and have it as 2 parts of the works, double to fun! (I think) What I want to do with the backscene is have it stick out of the middle of the works, but that would block the track as the trains go through the middle, as per the real life example. My solution, create a "shelf" for the backscene to sit on, over the works, which will hide the fiddle yard. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, so I have some pics of mockups, both physical and 3d designed (in reality, each building will have 12 or 13 window slices, not the 4 depicted in the sketchup render! The cardboard and tape mockup whilst I couldn't sleep, based on part of the real works (pic below) 3D render of how the backscene will incorporate into the works and visa versa. (Will have about 12 or 13 windows each will the 2 buildings!) Finally an overview of how it'll look from the side - I'll probably end up adding an extra piece of backscene along the width anyway, which will help keep the board rigid As always, comments and criticism welcome Cheers Andy

Ha! I must have misread it! Happy New Year Everyone! I've been experimenting with ballast covering, and I'll be the first to admit I'm not entirely happy with what I've done. I've followed Chris Nevard's (the gold standard of modelling) guide, but haven't been able to replicate his work yet! I started with scrap wood, cork and spare bits of track. I forgot to take a pic of just before I applied paint, but I did get a WIP! I've tried to do the following: Top right track - Das Clay Bottom right - Das Clay on shallow ballast, Shallow Ballast and finally just ballast Left track - Das Clay on fine shallow ballast, Shallow fine Ballast, and fine ballast I sprayed the track with roof dirt, with a splash of sleeper grime, I've dry brushed with a bit of white, and then used weathering powder, "smoke" and black" - again, I don't think I've got the colouring right, but I do like the shallow fine Ballast. I don't want to use real ash as it's quite corrosive. I think I need to use some specific ash ballast from one of the manufacturers, - I quite like the look of Peco's cinders and ash ballast: Above you can see my "Attempts" above, mine is definitely too light - any comments/criticism/suggestions welcome! Finally, shunting with Number 19 has been rather fun! I need to "reset" the kadees on the wagons, and add some weight to them as they tend to "stick" together a bit! Finally, a link to No.19 crossing 3 points in a row without stalling, I love electrofrogs! https://imgur.com/a/f4KZWk7 Cheers Andy

I think I know which building you mean! I saw it on the way to Horwich Works and thought "That's very industrial, I'll go have a look!" unfortunately the light was fading, and traffic was building up at the time so couldn't get a decent picture, but Google earth to the rescue! I had no idea it used to be a canteen/coppersmiths/dodgy daycare! Thanks for sharing Am Glad to see I'm in good company! (Great minds and all that!) Cheers Andy

Welcome to my layout topic on Horwich Loco Works Hi all, (WAR AND PEACE WARNING, SCROLL TO BOTTOM FOR PICS) In this thread, I'll be documenting my building, bodging and lacklustre skills in building my first proper layout in about 7 years. What are the requirements for the Layout: -Must be built "Exhibitable" (if I'm lucky enough to be invited to one!) -Must use fine scale track -Must fit in the back bedroom -Must have inspiration from a real place -Must fit in a MK1 Ford Focus Why Horwich Loco Works? First off, I'm a Lancastrian. The story begins with my inglenook shunting "plank" built on the longest shelf that B&Q stocked, this featured bullhead rail and my first attempt at wiring up electrofrog points, as well as my first foray into kadees and uncouplings. This plank has worked well, and not so well, but I learnt plenty that I'll take forward to this new layout. For my new layout, I wanted to continue the inglenook puzzle, but add a couple of bits on for added interest, which you'll see in the track plan in a bit. I wanted to still use bullhead, but with limited space, and not having skills to build my own, nor wait for Peco Medium bullhead points, I've decided on finescale FB rail instead. "But Horwich was a loco works! You even said it earlier on in your war and peace essay" You are correct. However, in the 60's, Horwich started to also build and repair wagons, as well as the refurbishment of DMUs and EMUs. This is the era I will be basing my layout on. I would also like to be able to run a bit of L&Y stock should the mood take me there, but that's for a later date. I build a lot of wagon kits, so the next challenge will be building wagons in various states of repair, eg, bits cut out ready to be welded, fresh planked vent vans for repainting etc "Why didn't you just model Newton Heath, the actual Wagon works of the L&Y?" Another good question, and I did consider it. The only thing that stopped me was it was closed as a wagon works in the 30s I believe (I could have done a 'what if it didn't close') the 2nd to last nail in the coffin was there doesn't appear to be anything left of it! (The final nail was that Newton Heath L&Y FC became Manchester United, and I'm a Leeds fan for my sins) I've been throwing the idea for this layout in my head for about a year or so, give or take, looking on Google maps has images of Horwich Works, and the buildings there..... until recently. I hadn't realised they'd torn down the huge building that was left earlier this year. I was gutted. I quickly took screenshots before they were updated and removed from Google earth. From the satellite images above, it appeared to have a small building left. Unable to decide what it was, I thought "f**k it" and drove there. Alas, the huge building was gone and is a site for new housing estate I believe. However, there was a building left, of similar design to the 'biggun' and it was being used to store various roadwork equipment (signs, portacabins, flatbeds etc) I wasn't sure if I should be there, but decided to test my luck and just go and take pictures, plus measure up some of the building, like windows, bricks, distances etc. I was left alone and got back in the car and drove off with my photos and measurements. I find it hugely ironic that the sign going into Horwich says "Welcome to Horwich, a Famous Railway Town" - which has just demolished a large part of that history. I wanted the building measurements to use as a low relief for the backscene of the yard, and for a couple of smaller buildings I've moved around from the original plans. I calculated I needed about 50 window modules, Rather than go insane and build 50 modules and a second mortgage to buy the brick plastic card, I figured I can 3D design it once, and get it printed 50 times - far cheaper in time and money! - More on this later. A member of the model club owns a 3d printer and has helped with the printing and advice on how to proceed, he has a stunning N-Gauge layout, "Coke town" which you should absolutely see if you get the chance. (I think he's on here, but not sure!) Here is the 3d work I've been designing on sketchup, it's been through a few iterations to get the mortar tolerances right, needs a bit more work, but it's getting there: The track plan is a bit fictitious. the buildings did exist, but "not necessarily in the right order" , but allows for operational interest, essentially, it's a "hidden" inglenook, with a couple of kickback sidings for operational interest, and to add extra challenges. It'll consist of 2 standalone buildings, the Paint shop, and the wagon repair shop. The fiddle yard will technically also be a building, but will be to bring stock on and off the layout. Right now, I have the baseboards built from 9mm Ply, each board being 40inchx17inch First job was to PVA the ply and apply the 6mm* cork to the top. I've used every single weight I could find to ensure that it sticks to the board, and short of me sleeping on it, did the job. *6mm Cork, are you mad?! Unrelated yes, but the reason is for kadee magnet uncouplers. Rather than me have to mill out some of the ply board to fit them in, I've made the Cork thicker so no baseboard modification is required. Seems the simplest solution to the problem. I could have used neodymium magnets, but I find them fiddley and can physically pull your wagon off the track via the kadee tail. The track was ordered from a combination of places, roxley models, who had every point/fishplates I needed at a very competitive price, and shipped very quickly, and Hattons, for the code 75 flexitrack as they were the only place I could find that did them individually, rather than in a big box. I'll also be using Lanarkshire Models buffer kits of the L&Y design. From scale model scenery, I've bought dummy fishplates to use on my track for that jointed feel! I've also ordered a piece of Z-Scale track for the representation of the small gauge track that went around the site, and "Wren" (now in the NRM) that was there until '62. It used to drive around with wage packets in a dedicated wagon! Whether I can build a working model of Wren is yet to be seen, but a static one should be possible. Here's a pic of 1 of 2 jinty's that will be the main shunters for the layout, as they were they last ones there until '65 (They'll need renumbering, and the earlier emblem, and shed code, 99H) You can see the prototype windows in the background, I think will look quite effective when I have a few more printed up and painted. I'll also be using my modellers license and using a few other exL&Y/LNWR/LMS locos shunting the yard. There's a pic of 1008 in L&Y livery there either in the 60's or 70's, and I will absolutely be putting my model on there amongst the stock. You'll notice I've painted the cork in a matt grey colour, and cut the cork out for the kadee magnets. I haven't fixed them down yet as I need to tinker with their position. I've been wiring up the rest of layout, mainly the points, and am happy to say they work - I'm using seep point motors and am using the "seep peg method" and they're working well! My control panel isn't permanent, I want to make a proper one, but his will do for testing. It was important to make the wiring loom long enough so the panel can in theory be hung from the front or the back. I've probably overdone it with wiring in general and should have used busbars on each board and linked them with one wire, rather than dragging looms of wires over to the other board. It works for now and is relatively neat, so will leave until I show everyone at the model club and they laugh in my face at my longwinded wiring, and am forced out of embarrassment to change. I've been running no.19 (L&Y pug) up and down the Layout Playing trains to work out the kinks - more playing testing will be needed before I commit to scenics. Speaking of scenics, I'm unsure of where to go next - there will be small concreted sections around where the buildings are, but other than that, from pics I've seen, it really was just a "yard" mostly ballasted from ash, but the whole area wouldn't have been ash would it? I was thinking ash scatter around the tracks, and das clay in the 6ft between tracks, if that makes sense? Advice would be appreciated I mentioned earlier about using the lanakshire buffer stops - these have been completed and weathered, which you'll see below. The were superglued together, and then painted with rust coloured enamels, coated in hairspray, then painted with white acrylics , once dry, I wet the paint with a brush and peeled away the paint to reveal the rusty undertones, and further weathered with sleeper grime and weathering powders. The only one I'm not sold on is the wooden buffer in L&Y Red (right), as I've tried to show it as "old" wood - which if you look, goes a whitish/grey shade, but because the grain isn't on the casting, doesn't quite look right. It may grow on me yet, or 'll chnage it out for a metal buffer stop instead. (pic taken from "Horwich Locomotive works" by M.D.Smith) Thank you for taking the time to read, apologies for the war and peace, but needed to get this posted now before I made too much progress on the layout! Cheers, Andy

Hi Tom, Looking forward to seeing more of your work! If your previous layout is anything to go by, we're all in for a treat! Cheers, Andy

Hi all, Recently bought what I thought was a "fowler" tender (3500 gal) as another variant (riveted), (as opposed to flush riveted) to the ex-Airfix ones that come with the 4f and 2p. Have looked online, but need some clarity from the experts! The "larger" one is from the Hornby Patriot The smaller one is from the Hornby 4f (ignore the bar I've put on the front - I've removed the motor from it) Both appear to have the same wheel base and wheel size. Realise the bigger one has coal rails - but is bigger/taller even without these Pics below show the differences: Are they both 3500 Gallon tenders? Are they the same design, but the smaller tender is "inaccurate" and too small?, ie, a product of airfix tooling if they are the same, when were they re/built to which design? Kind regards Andy

Wow. I genuinely thought you'd photoshopped your model to the background. I scrolled through them and realised you hadn't! I even shouted out "F**k off?!" because of realistic it is. You have a serious talent my friend. As others have said, instantly recognisable as Talylln. If I can be half a good a modeller as you, I'll be very happy! Keep up the good work, loving the pics Cheers Andy

Hi all, I know there was a thread from 2018, so please don't link to that if possible please. I emailed Brian on the 15/7/21 but had no reply from him. Today, I've emailed again with my requirements so hoping to get in touch. I've also been ringing throughout the day on the number he provides on his website but it rings out. Has anyone been able to get in contact with him this last/month/know if he's still trading? Kind regards Andy

Glad to see you back Tom, some stunning modelling going on here, like the illustrations are coming to life! Cheers, Andy

Hello all I'm currently building a load of Parkside 16T diagram 1/108 mineral wagons. (Hauling coal may I add!) As the title suggests, how knackered/rusty should they be? Layout is based 50s to mid 60s. I know British Leyland Cars used to rust in the showrooms, but hopefully these mineral wagons lasted a bit longer! Paul Bartlett's site comes up with mainly 68 onwards where wagons are in a very poor state! The book by David Larkin "Wagons of the Middle British Railways Era: A Pictorial Study of the 1955-1961 Period" again, has pictures from the 70s. I don't want to overdo the distressing of the wagons, as it'd look odd for a wagon that was built in '52 to look on its last legs a few years after It was built! Can anyone shed some light on pictures or books that might be of some use? Kind regards

They say the silliest question is the one you don't ask, so here goes.... Would "man with the chalk" write on both sides of the wagon, or just one side? I suspect it's just the one side, but I'll ask the question anyway as I haven't found the answer! Kind regards Possy

My apologies, hadn't even thought of Wigan! (feel a right t!t now!) I fear I may have been out in the bank holiday sun a bit too much today! Need to get me some books on the subject, and the Lancashire area.

The million dollar question! it had occurred to me that it could be the "sticky wicket". I'll just have to buy more wagon kits XD. in fairness, as you say the post war wagons, with the introduction of the steel bodied wagons the wooden ones would be phased out, so I hopefully wouldn't need as many. Again, thanks all for the advice, for instance, the coal arriving via boat is an interesting concept. I'm modelling somewhere in the North West of England, so my "main sources" of coal are places like copy pit, (and many others in the Burnley, Nelson and Blackburn, plus Haig Colliery in Cumbria as a possible stretch. Obviously, places like Liverpool and Preston Docks would be contenders as to where my coal could come from also.

Thanks Gents, certainly some things to reflect on, and plenty of information to digest. Think I need to expand my library and get some books on this, so thank you for the recommendations. thanks again!

Hello all, me again! I'm currently modeling 2 eras of rolling stock - Pre Nationalisation and nationalisation. (Debating having 1 side of the wagon Pre Nationalisation and other side Nationalised! Pre Nationalisation Questions My understanding is that companies like gas works/factories/private owners etc required coal and would more often than not have their own branded wagons, which would be sent to the colliery, filled up and then sent to their respective factory etc. I've seen a few pictures of rakes and rakes of colliery owned wagons (not internal ones).... but where did these go? Could they be tacked on to orders from these factories, or sent to coaling plants for engine sheds? Would you see rakes of colliery wagons at loco coaling plants? The big 4 had their own coal wagons, so presumably they'd send those to the colliery to be filled up with coal too? (Loco coal wagons, but also non loco coal wagons for contacts with other businesses/factories also?) Did they work in block trains or were they sent to marshalling yards, split up and sent off to wherever they were needed in a mixed goods, and then returned empty (eventually) on another train? If the above is true, how far would they go? As I know certain coals are better for certain jobs, like anthracite coal. How far would a collieries own wagon go to supply the customer? Nationalisation Questions So after WW2, all coal mines effectively become the NCB. The wagons, as discussed in the other topic, all come under BR, and I'm assuming they also get the P prefix to their wagons also, and would be spread all over the network? Sorry if I've posted a lot in a short time! Some of this has been keeping me awake at night trying to Google answers! Thank you for taking the time to read Kind regards

Hi all, Have had a search through the existing threads, so apologise if this has already been answered. As we know, when BR was born, most Private owner stock was retained by them from the war effort. Obviously, they weren't all painted over night, if at all, but most did at some stage, receive a new number with the "P" prefix. How did wagon works decide what number the wagons got? Most private owners, from what I've seen had their own numbering system, often adding 100 or 1000 in front to make it seem as though their 4 wagon fleet was much bigger than it actually was! Was it a random number, or did 7 planks have a 7 at the start, 5 planks a 5 etc? I guess what I'm asking is was there any logic to the renumbering? Thanks for your time

Hi all, I'm currently in the process of building a "generic" engineering ballast train, roughly, (Western to Midlands) up to the mid/late 1950's (just after the introduction of the Dogfish) As such, I've bought the fantastic book by D.Larkin "Civil Engineering Wagons Vol 1", whereas it has answered a few questions, it has also given me some more questions! The first question is, Ex-revenue wagons were used as ballast spoil wagons, when were these introduced? The earliest picture I can find is from 1963. Would Tunny's, Lings Starfish and Grampus have been used for the spoil? If the above weren't used? (or as well as?) Or were they also used to spread ballast? I apologise if these questions have been answered before, I did do a quick search but didn't come up with anything! Thanks for taking the time to read!

Hi all, currently building a parkside pc21 (16 T mineral wagon) I'm looking at the transfers and see the number, the v for the door, and white stripe, but I don't know what the 7-15, 7-8 7-9 mean? (I'm sure I've seen these on other wagons) Is it empty and fully loaded weight? What are these numbers for, how do you determine what goes on your wagon? pic of the offending transfers, circled in red! Thank you for your time!

Thank you all for your swift replies! I will have to rethink the project, but can modify it hopefully into a BR unfitted example? Did BR build said Brake vans unfitted? Or were they all fitted? I have seen some on preserved lines in Grey. Again, what were the differences between the fitted and unfitted br versions? Thanks for your time! Andy

Hi all, I'm currently in the process of building the kitmaster/airfix/Dapol BR 20 ton brakevan. I wish to bakedate it to an LNER example, unfitted. What differences are there in design, other than removing vacuum pipes and tank will I need to do? Visually, I can't see much other than the colour! Thank you for your time, Andy

Hi Robert. I think you've been quite rude to be honest. Like others have said, it's not about having the "Balls" but rather you put a vague post out and waited for people to come to you. 'If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain' There are people on here that do commisions etc, you just have to find them.... not he other way around. It's not a hard livery to do. I did it the police 37 around a similar age, ,maybe a tad older than your son. It could be a nice project for you both to do together, seeing as though the paints you'll need are available at Halfords, and some good lining/painters tape. I carefully painted the "Police" on my 37. If I had the time, effort or inclination again, I'd use transfers. Transfers wise there are Fox who do general lettering. I suggest looking on their site for the ones you need. Good Luck "Mallard gets pulled for speeding"